Why Crucifixion?

[Tibby]

I want the Church of God to resemble a Body, not a battle field. Is that so ignorant? I’m happy to debate Doctrine with my brothers and sisters in Christ, but they have to come to the realization that we are Christians like you. We believe in the same God, and the bible is our Holy Text. Let us both put the insults aside, maybe we can discuses this. You didn’t know that Sirach was book in our bible, maybe there are other thing you don’t know or misunderstand about us. The Catholic Church is very detailed, there are Catholics who don’t even understand it, so it is only natural many Christians do not either.

What is your Denominational Affiliation, my friend?

[Broken]

Oh dear, I didn't mean to start a denominational debate!

Personally I follow the Anglican line on this one The deuterocanonical books (its better to call them that than apocrypha, otherwise you get confused with Enoch and the like) are good to read, but not on the same level as the rest

I like Sirach, anyway. There is a lot of good stuff in there. As I said, its like a really long Proverbs. Why don't you have a read of it, Saved_4Ever? No harm in reading.

[Tibby]

Oh dear, I didn't mean to start a denominational debate!

That is ok. It isn’t your fault. We are getting a little off topic here.

Personally I follow the Anglican line on this one The deuterocanonical books (its better to call them that than apocrypha, otherwise you get confused with Enoch and the like) are good to read, but not on the same level as the rest

As you said, a really long proverb, right? Most of it all are just repeats of previous OT books. Still… lol, I’m fighting THAT battle down in the apologetics front.

I like Sirach, anyway. There is a lot of good stuff in there. As I said, its like a really long Proverbs. Why don't you have a read of it, Saved_4Ever? No harm in reading.

Yes, maybe if those who hate the Catholics that will grow to see their Catholic Brothers in a whole different light. If nothing else, the Catholic's "extra" books are a good read.

[Saved_4ever]

Yes, maybe if those who hate the Catholics that will grow to see their Catholic Brothers in a whole different light. If nothing else, the Catholic's "extra" books are a good read.

Sorry fiction isn't currently on my list of reading at the moment.  I looked in a catholic bible and could not find your sirach.  Wonderful you've added even more.  I won't call you brother because you aren't.  If you disagree with the catholic church you need to leave it.  If you do not disagree with it it's painfully obvious you aren't reading your bible or just flat out refuse to believe it.  There is no other name under heaven by which one must saved other than Christ Jesus.  Mary can't help you neither can dead "saints".  The pope is far far FAR away from infallible and your constant worship of idols and such is quite sickening.  These are all facts of the catholic church written in your own "holy" books.  There is no misunderstanding at all.  At least the protestants knew to seperate from that horrid group.

[Broken]

Its sometimes called other things, Saved_4Ever. I've seen Sirach called Ecclesiasticus instead.

[asaph]

You can stay ignorant all you want.  There's nothing you can say to make me believe outside of the bible.  That's what your paganism is.  Outside the bible.  Good to know the catholic curch finally decided purgatory doesn't exist.  It's good to know we can chnage and make things up at will so long as the pope says so.

1 Corinthians 8
1   Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2   And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3   But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1John 3
10   In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11   For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12   Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Luke 10
25   And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26   He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27   And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28   And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29   But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Good Question.

asaph

[Tibby]

Sorry fiction isn't currently on my list of reading at the moment.  I looked in a catholic bible and could not find your sirach.  Wonderful you've added even more.  

Its sometimes called other things, Saved_4Ever. I've seen Sirach called Ecclesiasticus instead.

Yes, just like Revelations is also called Apocalypse.

I won't call you brother because you aren't.  If you disagree with the catholic church you need to leave it.  If you do not disagree with it it's painfully obvious you aren't reading your bible or just flat out refuse to believe it.

I read, in fact I personal bible in NIV. I am your brother, and I recently came to Catholic after spending time Charismatic.

There is no other name under heaven by which one must saved other than Christ Jesus.  Mary can't help you neither can dead "saints".

I know. We all know. That is the core Doctrine of the Catholic belief, as we put in the Apostles Creed. Mary cannot save us, and same with the Saints. This is a common mistake about our beliefs. We do not pray to the Saints, we ask them to pray for us. Just because people don’t live on this Earth doesn’t mean they are not longer part of they Church, does it? Death has no power of us, death isn’t the end. It is no different then going into the Prayer board and asking you to pray for me.

The pope is far far FAR away from infallible

Infalliblity as defined by the Catholic Church is so much different from the lies people say it is. When was say the “pope in infallible” we mean more than exemption from actual error. Think of it this way, let us say, hypothetical, the Pope IS infallible and is taking a Trig Test with 100 questions We he

A. get divine answers from god
B. Answer them wrong
C. Turn the paper in blank

The Anser is C. Infallible doesn’t mean God gives him the answer all the time. All infallibility means is he cannot give the wrong answers in Ex Cathedra. He is, in his daily like far, far, FAR from being infallible.

and your constant worship of idols and such is quite sickening.

Not worship and not Idols. Reverence to icons.  Showing respect to the thing that represent the Might men of God. It is no different then when Believing not to allow the American flag to touch the ground. It is out of Respect for what the Flag represents. The stautes and pictures are no different from the Pictures of your relatives and loved ones you keep around the home and office to remind you of them.

 

These are all facts of the catholic church written in your own "holy" books.  There is no misunderstanding at all.

Please understand, we are Christians. We read the same New Testament you do, and we believe in the Apostles Creed just like you. We wrote the Apostles Creed, and we hold to it today.

At least the protestants knew to seperate from that horrid group.

At first, the Martin Luther and his group wanted to only change the Church, correct a few problems it had in the Middle ages. After Problems and mistakes and misunderstandings on both sides, they left as a last resort. They NEVER wanted to separate from us.

Now, what Denomination are you affiliated with? What makes your beliefs so much more “infallible” then that of the Catholics?

[Early57]

 Broken said "If you are overstuffed with food get up and vomit, and you will have relief (Sirach 31:21)"

God has never included in his word a disease that he wants you to partake of.

bulimia nervosa. Persons with bulimia nervosa, however, usually purge, fast, or do strenuous exercise after they binge eat. Purging means vomiting or using a lot of diuretics (water pills) or laxatives to keep from gaining weight. Fasting is not eating for at least 24 hours. Strenuous exercise, in this case, means exercising for more than an hour just to keep from gaining weight after binge eating. Purging, fasting, and overexercising are dangerous ways to try to control your weight.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-et02.html

Why does this disorder fall under Mental Health?

And does the Lord want us to be mentaly unstable?

So, therefore why would he have a disease for us to do that can lead to Death as a solution for over eating?

Which brings me to understand that Sirach is not part of Gods word, but an over zealous writer who wanted to find acceptence in his time period with his peers and they rejected him and his writings until the Catholic church found his writhings and added them to their version of Gods word thereby polluting the word of God.

[Broken]

Hey Early57,

The passage isn't advocating bulimia. Its actually talking about how you shouldn't eat too much - which is precisely what bulimics do when they binge.

It says that if you have eaten too much, so that you're in pain or discomfort, vomiting will help that. If you eat way too much food, I don't know about you but sometimes I know I find that my body simply rejects it and makes me throw up.

Thats all its saying, not that you should always binge and then vomit.

but an over zealous writer who wanted to find acceptence in his time period with his peers and they rejected him and his writings until the Catholic church found his writhings and added them to their version of Gods word thereby polluting the word of God.

There is nothing wrong with people writing books of wisdom to their kids. Which is all Sirach is.

And Sirach was in the Greek OT the apostles used. Hardly rejected.

[Early57]

I think that if I had a good friend that wrote some scriptures and I was writing some scriptures like Peter and Paul did,  and they Mentioned each other and Paul mentioned Tim, and Luke mentioned them all and all of them Forgot to mention their good friend Sirach.  I wonder why?

[Tibby]

I think that if I had a good friend that wrote some scriptures and I was writing some scriptures like Peter and Paul did,  and they Mentioned each other and Paul mentioned Tim, and Luke mentioned them all and all of them Forgot to mention their good friend Sirach.  I wonder why?

Gee, I wonder why as well. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the author of this book predates them all by 200 year… He is as much their “buddy” as you are to George Washington! I see what you were trying to imply. But where, in the bible or anywhere else, does it say being alluding to in the New Testament is a requirement for being in the Old Testament? If this is your only reasoning for why the “extra” books should not be in the bible, then maybe you are not as Sola Scriptura as you thought.

Then again, even if, contrary to the bible saying nothing about it, everything in the Old Testament HAS to be counted in the New Testament, then the deuterocanonical book are mentioned. Many times, as a matter of fact. Would you like a list? Taking only Sirach in to account, the very first reference would be Matthew 5:28, which is a reference to Sirach 9:8. Look it up. There are well over 100 references to Sirach. I can list them all if you would like me to.

[Broken]

I've heard of that principle before, Early57, but I'm not sure about it.

I mean, you could say that the Gospel of Thomas both quotes from the gospels, and they from it.....but you still wouldn't want it in the canon, would you?

And doesn't Jude quote from Enoch, of all things? But Enoch isn't in the canon either.

[Early57]

Isn't George Washington the guy on the ONE Dollar bill?  

So yes, he is "ONE" of my buddies and sometimes I even mention his name sake the President dude from 200 or 300 years ago.

The Apostiles did not even find it remotely in the question to mention his name or even make a little quote that he had made.   I wonder why?

And Jude mentioned that other guy who is still alive.  Thats a good reason to mention Enoch.  Sirach must have lived around the rebellion time for Israel after the Prophets had went silent and God had finished the Old Covenant.

[Tibby]

I've heard of that principle before, Early57, but I'm not sure about it.

I mean, you could say that the Gospel of Thomas both quotes from the gospels, and they from it.....but you still wouldn't want it in the canon, would you?

And doesn't Jude quote from Enoch, of all things? But Enoch isn't in the canon either.

Right on! Like I said, since we are talking about using the bible as the sole word of God, show me in the bible where is says what the requirements for being an Old Testament book are! I for one don’t want the Gospel of Thomas in my bible! And I think I speak for all of his in this case.

Isn't George Washington the guy on the ONE Dollar bill?  

So yes, he is "ONE" of my buddies and sometimes I even mention his name sake the President dude from 200 or 300 years ago.

The Apostiles did not even find it remotely in the question to mention his name or even make a little quote that he had made.   I wonder why?

And Jude mentioned that other guy who is still alive.  Thats a good reason to mention Enoch.  Sirach must have lived around the rebellion time for Israel after the Prophets had went silent and God had finished the Old Covenant.

You again ask “I wonder why.”  The New Testament doesn’t mention all of the Old Testament books! Some are just mentioned in passing, and they resemble quotes from the Old Testament Books. Same with Sirach. As I said before, many parts of the New Testament are clear quotes from Sirach. Sirach 29:11, and Matt. 6:19-20, for example. Or, Sirach 27:6 expanded upon in Matthew 7:16-20.

[Broken]

But that means, according to what you've been saying, Early57, that Enoch should be in the Bible.

Do you want Enoch in your Bible? Have you read it?