The Power of Satan

[Petro]

Petro,

Many thanks for all the info!

The one remaining that I have on this is related to your message

"Everyone that does not belong to Jesus belongs to the Devil, and the Devil, Satan, the Evil One does as he please with his own, because the scriptures teaches plainly that they are in bondage to sin"

If this is the case, when or how does an individual that belongs to Satan get to make a conscious effort to call out to Jesus for rescue?

Samson,

You have asked excellent questions, which really excersice the senses, and this is what Christians should excersice each other to do, to read, study and search the Word of God for the answers to questions, which come to mind in the course of everday living.

to your question;

...when or how does an individual that belongs to Satan get to make a conscious effort to call out to Jesus for rescue

The first thing that must be understood, is the portriat the bible paints, concerning those who are unsaved, lets see, what is says; (I am only going to give one or two verse to make the point, there are others which reinforce the teaching of these truths, but I will post the ones which clearly tell us

1.  Speaking, those who do not belong to Jesus,  are Spiritually dead in tresspass and sins; Eph 2:1-7,  Col2:13,

2.  And, Because they are dead spiritually they are unable to receive, know nor discern the things of God, because God is a spirit, and the things that pertain to God are spiritual.  1 Cor 2:14, Jhn 8:43.

3.  Because they are dead, they cannot see, neither hear, nor undertsand, this is why Jesus spoke in parables.  Mat 13:13-15, Jhn 8:43-47

4.  Spiritual understanding is not done with the physical brain (it is not like working up a math problem, although some seem to think so) since blindness is not only of the mind (2 Cor 4:3-4), but, of the heart Eph 4:18, and so spiritual things cannot be understood  unless God intervenes and,gives understanding Lk 8:10 and so,  Jesus said;

God must give seeing so that they can see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart,[/b].  Mat 13:15
And unbelief and blindeness is do to hardness of heart
Mk 16:14.

5.  But only when God gives ears to hear and eyes to see, and opens the  understanding that man can truly  understand the things of God written in the scriptures (Lk24:45), and it is done thru the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe God. (1 Cor 1:21)

Only then can anyone trust in Jesus, they must believe God Words spoken by His Son.. (Eph 1:13)  Jesus is the LIVING WORD

So, if ever you desire to know the sequence, there it is at verse 13, consider the disciples of Jesus, they all believed in God, but did not believe in Jesus (Jhn 14:1), and it wasn't until after He rose from the dead that they believed HIM, some imediately on the same day He arose, other days later, the sciptures are clear about this. see (Mk 16:14, Jhn 2:22, Jhn 20: Thomas believed (and repented) in Jesus, 8 days after the reseurrection (Jhn 20:25-26)

Not all people come to faith in Jesus at the same time they trust in Gods Word, but when they do  trust His Words spoken by Jesus, He gives them the wherewithall to believe in Jesus, to the saving of the soul.  

Man cannot produce this type of FAITH.  Thou some would have you believe this.

So, the answer to your question is;  When they believe Gods words spoken by Jesus. He gives eyes to see, ears to hear, and understanding in the heart to percieve, that they might be converted and be healed (Isa 6:9-10)

In essence they pass from death unto life; (Jhn 5:24-25), Jesus delivering them from the power of darkenss to the kingdom of His dear son.(Col 1;13)

In another discussion the following verses are used to describe being set free by Christ;

2 Tim 2
24  ..... the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And this is clearly speaking of believers, who have fallen into sin.

That would have to mean that:

1. Satan does NOT have complete control but that God has complete control and that Satan only THINKS he has complete control.

2. Satan DOES have complete control and a lost individual has no chance until God decides it's time to draw him to Christ, in which case Satan's hold is temporarily broken until the individuals decides to heed the call of God to accept Jesus, or not.

If "1" is true, then an individual who has yet to accept Christ has no recourse, no power, no ability to choose... no free-will?

But wait, if number "2" is true then... no free will either?

So, who has control, Satan or God? How much control over his decisions does an individual have?

Thanks again!

God Bless,

-Samson  

samson,

Do not be decieved by doctrines of men, this is what Jesus commanded, if you allow yourself to be deceived you become as a child of disobedience.(Eph 5:6-8)

Free will is a pipe dream, taught by those who, do not recognize the great truths of scripture, if men are dead spiritually speaking, they are completely helpless to decide anything, you must decide to believe what is true, either man is dead or not, if not then, I suppose he could will (make no mistake about it, men can believe all sorts of different things, but they will never believe God, that is what God says, and He should know, [Rom 3:10-14])

, himself to believe something, but there is no support for this theory in scripture.

If men are dead, then Satan has complete and total control over them, and this is clearly taught by scripture at (Eph 2:1-9)

I have never heard of a dead man, being able to will himself back to life again.  

It can only happen by the supernatural intervention of God, calling that individual to life just as Jesus did to Lazarus . (Jhn 11:43),

If it is true we were dead in tresspass and sins before God saved us, then He did it all, there is nothing we did that got us saved.

He chose, He called, He gave saving Faith, He gave Eternal Life. He will preserve, He will raise us up our bodies again at the last day.

And this can only be if you believe the truth of Gods Word!

Blessings,
Petro

[smartinez1984]

Petro,

Sorry for the late reply... this thing called a job keeps getting in the way...

Thanks for the insight as well.

All the info you give indicates that man does NOT have free will. But at the very end you say that man must believe in order to be set free. How can that be the case if there is no free will?

Sorry, just confused.

-Samson

[Petro]

Petro,

Sorry for the late reply... this thing called a job keeps getting in the way...

Thanks for the insight as well.

All the info you give indicates that man does NOT have free will. But at the very end you say that man must believe in order to be set free. How can that be the case if there is no free will?

Sorry, just confused.

-Samson

samson,

The word believe, is used synonmously with the word trust, they can be and are used interchangeably in scripture since both in the greek can mean and do mean believe in the english.

Trust can be defined to believe without commiting ones self;

eg:  In the telling of a popular little story given by christians as an example while depicting a teaching of Saving belief,  christians make the point graphically, note;

"A certain man walking a tight rope high above the ground, pushes a wheelbarrow, back and forth several times, to the ammazement of the crowds below, at the end of every crossing, the question is given to the crowd, "Do you believe he is able to cross pushing the wheelbarrow one more time, and everyone answers; YES indeed."

Because all have seen him do it several times.  So it can be said they believe.

"Then the next question is asked of the crowd;

"Is there anyone who will climb into the wheelbarrow and allow him to push you across, while you sit in it?"

Only the person/s who, BELIEVE would do it.

I am sure this story has many spins to it, but the point is that, we can see two types of believing here;

1. Believing without committing oneself, those who had seeing him cross from one side to the other, believed because they had seen it with there own eyes. But no amount of coaxing will convince them to clinb into the wheelbarrow, yet they believe he can do it.

This is the way the Natural (unsaved) man lives his life..it is not the kind of FAITH the bible sepaks of when coming to God.

Ask yourself;

Can this type of belief save a person??

on the other hand, we have another type of belief;

2. Believing with commitment those who are willing to climb into the wheel barrow are as those, who show saving faith, they simply trust or believe such, that they have entrusted or committed their very lives to the man pushing the wheelbarrow, who in this case depicts God.

Belief with commitment is likened to SAVING FAITH, no man is able to produce it on his own because, of his sipritual condition, it isn't until God does a supernatural sanctifying work in the individual that any man can come to this kind of faith.

It is the product of Gods GRACE, and both Grace and Faith (however Grace is Gods Mercy and Longsuffering not the product of belief, since it is given as sanctification while yet in unbelief and dead in tresspasses and sin) are given to man, because Grace doesn't begin with salvation, but when God begins drawing that individual to himself thru His LIVING Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I will show you the scriptural basis for these to types of belief later, when I have time.

I have to break it off , now since I just received word; my 90 year old father fell and was taken to the ER for a series of cat scan.


See you...........

Petro

[smartinez1984]

Petro,

My prayers are with your father...

God Bless,

-Samson

[Tog_Neve]

Very good topic, and one that relates to a study I am in currently.  Called Bondage Breakers.  Highly recommended.

Some points I think need to be touched upon though that I agree and disagree with.

It would appear that the consensus is that Satan can only provide outside influences and not “possess” people.  I disagree with this for several reasons.  
-   We know possessions have happened, Jesus himself cast out demons.  
-   However a man possessed is not accountable for the actions that have happened in God’s eyes.  If Satan or one of his minions were to possess someone and kill 30 people, God would not hold that person accountable for the death of the 30 people for it was not that mans actions that did the killing, but Satan’s.  
-   Satan gains much more in tempting a person to commit sin because then that person did it of their own free will.  
-   Satan is not omnipotent and thus can only be in one place at a time…so his possession abilities are limited, unless he wants to do it for the long haul and take over someone for their life…which means he loses influence in other areas.

Another comment as far as Satan only providing outside influences and not entering into our minds directly to influence and such.  I do not agree with that because even a righteous man may have a lustful thought when a temptation is provided before them.  But it is the truly righteous man who overcomes that thought and cast it from his mind.  You are walking down the street and see a wallet laying on the ground with $20’s barely showing from the money section of the wallet.  There are thoughts that enter the mind that make one look around to see if anyone is watching and possibly pull the cash and drop the wallet.  I am not saying that there are not thoughts of simply looking at whos wallet it is and trying to contact that person either.  But both may enter the mind and it is up to the righteous man to cast out those that are obviously not of God and do as God would desire.  

I agree with the comments of what we should do about it and how to protect ourselves from it.  But one thing to always remember that we as Christians (for those that are) we are under a greater attack by Satan those who are not.  Those that are not are already in Satan’s clutches and it is our job to provide a shining light to those in darkness through our actions and lives.  If Satan can tarnish our living by tempting us with sin then there is untold damage that can be wreaked upon the unbelieving, as well as other believers.  Satan knows he cannot take us from God, but he also knows that if he wrecks us then we cannot effectively bring more people to God.

[smartinez1984]

Hmm... not sure if I agree with the ability of Satan to enter the mind of an individual that has been redeemed. I believe we are forgetting that our sinful human nature causes us to have evil thoughts from the INSIDE, not Satan. Remember, as long as we are alive in this human flesh we are in constant battle with this flesh, this flesh that wants to do wrong. I believe the apostle Paul makes that known, doesn't he?

Too often, I think, we give credit to Satan and his demons for actions that we commit out of our own sinful nature.

I would tend to believe, at least for now (still studying, researching), that Satan will attempt to deceive us, to lure us into evil actions, etc. from outside (as Christians). I don't believe he has the power to enter the mind, soul, or body of a Christian unless he/she turns against God and basically opens the door again.

Am I wrong here?

God Bless,

-Samson

[2nd Timothy]

I tend to agree samson.

With Christ living in our hearts, Satan cannot enter us.  He can only enter an empty habitation.

Mar 3:25  And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26  And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mar 3:27  No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

And of course, greater is He that is IN ME than HE that is in the world.  Satan cannot bind the holy spirit of Christ living within us and spoil his house.  This does not apply to unbelievers.  Their house is empty.

Now if a house is swept clean, or a person possesed has that spirit cast out of him, he must invite the holy spirit to move in.  Otherwise, we have the following verse...

Luk 11:24  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luk 11:25  And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.  (noticed, its not occupied)
Luk 11:26  Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

And also like you say, we still suffer in our own corrupt flesh, and are tempted of our own desires.  Satan himself will tempt us at times too.

Grace and Peace!

[Tog_Neve]

And I agree that I do not believe Satan can, or would, "enter" a Christian in the terms of possession.  What I refered to is that Satan can place sinful thoughts into our minds.  Not only can he put a temptation before us he can try and influence us as well.  When Peter was told of Jesus' pending trials in Jerusalem, Peter pulled Jesus off to the side saying that may it never be so, you should never suffer.  This after Jesus told Peter he would build His church upon the rock of Peter.  Peter is considered 'saved' already.  But what does Jesus tell Peter after being rebuked by him?  "Get behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men"

Jesus recognized that it was Satan's influence that drove Peter's words and not God.  We are told that Peter rebuked Jesus, his actions were harsh and off the cuff.  This is what Satan likes to do is try and make us speak before thinking of our words.  James tells us that our faith will produce patience.  Satan is quick and tries to make us react quickly, for he knows that a quick reaction to trial or tribulation can often lead to man exposing his sinful nature and not his spiritual nature.

By having a sinful nature does not mean that we have the natural desire to go out and kill someone but yet we hold it back.  Our sinful nature is that we want to put our own judgement over that of God.  We want to put our trust in ourselves and not that of God.  Our nature is to put our will over that of God's.  

This example is one of many that the Bible shows us where man likes to put his own judgement over that of God.  Peter at this point already understood who and what Jesus was.  But yet here in spur of the moment when told that Jesus was to suffer he jumps up grabs Jesus and pulls Him to the side and rebukes Him that He should never suffer...Satan is recognized as the author of the rebuke, that Peter did not think of what he knew, nor did he trust that God had a plan and Jesus was there for that Plan.  Satan probably put thoughts immediately into Peter's head like "WHAT!  Your Saviour cannot die, He cannot be put through pain and suffering! What good will that do for me or for anyone! I must stop Him and tell Him that does not have to be!"  

Later we also see that Peter recognizes the effects of Satan in his denial of association with Christ.  Satan tries to play on our self driven fears.  Peter is told that he will deny Christ 3 times.  But in Peter's fear of persecution he rejects that he is with Christ.  Peter was told he would do this so he knew it was coming.  He feared persecution and let that fear drive his 'knee-jerk' reaction when asked by 3 people that were of no real relevance he said he did not know Christ.  We see his fear building by the reactions he has.  Satan playing in his mind feeding the fear and bringing up things like "What a coincidence that this maiden asked me if I know Christ, she must be someone with the Jews looking to persecute me"  Then when asked again in the same day, "WOAH, 2 people asking me the same thing?!  Watch out, they are really out looking for us."  And on this second inquiry we see that he swore on an oath, and not a simple no.  Then the third time someone mentions he talks like follower of Christ, Peter thinks "I am a dead man, they will hunt me down, they can recognize me by the way I talk!" And what does he do?  He starts talking like a sailor and saying he does not know Jesus.  Then God provides the oh so subtle reminder for him.  Cock-a-doodle-doooooo.  And it all comes crashing down for Peter.  And he was upset at himself for what he had done.  It says he went out and wept bitterly, not just wept but did it bitterly.  He denied his Lord, even when he was told he would do it, he did not keep his guard up and prevent Satan from working in his life, and he denied his Savior.  A trial that produced much wisdom in Peter, a trial like what James talks about as building our faith.  Peter as the rock was firmly planted in the foundation of Christ, and would not move from that spot.

Peter is a very good example of showing how Satan can still work in a Christians life.  Satan's influence is there.  Peter was not tempted by a pretty girl, or a pot of gold, but Satan brought out his nature of defining good and evil and placing his own judgement of what is right and wrong over that of God.  

[Sower]

Smartinez said -- I agree, interesting stuff!

Not "interesting stuff" but "serious business", Smartinez. Let's not underestimate the enemy, and let's not use incautious terminology. "Interesting stuff" is for the flesh. "Serious business" is for the spirit.

From the last few replies to this thread it appears that the general consensus is that Satan cannot ENTER the mind to manipulate it but that all of his work occurs from the outside, i.e. temptations, coersions, etc. This would mean that we have the power through Jesus Christ to overcome. I would imagine the same does not apply to those who are not saved, true?

Correct. Those who are not saved by grace and washed in the blood of the Lamb are still in the kingdom of darkness, "children of disobedience", and have no power over Satan.

On the other hand, the Children of Light [believers] have Christ within.  We can and should "resist" the devil by first humbling ourselves under the mighty hand of God (Jas. 4:7-10), then using the Word of God as the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:10-18), just as Jesus of Nazareth did in the wilderness when confronted by the enemy (Matt. 4).

What then of the previous verses relevant to Judas, etc.? It seems to imply/state that Satan took control somehow. Yet, one has to believe that there was always the opportunity for Judas to step back and say "No, I will NOT betray the Master!".

You are forgetting that Judas was "the son of perdition" or damnation which means that he was not a saved soul, therefore under the power of Satan.  Judas had not said in his heart, as Peter proclaimed openly "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God". Judas probably thought of Jesus as another rabbi or a misguided messiah.  We do not know. The opportunity for Judas to repent and be converted was always there, but instead he lifted up his heel against Christ as prophesied by David (Ps. 41:9).

But is that scripture stating somehow that Judas was possessed? If so, then Judas no longer had control over his mind and would have required someone with faith and power to cast Satan out, no?

When Judas made that fateful decision to betray his Lord, Satan took physical possession of Judas. Scripture states that very plainly. Judas was already self-condemned and then damned to Hell.

Is it correct to state that Satan always has the power (given by God) to tempt and coerse from OUTSIDE the body?

No, that statement is incorrect and misrepresents the situation. God "allows" His creature Satan a limited spehere of influence and a limited scope of action against any believer [just as in the case of Job], and never can the Evil One come within a saint, since the Holy Spirit -- God Himself - resides within the believer. "Ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost".  Satan cannot "coerce" anyone to do anything -- wether believer or unbeliever.  Satan is far more subtle.  He deceives and entices. When that fails, he shows his fangs.

Is it correct to state that Satan cannot TOUCH the body unless given explicit permission by God? In other words, he doesn't have free reign to touch us unlike he has free reign to tempt us. Maybe?

That is essentially correct. Satan as the tempter and deceiver of mankind goes about the earth like a roaring lion looking for prey.  The believer who is under the authority of Christ, yielded completely to the Holy Spirit, and fully submitted to the Word of God cannot be deceived or tempted by the Adversary.  However, when we allow the flesh to take control, Satan finds a way to manipulate us to sin.  When you see conflict and division among believers, you can be sure that the flesh is at work, and Satan is controlling and manipulating Christians like a master puppeteer.  When Paul called the Cornithians "carnal" [controlled by the flesh] that was exactly what was happening in Corinth -- strife and division among those who named the Name of Christ.