The Rapture:"Arose by any other name"

[2nd Timothy]

I still do not interprit this as you have shown Choobaca.  

Jesus told his deciples he was going away, and that they could not follow where he was going.  He was going back to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father, where the father dwells.  Granted he had not been crucified yet, but after he had been, we did not dwell with him, he dwells with us.

Eph 3:17
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; [...]
(KJV)

Joh 14:2  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

IN his fathers house.  Not where we are that he may be.

John 13:1
1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
(KJV)

Again clearly a place out of this world.  While mansion is only used in this place, and is the same greek used as abode in John 14:23 you have to really stretch these verses to mean abodes in individuals hearts rather than where heaven is and where the Father resides.  Yes it is a spiritual place, but before Christ died, it was still a place.  Where did the father reside before he resided in our hearts?  In heaven!  Jesus ascended into heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of the father.   When he returns he will receive us to himself that we may be where he IS, in his fathers house where he has gone to prepare a place for us.   To me it reads very easily.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

See:
Eph 2:6
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (this is our position now)

Compare Rom 6:5.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Future tense!  While spiritually we accept it, it has not happened yet.  

Compare set Him, Eph 1:20.
Eph 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Together in Eph 2:6 is ambiguous.  Render with Him, as Rev. “Even now we sit there in Him, and shall sit with Him in the end”  (taken from Vincents word studies)

Also
Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

We are not sitting with him on the throne just yet, although we are garenteed a joint seat with him when he receives us to himself.

....We are the Temple of the Living God and the Temple of the Holy Spirit after were saved. And so then, the "place" that Jesus prepares for us is entrance into the family  or household of God.

You are making my head hurt here...lol

So Tim, it seems to me that the "mansion" is on a spiritual plane, and not a pysical one.
Now still reaching into the future, I feel that if our bodies now are God's Temple, then what of our New bodies that we receive when Jesus comes. It says "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is". This seems to fit Jesus words "I will come again and receive you unto my self that wher I am, ye shall be also"
Note: "Where I am"...He did not say in Heaven, for He says He is coming again...From Heaven to Earth. See parallel in Acts 1:8-11.

I hope this helps you to see how I see it.

Acts 1:8-11 to me clearly shows where the Son will return in a like manner that he left to collect his bride.  I really don't know what to say here.  I have never heard anyone hyper spiritulize things as you have with these verses.  Sorry to disagree with you here, but I do.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

(He came. From where? Heaven at God's right hand. Where is He going? Back to earth (Acts 1:8-11 and 3:19-21)
Note, He continues to come. He does not return from whence He came (no text says He ever goes back to Heaven). So He meets with them, and then they change directions from whence they came. from Earth into the air, They receive new bodies, they are like Him, and they continue to Mt of Olives with Him. (Zech 14).(1 Thess 4)
Note also, that the door to salvation is shut.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

While I agree the this text does not say he goes back into heaven, it also does not say he comes all the way down to earth and touch the Mnt of Olives here as you seem to include.  While you tie Zech 14:4 into 1 Th 4:16-17 one could just as easily tie John 14:3.  This really depends on whether you aproach these verses with a pre-trib or post trib disposition.  As for the foolish vigins knocking on the door of heaven.   In Revelation Jesus says that HE stands at the door and knocks, any one who hears his voice and opens the door, he will come in and sup with him.   Oddly here, the foolish virgins who attempted to be religious with their outward religious showing of God (lamps without oil) will now be knocking on the doors of heaven and not be received.  

The word "door" =
strongs
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare “door”); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

Is closed.  There will by much knocking and prayer after the fact I assure you.   Not litterally on heavens door, but through prayer and pleading.   But that portal is opened and closed in the twinkling of an eye.  Only those who have oil (holy spirit) in their lamps will be changed and pass through the door.  The rest will face matyrdom to obtain their salvation.

I have always said there is enough scripture in the Bible to make a an argument for both views.  IMHO, scripture for pre-trib, and Gods known Character from early times of judgment seem to make a better argument for a pre-trib view.

Just like you, my feelings will not be harmed if you or anyone else disagree's, and I would not force anyone to take my view either.   It will happen just as Gods plan is intended to happen.  

The important thing is that we place our faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb that took our place on the mercy seat to satisfy Gods Judgment and Righteousness in our stead.

Grace and Peace!

[twobombs]

choobaca: confuzzzzing zstuff...   what are you trying to convey to me/us ?

Hi Two,

I'm trying to convey that the rapture is doctrinal and it is sequential with the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" and those that are alive and remain". And it happens at what we call the Second Coming which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days". It also follows with "The Day of the Lord per 1 Thess 5:1.

Hope this helps. If you have a particular question on any portion of what I posted, say on. You do not have to agree, but at least you know that I believe the Coming of the Lord is "postribulational" and no one on "Church ground will be left behind.

Be Blessed,
Frank

Hi choobaca,

First of all welcome to this part of the forum. Do not be alarmed at the critique some utter in regards to your (or anyone's) stance in Christ. I know a lot of forums but this one is the most open I've found until this day, and such short answers are one of the backsides of the openness.

In an answer to your invitation I would like to ask if you see the rapture and the second coming as the same event ?

For even though those 2 events are prone to be fullfilled in and around the same time, they are two separate events and the separation can be seen by the following signs:
- the separation of the following Jewish Feasts by 7-9 days :
     Rosh Hashana (an idiom for the rapture or: "no one knows the day or the hour" )
     Yom Kippur or: "the Day of Atonement" wich is an idiom for the Second Coming

- the Wrath : we as a nation of believing christians and jews alike are not appointed to wrath, so the wrath will not be for us; the Rapture will occur before the wrath; as we had faith. This is in my view not a guarantee that 'we' will not see the Trib, as most of the wrath occurs at the end of the Trib.....

The doctrine that places the Second Coming and the Rapture for the believing Church in one point in time came from 17th century Calvin I believe, and even though no one in the 17th century would live to see the day (other then in a resurrecton) this view is by todays standards obsoleted and has been reproven time-and-again.

But they are really 2 separate events. Even though they could be fullfilled days up to a few years after one another....  

Note: The Second Coming will also cause another rapture or "resurrection order" , but this is not the rapture of the believing church but the rapture of the trib saints and the remnant of Israel.

[Petro]

choobaca,

Welcome to the forum.

I read the entire study you shared, and enjoyed it, and found it very interesting, especially since this is one of the subjects, which is not understood definitively by the church, some believe they have it down pat, I know better having studied the scriptures for many years.

I am wondering if you are from brethern background?

There are some good passages with some good material given which we can chew on.

I do not find the explanation given to some of these verse, far fetched at all, since I see problems with the pre and mid trib point of view, and I do lean toward the post trib rapture , which I like to describe a pre wrath.

And the verse presented in opposition are not insurmountable with this view point.

For instance The scripture tells us that we will be kept from the hour of wrath, but not tribulation, in fact Jesus said it clearly;  

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (Jhn 16:33)

The Lords prayer ends with these words;

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

God does not tempt anyone, He tries them, but not with evil.

The apostle goes on to write;

Rom 5
5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

And then Brother James says;


James 3
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jesus said;

Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

And to the church to the angel of the chuch at Philadelphia he says;

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

There is nothing in these verse that say He will remove us during the our of temptation that visits and tries those who live of the earth all.

His wrath is that which we are promised to kept from, and it  is confused with tribulation, especially the great tribulation, the wrath of God (of the Lamb), begins with Jesus' return to the earth, this is what is referred to as "The Day of the Lord"
it is clearly a day of wrath(Zeph 1:15) and it begins on a litteral day at its begining in the evening, when there is neither light nor day and His return at the end of the Great Tribulation, which days are shortened for the sake of the  elects Mat 24:22.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Lk 22:37

Will be a reality in that day of resurrection at His return, to them that sleep, live, believe in Christ (Jhn 11:25-26)

And it is clear in Revelation all the wrath which is of God is poured upon the earth and its inhabitants after His return to earth at Rev 6:16-17.  Above all else we see, the wrath of the serpent being excersized by the serpent and his host upon the whole earth..

While some things are clear others are not, but that does not mean one should give up hope, and not continue seeking Gods will, I know His will is for us not to be caught unawares, that the day not come upojn us as a snare, this clear.

I say watch and pray..without ceasing..


God Bless,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Petro,

You and I have discussed this topic on length on another thread.  I was pondering your last post and have a few questions I would like to hear your thoughts on.

For instance The scripture tells us that we will be kept from the hour of wrath, but not tribulation, in fact Jesus said it clearly;

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (Jhn 16:33)

The Lords prayer ends with these words;

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

God does not tempt anyone, He tries them, but not with evil.

While there is a time such as the world has never seen coming in the future, this seems to imply that only those believers at THAT time will face tribulation.   The previous verses seem to be speaking of daily trials and tribulation.

bear with me...

The apostle goes on to write;

Rom 5
5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations

Plural...not that this couldn't include the great tribulation or the period of great tribulation...but still seems to be speaking of daily tribulations

also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

And then Brother James says;

James 3
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jesus said;

Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

And to the church to the angel of the chuch at Philadelphia he says;

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

There is nothing in these verse that say He will remove us during the hour of temptation that visits and tries those who live of the earth all.

Keep in mind that this hour of tribulation is not the same as tribulations mentioned above.  This is an hour of emmence tribulation that will come over those who live on the earth.  While there is not text that says He will remove anyone, it does say that he will keep this particular church from the hour of temptation that is going to happen to them who live on the earth.  Will he stop time for this church only?  Not that he couldn't...after all He is God, but it doesnt seem a far stretch to say here...

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Lk 22:37

While tribulation trys all believers daily, it seems odd to suggest that, that part of the bride who dwells on the earth during this time (not asleep or dead) would require emmence tribulation.   I suppose one could say that faith may be lacking the most during this time, which I think I could accept.  I do find verses that could agree with this.

Please expand a little more on this if you can.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

More thoughts about post trib view.

Thinking about the parable of the 10 Virgins a bit more.   Clearly this is speaking of a group of people that will miss an event which joins the groom and the bride.  In Coobaca's post he says that he does not see how these indviduals can come to heavens door to knock and be turned away.   I have expanded on this in a previous post, but another question that comes to mind now is, if this event is post trib, why would these individuals need to seek out the Lord, when those who are not part of the bride will be confronted with the Lord and his mighty army to be destroyed?   Seems to fit easier with being left behind, and seeking for salvation through prayer and tears wanting to be in heaven, but rather now, being forced to endure the times at hand.

Another question.

If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and destroy all the unbelievers as proposed by a post trib view, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium?   Who are those people who live outside the New Jerusalem during the Millennium?   In a post trib event, everyone who is caught up to be with the Lord, are the faithful ones, everyone left behind is not and are destroyed after the suggested U-turn.   Applying a pre or even mid trib view allows for souls to be saved through matyrdom as well a few who will survive who would not receive immortality which would account for those who live and die during the thousand years of Christ reign on the earth.

Just a few random thoughts on some of what has been discussed here.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

Petro,

You and I have discussed this topic on length on another thread.  I was pondering your last post and have a few questions I would like to hear your thoughts on.

For instance The scripture tells us that we will be kept from the hour of wrath, but not tribulation, in fact Jesus said it clearly;

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (Jhn 16:33)

The Lords prayer ends with these words;

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

God does not tempt anyone, He tries them, but not with evil.

While there is a time such as the world has never seen coming in the future, this seems to imply that only those believers at THAT time will face tribulation.   The previous verses seem to be speaking of daily trials and tribulation.

bear with me...

2d Tim,

I said before one cannot discuss the rapture unless they define who the saints are.

Are the saints the same as the elect??

If there were more scriptures that spoke clearly concerning these things, it might shed lite on the thought, which has become a teaching, that;  "that the church will not face tribulation, because they will be raptured."

But unfortunately we have to work with what we have;, and it is clear Christians will be living and dieing during the great tribulation on the earth.  Are they Saints??  

How do they differ from the Elect??, if they are not one in the same.

This is one of the problems I have with the pre, mid  trib rature teaching.

The church which is made up of the elect is divided (by pre tribr's)into those that suffer great tribulation unto death while others don't, and then if you follow the teaching further there is this teaching which goes on to teach those raptured will be married as the bride of Christ while the rest of the brethern are left behind in Great Tribulation on the earth, being persecuted and murdered for their faith in the Groom, who is enjoying His wedding feats.

Somehow this doesn't sound right.

Now, If Abraham,Isaac,Joseph, Moses,  David,  are not a part of the Bride of Christ the church, then there might something to this but, we read at;

Heb 11
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Although the scripture says, that Jesus has perfected forever them He sanctified by one offering (Heb 10:14), this does not mean we are perfect yet, if we live in Christ subjected to the Spirit, we can live a perfect life before Him in love, however, this perfection seems to me, comes when there is that perfect union of the Body of Christ, and if all these who are being perfected during the Great Tribulation are on the earth, their can not be a union of perfection, simply because some are lacking to be brought into the body, God only had one Son, and His body is the church .(Col1:24)

Then there is the multitude who are given white robes (vs 11), at Rev 6:9-11 revealed when the fifth seal is opened, these are defined as a great multitude at Rev 7:9 which no one could number clothed in white robes, identified as those "brethren, that should be killed"  at(Rev 6:11), and "came out of great tribulation", (Rev 7:13-14)

Now, if these are not the same group, what scriptures would you rely on to dispute this??

At Rev 6:12, the sixth seal is opened, and clearly this is the begining of a great day of wrath, and it is on the earth as men hide themselves from he wrath of the Lamb. (vs's 15-16)

Now where is Jesus at this time?  

And where is the rapture in relation to these seals??

Now continue reading and at Rev 7, it says; After these things, ............................what things??

All of those things of Chap 6 of Rev.

Petro posted;

Rom 5
5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations

Plural...not that this couldn't include the great tribulation or the period of great tribulation...but still seems to be speaking of daily tribulations[/quote

Tribulations come in all diferent sorts of ways, they are simply tribulations, the great tribulation is defined as

"such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

And no matter what is said about it, it is clear Christians go thru it.

also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

And then Brother James says;

James 3
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jesus said;

Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

And to the church to the angel of the chuch at Philadelphia he says;

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

There is nothing in these verse that say He will remove us during the hour of temptation that visits and tries those who live of the earth all.

Keep in mind that this hour of tribulation is not the same as tribulations mentioned above.  This is an hour of emmence tribulation that will come over those who live on the earth.  While there is not text that says He will remove anyone, it does say that he will keep this particular church from the hour of temptation that is going to happen to them who live on the earth.

Well I see Mat 24:21 as being indispensibly linked with;

 Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Somehow, I see the same language here as at Mat 24:21, and this hour is not the great tribulation but the hour of His wrath on the earth (there is another day of wrath, but those who have been sealed by His Spirit are presently delivered from that wrath, seeing their names are written in the Lambs Book of Life) .  

The pouring out of Gods wrath at Jesus return, lasts an hour of a day, if the Lords Day is the equivalence 1000 year reign on the earth, what is one hour?? equivalent to.

Now  look at this verse closely;

Mat 24
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In the lite of Rev 3:10, focusing on the words "dwell  upon the earth."

Makes it plain that the hour of temptation (is a day of wrath at the begining of His return)

If the rapture imdeately precedes the begining of the hour of His Temptation, this would explain, how believers are not dwelling on the earth at this time,

As for the great tribulation, my contention is that great Tribulation is not His day of wrath being poured out on the iinhabitants who dwell on the earth. Even though the Great Tribulation affects all.

This may be where the confusion lies.

When God pours out his wrath  upon the earth, must Jesus be present in bodily form??  I simply don't know?

How is this that far fetched, there are thinghs we understand and there are things we do not understand totally.

I just see all who are saved as saints and the church, and the elect, what I don't see is this division, some being the church other not being the church.


Blessings,

Petro


PS, I will look at the rest of your post later...

And I have heard the argument that goes soemthing like,

How can the groom beat up the bride before the marriage celebration?

This argument doesn't hold any water, if those dressed in white robes who came out of the great tribulation of Rev 6 & 7 are part of the church.

[2nd Timothy]

Twobombs,

I tend to agree that the catching away of believers and the Return of the Lord to earth are two separate events.   Matthew 25:13 Jesus says he will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).  From this we know the exact day of the beginning, mid and ending of the tribulation period.

I cannot find a way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here.
1. The rapture of the Church at an unknown time.
and
2. The return of Jesus to the earth at the mount of Olives at the end of the period.

I still agree that God can and will do as he pleases, but with Daniel and Revelation one can clearly mark 3 points during this 7 year period.  The only point during this period that allows for not knowing the day nor the hour is at the beginning, which could be anytime, requiring us to watch.  Anytime after the covenant is signed, anyone with a bible can count down the days to wrath, and glorious return of the Lion with fire in his eyes.

Immimency scripture forewarning us to be ready, along with keeping us from the hour (or escape), the blessed hope, God's preference for removing his people before dishing out Judgment, the unlikely need for a ready and waiting bride to be beaten up and tested when Christ has already taken our punishment on the cross, just does not make any sense to me.

Of course, not my wisdom, but Gods.  He will do just as he has it planned.  Maybe I am stretching scripture to make sense of it all?  While I can't find one verse that says it must happen before the 7 year period starts, I can find many that point to that possibility if not probability that it will.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

More thoughts about post trib view.

Thinking about the parable of the 10 Virgins a bit more.   Clearly this is speaking of a group of people that will miss an event which joins the groom and the bride.  In Coobaca's post he says that he does not see how these indviduals can come to heavens door to knock and be turned away.   I have expanded on this in a previous post,   Seems to fit easier with being left behind, and seeking for salvation through prayer and tears wanting to be in heaven, but rather now, being forced to endure the times at hand.

Another question.

If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and destroy all the unbelievers as proposed by a post trib view, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium?   Who are those people who live outside the New Jerusalem during the Millennium?   In a post trib event, everyone who is caught up to be with the Lord, are the faithful ones, everyone left behind is not and are destroyed after the suggested U-turn.   Applying a pre or even mid trib view allows for souls to be saved through matyrdom as well a few who will survive who would not receive immortality which would account for those who live and die during the thousand years of Christ reign on the earth.

Just a few random thoughts on some of what has been discussed here.

Grace and Peace!

I say define Saints, and the Elect, are they two different peoples, or one?

but another question that comes to mind now is, if this event is post trib, why would these individuals need to seek out the Lord, when those who are not part of the bride will be confronted with the Lord and his mighty army to be destroyed?

This problem is worse than the neat fit, of the ten virgins, you mention, since the pre trib version leaves out the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth. And clearly there is more evidence for a millenial reign than what can be ascertained from  the parable of the 10 virgins.

You can see that unless you define whether the elect/saints are not part of the church no wedding feast can be held,  if they are,  

How do you reconcile the pre trib teaching to Rev 19:7-9

While conceding the parable of the 10 virgins is preplexing I would not discount the millenial reign based on this parable.


Blessings,
Petro

[Petro]

Will he stop time for this church only?  Not that he couldn't...after all He is God, but it doesnt seem a far stretch to say here...

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Lk 22:37

While tribulation trys all believers daily, it seems odd to suggest that, that part of the bride who dwells on the earth during this time (not asleep or dead) would require emmence tribulation.   I suppose one could say that faith may be lacking the most during this time, which I think I could accept.  I do find verses that could agree with this.

Please expand a little more on this if you can.

Grace and Peace!

2 d Tim,

All I know is that while He was destroying the world in water the first time, Noah slept at night right thru the tribulation the entire world was experiencing, yet one can hardly say it didn't affect him, but God preserved these eight souls during this judgement.

Actually what you say "what seems odd",  is exactly what you believe if, you believe the pre trib,

you said;

(quote)While tribulation trys all believers daily, it seems odd to suggest that, that part of the bride who dwells on the earth during this time (not asleep or dead) would require emmence tribulation(/quote)

Unless you do believe, those saints (Rev 13:7) left behind are not the church body of the Lord..

See, I do not have a problem accepting Christians being taken by wicked hands and slain, for their faith in God, (I read Rev 13:7 and see Saints are not only being overcome for their faith in Jesus, but killed on the earth, supposedly after the rapture (according to pretrib teaching) isn't this the reason why Jesus was murdered, but God used this as a human sacrifice for the sins of His people.



Jesus,  even taught, the multitudes;  

11  11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

And to His disciples He still says;

Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 5:11


For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
  Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.  Mk 8:35

In my opinion it is almost blasphemous to call God unjust because he dare beat the bride up before the wedding .

In this generation we all have been born into and have lived in a period of practicaly no sacrifcial effort, there is not one of us who can cliam we have resisted evil unto shedding of blood, if we are honest with ourselves, we would admit we have the best of both kingdoms, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the evil one.

Yet we almost complain at the slightest insinuation of being left to expereince tribulation, when he hasn't promised nothing of the sort to keep us from it, by accusing Him.

God forgive us..

Blessings,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

How do you reconcile the pre trib teaching to Rev 19:7-9

I see see gatherings of Saints in heaven throughout earlier verses in Revelation.  If you read further down in ch 19-11 you will note that after the wedding and supper in heaven, then, heaven is opened up and and the Lord and his army are seen coming to smite the earth, and throw the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire.  Hard to conceive a wedding in heaven without previously retrieving a bride.  You will note that it makes mention of THOSE who were deceived and THOSE who took the mark of the beast.  It seems SOME will not take the mark or worship the beast.  If this were not the case, why didn't John just write everyone on the earth?  

Chapter 20 then says...
Rev 20:3  And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

What nations?  Wasn't everyone either changed or destroyed?   Must be something missing here.  And is it possible to deceive those who have received their glorified bodys after the 1000 years when satan is loosed?  There must be mortals who were not changed included on the earth here at this time.  Survivors of the wrath who were not beheaded?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The end of the first ressurection?  Did it happen in parts?  If not, where did those who are seen at the wedding come from?  All difficult questions.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

Surely these will reign beyond a 1000 years.

As opposed to...

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Could it be that these are two different events?  Sure sounds different to me.


Also....
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
Rev 20:8  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

Where do these nations come from?  Everyone was supposed to have been slain that had the mark of the beast, and the headless souls were ressurected.   Somebody who is not part of the earlier people mentioned is poplulating nations.  Remember, sainst no longer give or take hand in marriage.   The only explanation I can give, is that some people who are not raptured, pre-trib, survive the wrath without taking any marks or worshiping the beast, and are not destroyed at Christs glorious apearance.  These would be the only people with Carnal bodies who could popluate in the 4 quarters of the earth, numbering as the sand of the sea of which many will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Post trib rapture cannot account for these individuals as all protected believers are changed (or died earlier and are ressurected), and ungodly are killed at the end of the 7 years.  Some people with mortal bodies are left to populate the nations.  Only a pre or mid trib happening can allow for survivors without glorified bodys.

I say define Saints, and the Elect, are they two different peoples, or one?

The word in question "saints" is defined as holy (also used in Rev 4:8 as holy holy holy in a song), also used of the city of Jerusalem in another place as the holy city.  So Saint could be read as Holy or clean and pure.   Also of interest is this word is also used in an earlier verse Revelation 15:3, about those (saints or holy) singing in heaven, before the wedding.  Also used as HOLY Angels in Rev 14:10.  So it appears to be used broadly of anyone or anything that is Holy.   It would account for sainst being seen in heaven in early Rev, as well as saints being seen on the earth.   Being as saints is used so broadly, I can see where many souls could be included here.  Not to mention the nation or tribes of Israel.

Elect
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

This also could represent his chosen 144,000 from the 12 tribes.

Grace ane Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

In my opinion it is almost blasphemous to call God unjust because he dare beat the bride up before the wedding .

In this generation we all have been born into and have lived in a period of practicaly no sacrifcial effort, there is not one of us who can cliam we have resisted evil unto shedding of blood, if we are honest with ourselves, we would admit we have the best of both kingdoms, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the evil one.

Yet we almost complain at the slightest insinuation of being left to expereince tribulation, when he hasn't promised nothing of the sort to keep us from it, by accusing Him.

God forgive us..

Blessings,

Petro

Petro

I am not questioning God or whether it is right or wrong for him to do.  Not my intent at all.  As you have pointed out that we are born in a time where no persecution of christians is applicable, I disagree.  Tell this to numerous missionary's and believers who are persecuted around the world daily.  In China believers of Jesus christ are sent to labor camps for just owning a bible just for one.  I hear storys all the time of missionarys who are killed because of their faith in many countries.   We are fortunate to live in a country where this type of thing is not prevelant.   While I am not complaining at the slightest hint of persecution, I would welcome it and have even experienced it myself while in the Carabean Islands while my father did missionary work there.

As you are often quick to point out, we are saved by God given faith, not by that of works or proof.  Is it fair to say people come selfishly to christ because they wish to avoid eternal death?  You can spin this any way you wish.  To follow christ we also bear his cross, but only he can bear our judgment from God, which BTW he already did.  If God chooses to send us through the tribulation period I will accept that as I have already stated, his wisdom not mine.  In light of the difficult vaguries concerning his return, I think its fair to say God expects to explore the depths of his word.   With verses like, "praye that ye are worthy to escape" and "God has not appointed us to wrath" and ealier examples of leading his people out of harms way, its far from true to say he hasn't said or shown any promises of his devine protection.   I have clearly stated that I could buy into a mid-trib view, but offered views for a pre-trib view.

I'm sorry you feel as though I am being blasphemous by suggesting God would not want to beat up his bride.  Perhaps it was poor choice of words.  But it is just as easy to see how he would want to spare his bride from oncomming wrath, as he was willing to take himself, and in fact did.  I am only offering a perspective.  The Lord knows my heart and thats all that counts.

I will back away from this thread and my differing views, as it seems to bring you to grief and accusations.  I find that interesting in itself.  I also find it interesting that pre-trib views are often attacked by believers, while post-trib views seem to live at peace with the pre-tribys.

But I wouldn't want to complain at the slightest hint of trouble.  

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

In my opinion it is almost blasphemous to call God unjust because he dare beat the bride up before the wedding .

In this generation we all have been born into and have lived in a period of practicaly no sacrifcial effort, there is not one of us who can cliam we have resisted evil unto shedding of blood, if we are honest with ourselves, we would admit we have the best of both kingdoms, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the evil one.

Yet we almost complain at the slightest insinuation of being left to expereince tribulation, when he hasn't promised nothing of the sort to keep us from it, by accusing Him.

God forgive us..

Blessings,

Petro

Petro

I am not questioning God or whether it is right or wrong for him to do.  Not my intent at all.  As you have pointed out that we are born in a time where no persecution of christians is applicable, I disagree.  Tell this to numerous missionary's and believers who are persecuted around the world daily.  In China believers of Jesus christ are sent to labor camps for just owning a bible just for one.  I hear storys all the time of missionarys who are killed because of their faith in many countries.   We are fortunate to live in a country where this type of thing is not prevelant.   While I am not complaining at the slightest hint of persecution, I would welcome it and have even experienced it myself while in the Carabean Islands while my father did missionary work there.

2d Tim,

I was only speaking of those who remain by ther stuff, in the country in relative safety, sending only money and giving very little of our time, though I am active, there is more, that I could do, and so I include myself in these,

And, I am sorry you took this personally, I didn't mean it to address you personally at all, I was generalizing, primarily addressing the responseive arguments, using the language which are really drawn from a human perspective.

I mean, here it pleased God to take the form of a servant in likeness of men, by bringing forth His only begotten son, to take upon Himself,the due penalty for our sins, and then we demand our rights, accusing Him of injustice, if the bride should experience great tribulation.  

As you are often quick to point out, we are saved by God given faith, not by that of works or proof.  Is it fair to say people come selfishly to christ because they wish to avoid eternal death?  

This is true, but even the secrets of the heart are laid bare before God, the motive is known to God,  and He is the one that does or doea not the work of the heart, He said "A new Heart will I put within you and a New Spirit will I give you."

While we can deceive even ourselves, we do not decieve with whom we have to do. Heb 4:13.

You can spin this any way you wish.  To follow christ we also bear his cross, but only he can bear our judgment from God, which BTW he already did.  If God chooses to send us through the tribulation period I will accept that as I have already stated, his wisdom not mine.  In light of the difficult vaguries concerning his return, I think its fair to say God expects to explore the depths of his word.   With verses like, "praye that ye are worthy to escape" and "God has not appointed us to wrath" and ealier examples of leading his people out of harms way, its far from true to say he hasn't said or shown any promises of his devine protection.   I have clearly stated that I could buy into a mid-trib view, but offered views for a pre-trib view.

I have not said anything, about he not having shown any promises of His devine protection, I know he can keep us in the palm of His hand while the heathen rage, He has promised to keep us from the hour of His wrath, which I see, as the same hour of temptation spoken of in Rev 3:10  ( Am I wrong?), which will come upon the whole world, our dwelling place is not  in this world, physically we are here, but we long for a country and a city not made with human hands, the flesh profits nothing it is the Spirit that giveth life, when we think of tribulation and wrath, imediately we think of  physical pain and anguish, but the Spirit delivers even from that.

The Psalmist says;

Psalm 91
1  He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2  I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3  Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4  He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5  Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6  Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7  A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8  Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9  Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10  There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11  For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12  They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13  Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14  Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15  He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16  With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.

I'm sorry you feel as though I am being blasphemous by suggesting God would not want to beat up his bride.  Perhaps it was poor choice of words.  But it is just as easy to see how he would want to spare his bride from oncomming wrath, as he was willing to take himself, and in fact did.  I am only offering a perspective.  The Lord knows my heart and thats all that counts.

I don't feel as thou you have, and forgive me for giving you that impression, I just shared my own thought of what the use of the defences sound like, I didn't say they were, it just seems that way, who am I to judge such things.

I will back away from this thread and my differing views, as it seems to bring you to grief and accusations.  I find that interesting in itself.  I also find it interesting that pre-trib views are often attacked by believers, while post-trib views seem to live at peace with the pre-tribys.

Pre, Mid, Post trib views are not a matter fo death or life  as far as I can see it, I see good teaching in most all of the pre trib postion, except when we get to the verses that are taught as gospel, when clearly they are not that clear.


I have yet to have anyone, who is solidly standing on the pre trib position, explain who the saints are??  of Rev 13:7

I think everyone will agree who the saints at 1 Cor 6:1-4 are those who make up the church.

It is clear as I mentioned previously, the church is the body of Christ. Eph 5:29-30

What makes these saints any different than the Saints of Rev 13:7??  or ;

Am I wrong in presumming  these are Tribulation saints??

Is there more than one kind of Saint?? Those who make up His body and others who don't??

But I wouldn't want to complain at the slightest hint of trouble.  

Grace and Peace!

There is no trouble, and please do not take it personnaly, My questions are directed at anyone that can answer the few questions I have asked..

Only by raising and answering questions will we be challenged to seek the answer to these thing which keep us wondering, where, when to whom  and how will these things occur and fall upon.

Of course we want to know and seek the truth out, and be found worthy that these things not come upon us.

Lets keep working it out, by challenging each other to see, things that are not in view.


God Bless you,

Petro

PS I hadn't seen your previous answer but, will look at them closely.

[Petro]

How do you reconcile the pre trib teaching to Rev 19:7-9

I see see gatherings of Saints in heaven throughout earlier verses in Revelation.  If you read further down in ch 19-11 you will note that after the wedding and supper in heaven, then, heaven is opened up and and the Lord and his army are seen coming to smite the earth, and throw the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire.  Hard to conceive a wedding in heaven without previously retrieving a bride.  You will note that it makes mention of THOSE who were deceived and THOSE who took the mark of the beast.  It seems SOME will not take the mark or worship the beast.  If this were not the case, why didn't John just write everyone on the earth?  

Chapter 20 then says...
Rev 20:3  And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

What nations?  Wasn't everyone either changed or destroyed?   Must be something missing here.  And is it possible to deceive those who have received their glorified bodys after the 1000 years when satan is loosed?  There must be mortals who were not changed included on the earth here at this time.  Survivors of the wrath who were not beheaded?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The end of the first ressurection?  Did it happen in parts?  If not, where did those who are seen at the wedding come from?  All difficult questions.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

Surely these will reign beyond a 1000 years.

As opposed to...

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Could it be that these are two different events?  Sure sounds different to me.


Also....
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
Rev 20:8  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

Where do these nations come from?  Everyone was supposed to have been slain that had the mark of the beast, and the headless souls were ressurected.   Somebody who is not part of the earlier people mentioned is poplulating nations.  Remember, sainst no longer give or take hand in marriage.   The only explanation I can give, is that some people who are not raptured, pre-trib, survive the wrath without taking any marks or worshiping the beast, and are not destroyed at Christs glorious apearance.  These would be the only people with Carnal bodies who could popluate in the 4 quarters of the earth, numbering as the sand of the sea of which many will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Post trib rapture cannot account for these individuals as all protected believers are changed (or died earlier and are ressurected), and ungodly are killed at the end of the 7 years.  Some people with mortal bodies are left to populate the nations.  Only a pre or mid trib happening can allow for survivors without glorified bodys.

I say define Saints, and the Elect, are they two different peoples, or one?

The word in question "saints" is defined as holy (also used in Rev 4:8 as holy holy holy in a song), also used of the city of Jerusalem in another place as the holy city.  So Saint could be read as Holy or clean and pure.   Also of interest is this word is also used in an earlier verse Revelation 15:3, about those (saints or holy) singing in heaven, before the wedding.  Also used as HOLY Angels in Rev 14:10.  So it appears to be used broadly of anyone or anything that is Holy.   It would account for sainst being seen in heaven in early Rev, as well as saints being seen on the earth.   Being as saints is used so broadly, I can see where many souls could be included here.  Not to mention the nation or tribes of Israel.

Elect
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

This also could represent his chosen 144,000 from the 12 tribes.

Grace ane Peace!

Brother 2d Tim,

This is good, but if you would have gone one more verse to Rev 20:9
 you would have read;

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who are these??  And are they diferent than the earlier Saints.

Or could it be, these are the saints that returned to earth with the Lord at His coming, all those who were asleep, and those were on the earth at His coming of 1 Th 4:15-17.?


Its late, I'll see  you on the next post, unless the Lord returns tonight.

God Bless,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

2d Tim,

I was only speaking of those who remain by ther stuff, in the country in relative safety, sending only money and giving very little of our time, though I am active, there is more, that I could do, and so I include myself in these,

And, I am sorry you took this personally, I didn't mean it to address you personally at all, I was generalizing, primarily addressing the responseive arguments, using the language which are really drawn from a human perspective.

Forgive me!  I guess I did feel as though your words were a bit pointed.  Its really difficult having a meaningful coversation on-line.  So much is lost in the text because of the loss of tone inflection and body language.  I apologize if my reply was sharp.

I don't feel as thou you have, and forgive me for giving you that impression, I just shared my own thought of what the use of the defences sound like, I didn't say they were, it just seems that way, who am I to judge such things.

No forgive me.  Again I did misunderstand you.  I will ask first next time    Sorry Bother.

I have yet to have anyone, who is solidly standing on the pre trib position, explain who the saints are??  of Rev 13:7

I think everyone will agree who the saints at 1 Cor 6:1-4 are those who make up the church.

It is clear as I mentioned previously, the church is the body of Christ. Eph 5:29-30

What makes these saints any different than the Saints of Rev 13:7??  or ;

Am I wrong in presumming  these are Tribulation saints??

Is there more than one kind of Saint?? Those who make up His body and others who don't??

It is difficult to make sense of all that is going on in Revelation.  John is writing down all that he is seeing.  No doubt that having a glimps of heaven, and things that are happening there would be most difficult for any human describe the things of heaven and far reaching future for John in his bible day lingo.   The Saints of Rev 13:7 could very well be the church on earth.  Clearly they are people who have accepted the Gospel of christ and are being overcome by the beast.  My question here is, when the church is removed, will anyone who comes to a saving knowledge of christ be considered a Saint also?

This is good, but if you would have gone one more verse to Rev 20:9
you would have read;

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who are these??  And are they diferent than the earlier Saints.

Or could it be, these are the saints that returned to earth with the Lord at His coming, all those who were asleep, and those were on the earth at His coming of 1 Th 4:15-17.?

From how I read it they encompass all the glorified saints who are ruling with Christ from Jerusalem.  They are encircled by this army of deceived nations within the holy city.  Does this mean there are never Saints present on the earth (or died during the 1000 years) who have not yet received glorified bodies?  If you go on to Rev 20:11-15 at the great white throne judgment, the dead small and great are judged by their works.  And whosoever was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.  Sounds as if there may be some whos name is found in the book of life.   If all the previous saints were raptured or ressurected, whos name from all these dead could be found in the book of life?  (not to mention, all the nations on earth during millennium I take it are pure for the most part.  Christ destroyed the ungodly at his coming).  The text does not explain it, but seems to leave it open to interpritation.   If there are Saints in un-glorified bodies during the millennium, it would stand to reason that a few generations would die during this time, and some if not all at the end will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Of course this is all speculation.   I know this doesn't answer your question about the saints of Rev 13:7, but it does raise questions about what Saint entails, and is it possible for there to be Both Saints in a glory state, and eartly Saints all at the same time.

Grace and Peace!