Error in Doctrine

[ollie]

Matthew 7: 28.  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
 29.  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The doctrine of Christ is His instructions to us through word and deed as given to the writers of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.

[John the Baptist]

John here:
Very good verse to 'cluster' with 2 Tim. 3:16, thanks!
The DOCTRINE of the MASTER is ETERNAL AS HE IS!
******

Matthew 7: 28.  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
 29.  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The doctrine of Christ is His instructions to us through word and deed as given to the writers of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.

[Petro]

author  Tawhano link=board=6;threadid=150;start=0#msg2634 date=1051892217]
leqach {leh'-kakh}
1) learning, teaching, insight
a) instruction (obj)
b) teaching (thing taught)
1) teaching-power
2) persuasiveness

didache {did-akh-ay'}
1) teaching
a) that which is taught
b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something
2) the act of teaching, instruction
a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public
 

Johnthe Baptist, Tawhano, and others,

While all that has been said, to this point may be true.

It is not what is in view herein, at 2Jhn1:9.

While it is true, the doctrine of Christ may be interpreted as "his teachings", it also, means "the teaching concerning Him", and this is what the word focuses on in the passage of scripture; which when revealed by the Spirit of truth, the natural man, is able to confess Him as The Christ the Son of the Living God, as Simon Peter did, at Mat 16:16.

The basis for the doctrine of Christ is found in the book
of:

Deut 18,   Moses speaking;
17  And the LORD said unto me, ......................
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

by Tahano,

The doctrine is the teachings of Christ, the commandment he gave that all who believe on him should do.

Both are true, but the unlearned, focus on one aspect and cannot see the full picture, because they have already been deceived and embrace their brand of doctrinal theology, which rejects the very words of Jesus.

One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

This is the "doctrine of Christ"

So then, in the passage in question, 2 Jhn 1, at verse 7, we read;

7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So, among the Christian church, there are those who teach and have taught deception from the begining, and Jesus warned his disciples

"Take heed that no man deceive you.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
"(Mat 24:4-5)

and, this is a reality today, as many are being and have been deceived by these and willingly follow them.

In the garden, the serpent said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  (Gen3:4-5)

So false teachers, have come into the church teaching contrary to what Jesus taught, deceiving many;

Jhn 10
25  ........ I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

So, the same serpent who was present at God's garden, has spoken to these christians, who are deceived and teach contrary to Jesus's own words, and said, to them;

"ye shall surely die!" For God knoweth that the day you sin, you shall perish, there is no eternal life for you.

Is not this the teaching you espouse, and adhere to??

OF COURSE IT IS; it is a teaching straight out of the pit, which you believe to be the truth.

So, I ask you, who has really been deceived??

Jesus said;

Jhn 8
42  .... If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

I share the word with you, that you might recover yourselves, from the great deceiver, whos, teachings you seem to listen and embrace,  more than the words of the Savior, and all while claiming to know Jesus.

When the "doctrine of Christ " is seen in the its right perspective, one can then understand, that life and death hang on every word Jesus spoke.

Blessings,

Petro

[Tawhano]

Petro said:
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

This is the "doctrine of Christ"

This is absolutely correct Petro. This is exactly what I have been saying to you in this and other threads. This is exactly what you have rejected and called me unlearned, the son of the devil and other things. You need to practice what you preach Petro.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Mark 12
29   And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31   And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.[/I]

I’ve been saying all along that the individual must make the decision to come to the Lord and you called me a follower of heretic doctrine. Now you are saying the exact same thing in that we “must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.”.

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?[/I]

And Petro answers, “Nothing, God has done it all, there is nothing you need to do”.

Hear you the Word of God, Petro.

38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.[/I]

God have given every man and woman the choice, just as He has always done from the beginning.

Petro said:
I share the word with you, that you might recover yourselves, from the great deceiver, whos, teachings you seem to listen and embrace,  more than the words of the Savior, and all while claiming to know Jesus.

I am absolutely offended by your self-righteous attitude and name calling Petro. I have shared with you verse after verse that show that we must make a choice and we still have a choice afterwards as well. The best you could do is wave your hand and dismiss the verses, as not meaning what they clearly say or the Christians the verses were referring to weren’t Christians at all. You carefully select verses to debate and stay well clear of the ones you have no rebuttal for. The best you can do Petro is inject confusion into the Word of God to uphold a doctrine that the Bible does not teach.

I told you before and I’ll tell you again, I sit here with just a Bible, online Bible Word search and Strong’s Concordance. No commentaries, no preacher, no pamphlets, no pews to fill, no coffers to fill. Just me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. I confess with my lips that Jesus was sent by the Father in the flesh to take away the sins of ALL who believe on him.

[Petro]

Petro said:
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

[Tawhano responded]
This is the "doctrine of Christ"
This is absolutely correct Petro. This is exactly what I have been saying to you in this and other threads. This is exactly what you have rejected and called me unlearned, the son of the devil and other things. You need to practice what you preach Petro.

Tawhano,

Hello in there..

Well now, I see we are getting some place, you are starting to expose yourself, now.  so you say, you believe this. And, that is absolutely correct!!, and then even add;   "This is exactly what you have been saying all along,"   Wheeeoow!!!

I say,  you haven't been saying this, all along, at all and you really don't believe this, at all; at least not from the standpoint of what you have said up to know.

Your attention is called to John 10:25-30, aren't these the verses I have been bringin to your attention, (from way back when the discussion was centered around Heb 6:4-6;) which
Jesus spoke himself.

You don't believe Jesus at all, He said;  

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

You have been arguing all along that, a person who has been given eternal life by Jesus can PERISH..  REMEEEEMBER..

Now you change your tune.....when a verse has illuminated the subject for you, and you claim that this is what you have believed all along. Sighhh...

Your starting to really confuse me..now, and with John here's help, you've really gotten yourselves spinning around and so dizzy, to the point where you have come full circle, even agreeing with me, whom you argued with, and took exception that the word "partaker" was emphatically speaking of a saved, Spirit sealed, and filled individual..who when he sinned, fell away, and perished.

Lets see, if we can't clarify this??

You asked the question;  "How can unbelievers be partakers?

posted reply by Tawhano
What has been established here is they were in fact partakers as well as being enlightened. And as usual you have neglected to answer the one question I keep asking 'How can unbelievers be partakers?'

While being emphatic that "partakers" in Heb 6 are indeed Spirit filled believers, which perish, you deny the very words of Jesus (all along claiming you believe Jesus); and then fail to support this heretical assumption, with scripture, where Jesus makes such a claim, that any that commit sin will perish.

(Please correct me as I am recalling what points you were making while arguing your position.)

So then, what you believe and (would teach); is that a person who has been saved, that is to say sealed by the Spirit of Truth, if he sins (falls away), he loses his salvation (the free gift) and can never brought back to repentance, because he has put Christ to an open shame. (Heb 6:6)  

Or in other words;

This person, who was given eternal life by the Grace of God, whereby he will never perish by Jesus, forfeits this (free gift) of eternal life because the Evil One has been  able to pluck him, from the Fathers hand, seeing that this individual was snared in sin, the result being he can never be brought back to repentance.

If this individual can lose the eternal life Jesus spoke of, there is only one of two possible explanations, 1. He never had it, to begin with, or 2. He never lost it., if he obtained it at all.

The first explanation, is unbiblical, since it is a teaching which is in direct opposition to Jesus's own words. We call it HERESY.

And if you believe this HERESY, it is because you have a distorted understanding of the Gospel.

The Gospel of Christ teaches that the Grace of God (Gods undeserved love that never quits) produces eternal life that is grasped by Faith (Eph 2:8-10) in Jesus Christ's finished righteous works at Calvary's Cross, and Faith is not produced by oneself that no one should boast.

Then you post these verses, as if, they prove, your theory;

   
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You really need to learn how to study the scriptures, you are taking this verse isolating it, and then using it out of context, Phillip, and the eleven, although chosen by Christ were still in unbelief; (sure they believed somethings about Jesus, but their faith was not the faith necessary for producing salvation, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit) none of them believed HIS WORDS until after Jesus rose from the grave,  ....(Jhn 2:16-22)

The very passage makes it plain, Phillip hadn't yet believed Jesus to the saving of his soul. Since Jesus said he would pray for those who believe in verse 12, for another comforter.
It is evident, no one had believed to this point, since Jesus never prayed this prayer for these.

What's the point you, are try making with the next passage??


Mark 12
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

And, then you give us this verses;

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What are you trying to prove by these verses??  I suppose you would teach, that water baptism is in view herein and it is what would bring on the indwelling of the Spirit, which obtains the gift and that they pricked their own hearts

Now you show your dishonesty, which explains, why you fail to understand scripture.

And Petro answers, "Nothing, God has done it all, there is nothing you need to do".
 

Please post the quote you attribute to me..above.  
Where did I give this answer anywhere.??  

and you called me a follower of  heretic doctrine. Now you are saying the exact same thing in that we "must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.".

You assume to much, aside from the statement you attribute to me, you state above;

"I've been saying all along that the individual must make the decision to come to the Lord"

You been assuming all along that the partakers, in Hebrews 6:4, were believers sealed by the Holy Gohst, just like you assume, that when Jesus stated;  

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.",

means that if you don't, Jesus will cause the gift to be taken away from those to whom he has given it to, all because you assume this is speaking about the law of Commandments.

You are presumptous, and think to highly of yourself,

Everyone who has received the Lord and  been sealed by the Holy Spirit, does not live to keep the law of Commandments, since we live unto another law, it is called the Law of Faith which is the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus (Rom 8:2)  (Rom 3:27-31); this is why we believe;

Rom 8
1  There is no condemnation them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I know I gave you this verse, once before.


There are many today, that believe they are one of the Lords sheep, when in fact they are goats, he will say to these in that day;
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:21-27)

And all because they trusted in there own abilities and works.  Imagine how great this deception, they thought they were known by Him simply because they assumed that He knew them, because they knew something about Him.  Amazing..

Don't assume anything..Tawhano.
 
By the way, I can see, part of your problem, it has to do with your slogan, signed; author unknown, if you believe this, it explains quite a bit, towards why, you cannot see, the point.
we have been discusing.

I guess you have never read Mat 16:26

The scriptures are plain to teach, that Jesus is the Captain of our salvation, and salvation has to do with our soul, I know of no true Christian which would agree with YOUR SLOGAN..

Blessings,

Petro

[Tawhano]

Petro,

Okay, you are pretending to be a person with Christ-like attitudes. Prove it. You tell me what I need to do to be saved. Tell me the correct path to Christ. You said I know nothing of the scriptures, so share with me the truth.

[Petro]

Tawhano,

You are in denial, gert serious..

You've never answered the questions I have asked of you..

..especially, the false statement you attribute to me.

Seriously, you need to work out, what you have placed our faith in.

Its obvious to me, it is in your interpretaion of what words mean to you.

Such as faith in what you have done., not what Jesus has accomplished for you.

This is why, you agree with the statement "we are the  captain of our souls", and it makes sense,  since, you define faith as something you produced yourself.

While you may be able to believe, it is doubtful, you produced the faith necessary to be saved, evidence that you have it, will manifest itself, when you are able to believe what Jesus, says, instead of rejecting it,

...let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Rom 3:4)

Nice try, but no cigar..friend

Blessings,

Petro


Petro

[John the Baptist]

Forum: John here.
There are several very old 'error's of DOCTRINE seen on the forums of today. Read Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. And some may think that their new found 'belief' & their *great 'desire' to push it (see Gen. 4:6) is something new, (or is doing their own thing..of WORKS) but the Master's recorded 'WORK' tell's us otherwise! Read it!

Lets just touch a few of these errors. OK: First lets see why 'i' at least am 'partaking' in this prayerful 'work'? (do not tell me that it is not a WORK for ALL of these posters, prayerful work might be in question though?)

In Titus 3:8-11 we will use a few verses telling us what 'Inspiration' teaches. That of good WORKS & that these ones.. 'WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD', are not un/believers.

He contrasts these [BELIEVERS], who discuss 'foolish questions', 'CONTENTIONS and STRIVINGS about the LAW' which Inspiration CALLS *VAIN!
Remember, that these ARE believers at present. Paul states that after once or twice, these 'believers' BECOME VAIN BELIEVERS, and with just one or two simple admonition rejected! Do you have that 'Belief'?

"A man that IS AN HERETICK AFTER THE FIRST AND SECOND ADMONITION REJECT; KNOWING THAT HE THAT IS SUCH IS SUBVERTED, AND SINNETH, BEING CONDEMED OF HIMSELF."

Regardless of whom this is talking about. either side? Both of these 'BELIEVERS' become VAIN & lost by their self importance! (the only safe motive would be to exspose false doctrine to you readers, not a poster's MIND, MOTIVES, or person  )  
But the verses teach that a TRUE BELIEVER can change his or her position of belief! Try Hosea 4:6.

Another: Believing, finished, NO WORKS, and once saved always saved! , Confussed, Paul surely must have been, huh? We will get to Paul shortly.
 
Yet, the exact history of the O.T. past is being 'seen' in the future history of today!  FACT! (the Eccl. chapter's, 'if' one does 'really believe', His Word's? )
Christ says this HIMSELF, He needs no inspiration in Mat. 23:3. He was very soon to start up His new Church denomination. And He was speaking to these that would GO OUT TO MEET WITH HIM IN IT. (see Matt. 25:1 &*6 for a Virgin 'once' saved FOLD)

Here are His Words to the WISE. "*ALL therefore, WHATSOEVER, they bid [YOU OBSERVE, (only believe alone? HARDLY!)  *[THAT OBSERVE AND *DO]
(DO the Good Virgin doctrine/wise! but now notice as we continue on:)
BUT DO NOT YE AFTER THEIR  [*WORKS, (WORKS OF FAITH & BELIEF) FOR THEY SAY, *BUT DO NOT"].

And what 'error' in Doctrine does one see 'pointed out' in this above Word & directly from the TRUE SOURCE! That OF Only BELIEVE, no works, it is finished! Always saved is a FINAL working Covenant condition, that of a DECISION OF CONDITIONAL LOVE FOR CHRIST! (according to our record books & Judgement)

The Doctrine of Christ is what some think that they understand is from 2 John. He is one of my favorite 'penmen'!
But lets see what he was 'Inspired' to write in 1 John. Verse one makes no doubt whom he is talking about! The BORN AGAIN BELIEVER'S. (present tense) Verse 1 speaks of the 'overcometh the world'. A WORK of.. 'HE THAT BELIEVETH'. Notice the 'end' result of these free choice ones, of either way, saved or lost?

If one quotes only the positives, even my friend John has some folks confussed, like as does Paul? But notice in the ENDING of the chapter that he clears it up. He still tells one that it is not 'finished', (as some teach finished) but in verse 15 he again tells us WHO these one are! Ones that believe!

Notice the Word of BROTHER in verse 16, and notice the Word of SIN, it is still there! (no law, no sin) Now notice the difference of this being the SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. (see James 1:14-15 for the START to FINISH of sin)

But the thought is that John still agrees that [the BELIEVER] is still able to 'sin'! Now notice that 'us' Brethern (?) can let sin come to the place of being as seen in verse 16's last part, the .."There IS A *SIN UNTO DEATH: *All unrighteousness IS SIN: and THERE IS A SIN NOT UNTO DEATH." All sin by the believer can become the sin against the Holy Ghost. When it IS FINISHED, FULL CUP so to spear. Again check Psalms 19:13

Then he goes on talking & telling us that the ones BORN OF GOD *KEEPETH HIMSELF. 'Works' of LOVING 'BELIEVING' OBEDIENCE, huh? Finished? Hardly! Try Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9.

Now for the last thought for now .
Saul was a murderer. He had the good 'seed' sown in his heart, and AFTER it took hold he became Paul. And it seems that much of the twisting of scripture by folk today are trying to make Paul as their 'error in doctrine' teacher?

In Acts 9 came Saul's surrender of the will to Christ Himself.
Paul asked the Christ who was now in heaven itself, and after the time of the Acts 2's Pentecost time that had 'fully come',..
WHAT MUST I DO?
It seems that now, would have been a good time to tell this often mis/quoted one what we are today HEARING AGAIN & AGAIN?
Paul (Saul) *MUST DO SOMETHING?? Surely Paul & Christ must have known that it was ALL FINISHED?! And that there WAS NOTHING ELSE REQUIRED IN BELIEVING FAITH THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE?! THAT ONE WAS 'ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED'?! And that EVERYTHING ELSE WAS THE DOCTRINE OF ERROR?! Huh?

And people [PERVERT] both the Master's Words & poor old Paul in being a hypocrite, and publicly re/crucify Christ and put Him to an OPEN SHAME?! (Of works of errorous teaching & doctrine. see Heb. 6:6 )

But let 'see' what Christ told Paul? (Saul) Remember ALL OF THE MIRACLES that Christ Did & still does.   And remember that Saul was BLINDED at Christ's presence & GLORY. Why did the Master not heal him along with all of the rest of the above ones & there false doctrine of today?  

Notice why: Heavenly ZION'S MASTER had intrusted (yes conditional) His ORGANIZED NEW DENOMINATION with adding membership to the HEAVENLY ORGANIZED DENOMINATION. (or of its heavenly REMOVAL if that be the need) See 1 Cor.10:1-3 & Matt. 17:15-19 & *Eph. 2:20-21 & *Matt. 18:15-18)

Take note: There can be NO LOOSE CANNON'S WHO ARE 'FINALLY' RETAINED AS TRUE BELIEVERS!  (see Na. 1:9)

So what was the CONDITION for Saul, as told by the MASTER HIMSELF?
Acts 9:6's last part of verse:
"Arise, AND GO INTO THE CITY, [AND IT SHALL BE *TOLD THEE WHAT *THOU MUST DO]." Why did Christ not tell Paul what MUST BE DONE?

Some say, Believe only? Or that Paul taught that belief was WORKLESS? Or that Christ told one, that he could be a 'gutless wonder' & a person who has no Denominational ORDER? Or, it is good enough 'belief' to just come out shooting from the hip, and in believing in the 'once saved always saved' thing?
Friend: These above 'beliefs' take more 'presumptous faith' than that of believing in evolution! See Psalms 19:13 again!.

Bottom line: Your 'free decision' to follow Christ requires ALL.
Then & only then have you been re/created with the starting point of 'conversion'.
All of the PROVISIONS are then in place for your WORKING partenership, Covenant, pledge, baptismal vow, two party agreement! See the Provisions in Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 once again!

OK: In Acts 9:13 we see Christ also giving some assurance to the church! Hay, would you have taken this guy in, based of his record of 'works'? but read on, and then see what the REQUIREMENT results are! And that is Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant conditions.

---John  

[Petro]

Tawhano,

It is not a wild reckless accusation, I make, when I said;

"you define faith as soemthing you produced yourself"

Since, you believe you can lose eternal life, which is the free gift Jesus, says He gives to all whom the father send to Him, and these He says, He will raise up at the last day, and they shall never perish.

While your God dishonoring doctrine, rejects the very words of the Savior. Whom you say  you believe in.

I don' have to prove anything to you, If you don't believe Jesus, what makes you think, I am going to convince you or even prove to you, you are wrong.

You need to repent of such thoughts..

Petro

[Tawhano]

Thank you Petro, you have shown your true spirit.

I am preparing a rebuttal to your post; did I say I wasn't or that I wouldn't be posting anymore? What I have asked of you was a fair proposal. I am asking for your view of how one finds the true path to salvation.

[Petro]

Tawhano,

You do take the cake, now you want my views??

Look,  you need to reconcile what you believe with scripture, not my views.

As for how does one find the truth for salvation??

No one is deserving of anything but, judgement, because the scripture says,

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Do you believe this??

And as I said before, God is not obligated to save any one, but just because He does, right away some think it is because I believed.  

This is the lie, Satan would have these believe to keep them from coming to the truth of the Gospel.

God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.


The Gospel is plain, when it says, at;

Eph 2
1  And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Jesus said;

Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Mat 8:22)

Mat 22
32  ........................God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Now Satan has his followers among God s sheep, who have introduced these heretical doctrines; which state,  "man is not really dead" , "he can hear, and believe". Part of this may be true, but, how can one hear unless he is made to hear, or believe unless he is made to understand that he might be converted??

Jesus said;

Mk 4
11  Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Do you think, one has there sins forgiven before they are converted??

And then the unlearned, reason among themselves, and conclude "if I believe, then I will be saved, so then this is my part that I need to do."

Either we were dead or not dead, depending what one chooses to believe concerning this will determine, where he winds up in the doctrine that leads to truth or  deception.

If it is true, everyone is dead in sin and tresspass, this means, a person, can't even hear the Gospel, read 2 Cor 2:14, it is plain from this verse, the natural man (although he is physically alive) is unable to receive the things of God, neither is he able understand them at all,

Why, you might ask yourself??..........because he is dead in sin and tresspass, is the answer..

So, what is it that causes some to hear, and others not to hear, it has nothing to do with man, and all to do with God, listen carefully..

Rom 9
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Nobody can will himself to believe anything concerning God, if there is none that seek God, and ALL are sinners, and dead in sin,  then it stands to reason, if any are saved it is because God, has caused it to come to pass, and it is God 's perojative and he excersizes it sovereignly.

He gives everyone the opportunity to hear the Gospel, as many times as possible throughout their lifetime, only those those who willingly respond wind up repenting and believeing him, because He cause them to hear the message,

He shows kindness and mercy, through his Grace, allowing to be drawen by the Spirit of Grace, thereby giving them Faith to believe in Jesus, and this faith had nothing to do, with anyones will or what they might have done or will do, or deserved, or intelligence or anything else,  they were dead in sin and tresspass, and could not believe, receive nor understand, and He chose not to harden their hearts, when they turned from the Gospel the many times they heard it before.

One must understand he is a sinner, period.

This is the first bleak reality one must come to, before he can start understanding, how man comes to the truth of God's Gospel.

If you are a Christian, you need to get this idea, out your head that you were saved, because you believed in Jesus, you didn't believe in Jesus at all, you simply believed, when you came to the truth that Jesus's blood forgives sin, that you were a sinner, in need of forgiveness of sin, that you were  dead and would remain dead eternally if you remained in your sin of unbelief, and there was nothing you could do about it,  you agreed with God, you were dead in sin ans tresspass.  It was only then God sent you to His Son, that your sins were washed away, this is the real Baptism with the Holy Spirit,

God cleaned you up and put his spirit within you, this is what is called the new birth, where before you did not believe, receive nor understand the word of God, but know believe it, by the Spirit who dwells within you. It was all his doing, for you to take credit for any of it, is dishonest, with the Word of Truth.

This is the doctrine that Glorifies God,

Jesus lives to intercede for his people, because the evil one accuses them of sin before the throne day and night, this is why he sits at the right hand of God, unto this day, interceding for us.

Haven't you ever read this,  

Rev 12
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Heb 7
22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

This is why our High Priest said  [coolor=Red]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,[/color]

He not only died for those whom he saves, but he interceds for them at the throne of God, for their sinns, which they continue to comit (not because they want to, but because they have not yet been perfected, the difference is that before we were in bondage to sin before, but now being set free they are not in bondage to sin), buyt are being accused of by the accuser day and night, when they sin.

Notice what the following verses teaches us, they are speaking of the "free gift";

Rom 5
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Did you understand what verse 16 is teaching us; inspite of many offences the free gift is what justifies; we are righteous in Jesus, we are judged according to His works not ours.

Glory to God.  If I had to be judged based on my works, I would have no hope, but because of Jesus, I have this great hope. And, I confess I am a great sinner, but have a greater Savior.

How does denying the very words of Jesus, give glory to God, ??

Prophesying Christians, should believe God, and not believe heresies.

Take heed let no man deceive you...............these are Jesus own words.

Blessings
Petro

[Ambassador4Christ]

Do not take your beliefs to the Bible. Get your beliefs from the Bible.  

[Tawhano]

Petro sarcastically remarks:
Hello in there..

Well now, I see we are getting some place, you are starting to expose yourself, now.  so you say, you believe this. And, that is absolutely correct!!, and then even add;  "This is exactly what you have been saying all along,"  Wheeeoow!!!

I say,  you haven't been saying this, all along, at all and you really don't believe this, at all; at least not from the standpoint of what you have said up to know.

Yes indeed we are getting someplace. The first sign that someone is presenting weak argument is when they twist the words of their opponents around to discredit them. I have not changed my view at all. Because you think I have then I take it you either haven’t understood one word I’ve said or you have no viable rebuttal for me and have to resort to pettiness. I have been clearly stating all along that the individual has to do something in order for the promise of God to come to them.

You said “One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken” and that is what I have been saying all along. There is something required of an individual to accept the free gift of God, he must believe the words of God and then do them.

I posted verses to support this and I have said it all along. Your attempt to twist my words will not change my earlier postings. Anyone can go back and see that I have not changed my stand. I don’t know what else to say to get it through to you that I believe the verse below and others like it clearly show that we need to do something to receive the gift of the promise from God:

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Petro said:
You don't believe Jesus at all, He said;  

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

You have been arguing all along that, a person who has been given eternal life by Jesus can PERISH..  REMEEEEMBER..

Now you change your tune.....when a verse has illuminated the subject for you, and you claim that this is what you have believed all along. Sighhh...

I have not changed my tune at all. What I have said over and over again is that I believe the gates of hell cannot prevail against the promise of God. The promise is there on offer to all who accept it. Nobody, not even satan, can take that promise away. When does eternal life begin? At the end, which if we endure till that time we are able to receive when Jesus catches us all up into heaven on the Judgment Day. I also said that as freely as we receive freely we could reject. We can turn away from God but the promise is still there and will always be there but if you reject it then you are like the dog returning to it’s own vomit, the pig being washed returning to wallow in the mud again. Show me how what I believe is at odds with John 10:28-30. It is only in your mind that what I believe is against the Word of God and you have not been able to show otherwise.

Petro said:
Your starting to really confuse me..now, and with John here's help, you've really gotten yourselves spinning around and so dizzy, to the point where you have come full circle, even agreeing with me, whom you argued with, and took exception that the word "partaker" was emphatically speaking of a saved, Spirit sealed, and filled individual..who when he sinned, fell away, and perished.

I am not dizzy at all. I stand fast to what I believe. You are simply twisting my words because you have no sound argument to defend your views. In fact you are very selective in what you wish to share with this board. I do not agree with you on who the partaker is, nor have I said such. The partaker of Christ is a Christian. You have provided nothing to show that this is not true. You argument is that if the partaker is a saved individual then that verse is at contention with John 10. What I am saying is the contention isn’t with the verses at all but with your interpretation of them. You are unable to harmonize the scriptures without corrupting them to fit some man’s interpretation of salvation. I made myself clear, it’s you who are dizzy and trying to twist my words because the foundation you build your argument on is shaky.

Petro said:
You really need to learn how to study the scriptures, you are taking this verse isolating it, and then using it out of context, Phillip, and the eleven, although chosen by Christ were still in unbelief; (sure they believed somethings about Jesus, but their faith was not the faith necessary for producing salvation, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit) none of them believed HIS WORDS until after Jesus rose from the grave,  ....(Jhn 2:16-22)

The very passage makes it plain, Phillip hadn't yet believed Jesus to the saving of his soul. Since Jesus said he would pray for those who believe in verse 12, for another comforter.
It is evident, no one had believed to this point, since Jesus never prayed this prayer for these.

I have no idea what John 2:16-22 has to do with this discussion, so I am unable to comment on that.

I am not isolating the verse in John 14:15. The verse stands true and powerful on it’s own. The old ‘using it out of context’ argument eh? Then to prove your point you take the verses out of context and put the cart before the horse. It wasn’t their belief in question at all. Nobody at that time could be saved through their belief in Christ because He had not yet fulfilled the law. The promise of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) was not yet given. Their belief was sufficient which is why they obeyed Jesus and waited for the promise of the Spirit in that upper room having already believed, repented and baptized as commanded.

John 14
15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Further you said that none of them believed His words and yet we read:

Matthew 16
13   When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14   And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15   He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18   And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20   Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

If God revealed it to them then I guess their belief was sufficient, or do you believe it was only revealed to Peter?

What are you trying to prove by these verses??  I suppose you would teach, that water baptism is in view herein and it is what would bring on the indwelling of the Spirit, which obtains the gift and that they pricked their own hearts

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Yes that is exactly what this verse is saying. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey the Word of God and Repent, are baptized as this verse clearly states. This isn’t the only verse that tells us that we must be baptized and that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey God’s Words.

(Part one)

[Tawhano]

(Part Two)

Petro said:
You been assuming all along that the partakers, in Hebrews 6:4, were believers sealed by the Holy Gohst, just like you assume, that when Jesus stated;  

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.",

means that if you don't, Jesus will cause the gift to be taken away from those to whom he has given it to, all because you assume this is speaking about the law of Commandments.

You are presumptous, and think to highly of yourself,

No, you are the presumptuous one. Here you attempt to twist my words again. I said nothing about the law of commandments. Jesus fulfilled the law; we are not under the law anymore. I posted this verse in defending my view that we have a choice to make. That was the whole point of my post, had nothing to do with whether it says you can lose your salvation by not keeping commandments. So what are you saying then? That someone who does not love God can find salvation without first repenting? Jesus was giving his followers clear commandments of what is required of them to be able to partake in the promise of the Holy Spirit that was to come. All the instructions Jesus gave were leading up to that point when His sacrifice would provide us a way back to God. A choice was given for those who would seek the promise of God.

I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

The way I see it, the two major problems we are having here is that this post started off as a debate about OSAS and then predestination crept into it. Now you are assuming where I am arguing OSAS that I am arguing predestination and vica versa. The other problem is your hateful comments.

You pretend to come to this forum to help people find the truth. Well, I came to find truth and all you have shown me is hatred and contempt.

[ollie]

Doctrines of the Gospel:

Are from God ---- John 7:16; Acts 13:12
Are taught by Scripture ---- 2 Timothy 3:16
Are godly ---- 1 Timothy 6:3; Titus 1:1
Immorality condemned by ---- 1 Timothy 1:9-11
Lead to fellowship with the Father and with the Son ---- 1 John 1:3; 2 John 1:9
Lead to holiness ---- Romans 6:17-22; Titus 2:12
Bring no reproach on ---- 1 Timothy 6:1; Titus 2:5


MINISTERS SHOULD:
Be nourished up in ---- 1 Timothy 4:6
Attend to ---- 1 Timothy 4:13,16
Hold, in sincerity ---- 2 Corinthians 2:17; Titus 2:7
Hold steadfastly ---- 2 Timothy 1:13; Titus 1:9
Continue in ---- 1 Timothy 4:16
Speak things which become ---- Titus 2:1
Saints obey, from the heart ---- Romans 6:17
Saints abide in ---- Acts 2:42
Showing good fidelity adorns ---- Titus 2:10
The obedience of saints leads to surer knowledge of ---- John 7:17


THOSE WHO OPPOSE ARE:
Proud ---- 1 Timothy 6:3,4
Ignorant ---- 1 Timothy 6:4
Doting about questions, etc ---- 1 Timothy 6:4
Not to be received ---- 2 John 1:10
To be avoided ---- Romans 16:17
Not endured by the wicked ---- 2 Timothy 4:3