Spiritual Gifts

[Royo]

It seems to me that a lot is being based on somebody's belief that the verse that says, "when that which is perfect comes," refers to the Bible being completed, as has been stated over and over. Not all agree that is what is being said there, and it DOES NOT say that. It is just how some interpret it. And, if it did mean that, which was not far off from the time Paul wrote this to the churches, why was Paul telling the church to "...desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues." [1 Cor. 14.39].

There is only one truth regarding the speaking of tongues, and that truth comes from He who lives in us as He reveals the truth to us. So if any reading this thread ask themself, "who is right here about tongues?" I say the Holy Spirit is right. ALWAYS. So if it is really important to you, seek Him for the answer.

Your brother in Christ.  Roy.

[Jabez]

I went to a church tonight that is pentecostal,sorry for the spelling.Everything was great and toward the end the preacher asked if anyone needed prayer and some went and he asked the congregation to come and lay hands on them.As i whatched i heard one or two ladies start speaking in tongues.I will do as you sugested roy i will pray for the truth on this..

[Ambassador4Christ]

I beleive this type of tongues still happens,the type where your spirt is talking to GOD,and where your spirt is talking to the church with a interpter.

I still dont understand this..Can people speak in tongues when they want?I beleive that they can not.

For over 13 years I was in the Full Gospel circle, I believed I spoke in tongues(at that time) Not now. Guys like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Ken Copeland, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggert, etc, etc speak in tongues  
 Question: Why is it usualy a fat woman who does it in the local meetings?
===========================
Whitehorse  Posted on: September 17, 2003, 11:41:45 PM  
I believe that when the scriptures were completed, the canon was closed and that this gift is no longer in use. My understanding is that these were known languages used for evangelizing and spreading the gospel.  

AAAAAAAAAAAAAMen
 

[4JC]

Hi everyone,
I'm not a Bible scholar, But I'll share some of what I learned  on these things. First I want to say I don't believe tongues (the one kind, the only kind) are in operation today.
We'll get into that later. I believe that scripture is complete.
(no more revelatory prophesy)


1 Cor. 13;8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away
13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Does the closed cannon of scripture= The perfect?
( At one time I believed this to be true )

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.
 I think spiritaul and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped. The two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17.

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who " Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth".Rev. 11:3

E) We will see "face to face". 1 Cor.13:12 .

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb  "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temorariness of gifts.

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test. Which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.
This is the only possibility. Only in Heaven will we see "face to face". only in heaven will we be "know fully just as we also have been fully known".
 
As a side note, tongues, "they will cease", cease uses a different verb  (pauo) . This is different from (katargeo). Check it out.


Some thoughts on the two different types of tongues. There were two different types, the false gift (gibberish), and the true gift.
 Paul wasn't telling each individual to use prophecy over tongues, he was telling the Church to use the people with the gift of prophecy over the people with the gift of tongues within the Church.
"Eagerly desire the greater gifts", look up (zeloo) #2206 in the greek dictionary. Given the fact that Paul just got through telling the Corinth church not to do this, this would have to be used as a statement of fact (But you) "eagerly desire the greater gifts", and not a command. The NIV gives this alternate translation and I believe is correct in doing so.

 1 Cor. 14:2 , 14:14  Quickly, Paul ministers for God, not to God. Also, a better translation for "God" would be "a god", A similar translation can be seen in Acts 17:23, where the same form of  theo (God) is used in reference to "an unknown god".
If "my spirit" is refering to the Holy Spirit, then "my mind" is also speaking of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could not be praying through a person while bypassing the mind. And he certainly was not saying that the mind of the Holy spirit sometimes can be unfruitful. My spirit means his spirit.
The gibberish that infiltrated the Corinth Church was from the "Mystery religions" of that time. Chech it out. This is far to big a topic to type with one finger. don't rely on what you read on this thread only. Study your brains out on this one.
If you are Charismatic, may I suggest to balance your study, that you look into what John MacArthur's teachings have to say. This is one of the teachers this rookie studies under. My only intent is to raise some questions in your mind while you study this yourself.

If anyone disagrees with what I posted, I would be happy to hear why. I studied all sides of this issue and have found this to be accurate and in line with scripture.(to the best of my understanding)

Thanks and God bless,
4JC

[Tamara]

I would just like to ask one question 4; does God repent of His Gifts?


Love..Tamara

[4JC]

Hi Tamara,

I'm not sure what you mean, and I'm not sure how to take that. So I guess i'll leave that one alone.


Love 4JC

[Tamara]

Hi 4J!

The Holy Spirit gives Gifts as He will.  These are listed.  Once given one of these gifts, they are your's to use with care and guidance of the Holy Spirit.  Speaking in a different language is one of these gifts.  It is a spiritual language and to be used under direct guidance of the Holy Spirit.  Not as one wants to use it.
I speak in a different language as I asked for the Baptism Of The Holy Spirit, and it was prayed that I would receive the Baptism.
Father gives us these gifts, and never takes them away, if we use them as directed by the Holy Spirit.
Many folk don't realise that this magnificent gift is to be used with utter discretion.  ONLY as directed by the Holy Spirit.
How can you tell if it is being used indiscriminately?
The people who have the gift should also have the fruits.  The speaking in the different language should be interpreted if the person/people are speaking in public.
One doesn't take these gifts lightly!  They are from GOD HIMSELF!!  And...once you know that fact.  And receive a gift, the joy you experience is unimagineable.  Absolutely unimagineable.
And, if directed to pray alone in the language you have been given, your heart swell with joy and, you know you are speaking to God Himself.  And, He IS listening.

Love..Tamara.

[Tamara]

I will add to that letter.
You see, today people are using the gifts indiscriminately. You will see this on some T.V. Evangelist shows. And, in sone of the churches of today.
Speaking in "tongues" (a prayer language) is a lesser gift.  Nevertheless, it is a gift from God.  A spontaneous gift. It comes in an instant and you find yourself speaking in a different language.
Now Satan can copy the gifts too.  BUT, he cannot copy the FRUITS.  LOVE is the chief fruit. Yes, he can give a fake "love", but, the true LOVE OF GOD, in one of His Children is a never failing love.  An unconditional Love.  It reaches out to embrace all that is good.  A true child of God will obey any call in Love.  
The true child of God does not seek riches.  He/she is content with whatever God gives.  And, He is a most generous Father!  BUT! I stress...He only GIVES WHAT WE NEED!  NOT what we want. But, then, the true Child Of God has placed his/her life in His Hands where their life is safe!
Many people claim to have the gifts, but, always remember to LOOK FOR THE FRUITS!  If they are sarcastic, bitter, money grabbers, hurt people, deny people comfort when they need it, love themselves and dress in splendour, deny the words of Paul, (all of them!)  talk loudly, are brash and insulting...they have not the fruits...even if they can speak in a different language!  Their prophecies are false, their actions are false, their love is false.  
The true Child Of God is gentle, kind, loving and thoughtful towards other people in every way.
And, they are very happy!  Why?  Because they are the Children of God!  He has given them TRUE joy!
And, you'll find that these folk are at their happiest just watching their Father's Creation's, from the magic lights of the sunset, to the might of the lofty mountain.
The true child of God speaks in their prayer language alone, or, many times they may just be looking at the magnicence of creation and will hear a little voice softly say "Speak to me child." ...and they will just talk to their Father in Heaven, as a friend...

Love..Tamara.

[4JC]

Hi again Tamara,

Someone told me, just after I was saved, to test everything to scripture, even scripture itself. This was the best advice  ever given to me. Nobody should take the gifts lightly, but We still need to test everything to his word. Always go with scripture over everything. I would like nothing more than to walk into a hospital and heal all the sick, but I can't, nobody can. I would also like nothing better than to go to another country and preach the gospel in my own language and have them hear it in their own language, but I can't, nobody can. Even the Churches that claim they can speak in tongues still need to send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of the places they are going to. These (sign) gifts had a purpose, that purpose does not exist anymore.

"Speaking in "tongues" (a prayer language) is a lesser gift."  

This is the problem with a personal prayer language(If this is what you are talking about).
It's personal, nobody is edified other than the person speaking it, or praying it, and the gifts are never for self edification. This also goes against the Laws of love, and without love, we are nothing more than a clanging symbol. Believe me, I spent two of my first three years in a Pentecostal Church and my first task (in study) was to test the Church creed, or statement of faith. This was not easy for a new Christian. On the surface everything looked ok, But the more I studied, the more the contradictions surfaced. Did you ever wonder why a new Christian could walk into almost any (Christian denomination) Church, it could be Pentecostal, Baptist,Whatever, and be convinced, by scripture, that what that denomination teaches is truth. even though it's different from what the other Christian denominations are teaching? I did. These debates are old and the false teachings are well rehearsed With a proof text to match. Thats why it's important to study these things ourselves. We just need to dig deep enough and they will be exposed. Nobody gets it all right at once. We are all fooled by false teachings at one time or another.

 I was told by the Penticostal Church I attended the reason their (revelatory) prophecy didn't meet Biblical standards was because it was a lesser gift than what the Apostles had. Same with healing, and their tongues couldn't meet Biblical standards either. I'll quote Thomas Edgar from his book " Satisfied by the promise of the Spirit",

"The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today. That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence."  

I still have many Charismatic and Petecostal friends, and I wish we could see eye to eye on these issues. But we just go round and round on this. Somebody is wrong. I believe if anyone is willing to look at all sides of this issue honestly, they will be convinced the true sign gifts are not what we see in the Churches today, by experience ( again, this shouldn't matter), and most importantly by scripture.


Your brother in Christ,
 Love 4JC

[Tamara]

Hi 4JC!

I agree with nothing the Apostolic or Pentecostal churches teach.  We have a teacher.  The Holy Spirit who will guide us into all truths.
And, we MUST test EVERYTHING to scripture.  Even the slightest detail cannot be overlooked.  Because I speak in a Prayer Language makes me no better than anyone else. It is NOT for self edification.  This is a personal gift to the glory of God.
It is true that one cannot go into a hospital and heal all the sick.  But, while visiting a hospital I was led to pray for one lady.  She was so ill!  And she welcomed the fact that I would pray for her.  The next day, I saw her in the hospital gardens, she called out to me. I didn't know her!  She had makeup on, and she looked so well.  She cried out "Hey Tamara!  I'm going home tomorrow!!"
Now, that's just an instance of being LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I have seen them in Apostolic churches doing things which do not agree with scripture.  Using their Prayer Language indiscriminately is one of them.  To use one's Prayer Language, it MUST BE INTERPRETED!  And, I cannot stress that more strongly.  When the Spirit came at Pentecost in the Book of Acts, there were interpreters in the crown.  Paul states people will think you are mad if you speak in tongues in church and nobody interprets.
Now this is true.  I have seen this happen. People going off on their steam talking in their God Given language instead of being led to speak in it by the Holy Spirit.
Due to that fact, I prefer to keep awway from Pentecostal and Apostolic churches. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible about being "slain in the spirit".  Although, walking as a Child Of God, in harmony with His Commandments, Love and guided by the Holy Spirit anything can happen AS WE NEED IT.
More than anything, we need THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, and we receive those if we are absolutely sincere in heart while seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
THEN we walk in LOVE. We cannot have the gifts of the Holy Spirit unless we have the FRUIT. And, the chief FRUIT is LOVE.
I am also against the WOF movement.  Many of these people claim to have the gifts, but, I have yet to see their FRUIT.
And, indeed many of them would prefer to see some of the words of Paul taken out of the Bible regarding a woman's place both in the church, and at home.
I haven't been led to pray in my Prayer Language for a long time now.  So, I don't speak in it as I have not been directed by the Holy Spirit to do so.
If I were to go to an Apostolic or Pentecostal church every Sunday, I could just copy everyone else I suppose and babble away.  But, that is stupid!  Common sense tells one that!
I do know of a lady who spoke in a Prayer Language (tongues) who was prompted by the Holy Spirit to speak in her Prayer Language while overseas.  She spoke quietly to herself.  A lady standing near her said "You have just spoken the most beautiful to your God!  Why don't you use your own language?"  There was no answer.  You see, she never had her language interpreted!  Yet, there she was standing right next to a lady who spoke the language!  
We must use wisdom in everything.  Line up everything with the Bible.  And, test the spirits whether they be from God.  
If we are not sure, we ask Father to take the gift away.  If it is satanic in origin.  You'll never speak it again if it is!  
It is personal.  Between Father and child.  But, if you display the fruits, the TRUE fruits of Love, meekness, etc; then you are on the right track.
Father NEVER repents of His Gifts - nor His Word.  And, He will lead one of His children right out of the wrong 'church'!
Then He will guide them into truth - HIS TRUTH as it is written in the Bible.
Love..Tamara.

[4JC]

Hi Tamara,

I lost my first post (I hate when that happens lol). I need to type this out. This is part one.  



From MacArthur

The gift of tongues was given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel.

The sign was threefold: a sign of cursing, a sign of blessing, and a sign of authority.


                           A SIGN OF CURSING

Some 15 years or so before Isaiah prophesied about the strange tongues from the lips of strangers, the northern kingdom of Israel had been conquered and taken captive by the Assyrians (in 722 BC) because of unbelief and apostasy. The prophet then warned the southern kingdom, Judah, that the same judgment awaited her at the hands of the Babylonians. The proud religious leaders of Judah would not listen to Isaiah. His teaching was too simple. He talked to them, they claimed, as if they were babies, "Those just weaned from milk" and "just taken from the breast." He taught them as if they were kindergardeners: "Order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there" (Isaiah 28:9-10). God had indeed spoken to them simply, in order that the least mature among them could understand and so that no Israelite would have an excuse for not knowing the Lord's will and promise. The essence of His promise was, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," and "Here is repose"; yet Israel "would not listen" (v.12).

About 800 years before Isaiah, God had warned Israel that "The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand" (Deut. 28:49). the strange language of their conquerers would be a sign of God's judgment. About 100 years after Isaiah, the Lord warned through Jeremiah, "Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,...a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say" (Jer. 5:15). The sign of judgment would be a language they could not understand.

When the apostles spoke at Penticost and were heard in their own language by Jews from many countries (Acts 2:7-11), those Jews should have known that Gods judgment was imminent. His judgment had fallen on rebellious Israel and then on rebellious Judah. How much more would it fall on those of His people who now had crucified the Son of God? In AD 70 that judgment fell, when Jerusalem was utterly destroyed by the Roman general Titus (later emporer). Over one million Jews were slaughtered; thousands more were taken captive; the Temple was plundered, desecrated, and then utterly destroyed; and the rest of the city was burned to the ground. One historian comments that Jerusalem had no history for 60 years. Just as Jesus had predicted when He wept over the city, "Your enemies will throw up a bank before you, and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation" (Luke 19:44; cf. 21:20-24).

After the destruction of Jerusalem, and especially of the Temple, the reason for tongues ceased to exist. The judgment of which it was a sign had come. After the Pentecost manifestation of tongues, Peter, by implication, reminded his hearers of that judgment: " Therefor let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:36;cf.vv.22-23).

Part two will be A SIGN OF BLESSING

Your brother in the Lord
 love 4JC

[4JC]

Back again'

Part two                A SIGN OF BLESSING

The second sign was a residual benefit of the first. The gift of tongues was a sign that God would no longer work through one nation, and favor one people. The church of Jesus Christ was for all peoples of all nations, a church in which there are many languages but no barriers. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).

With great compassion and sorrow for his fellow Jews, Paul wrote in Romans,"But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous." But with a note of great hope he continued, "Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" (11:11-12). A few verses later he explains more fully:" For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written" (vv.25-26). The way would always be open for individual Jews to come into the kingdom, for the hardening was only partial, and one day the entire nation of Israel would be brought back to her Lord. The sign of tongues was repeated when the Gentiles were included in the church, as recorded in Acts 10:44-46.

God bless
4JC    

[4JC]

Back again,

Part three             A SIGN OF AUTHORITY

Those who preached the judgment and promised the blessing were the apostles and prophets, whose authority was validated by "signs and wonders and miracles" (2 Cor.12:12;cf.Rom. 15:19). Among the authenticating signs was the gift of tongues, in which Paul spoke "more than you all" (1 Cor.14:18).
As a sign, the purpose of tongues ended when that to which it pointed ended. A person driving to Los Angeles may see the first mileage sign about 300 miles away. Later he sees one that reads "200 miles to Los Angeles," and then "50 miles," and then "10 miles." After he passes through the city, however, the mileage signs to Los Angeles cease. They have no further purpose, because that to which they pointed has been reached and passed. The gift of tongues was attached irretrievably to one point in history, and that point has long been passed.

It is interesting, and I believe highly significant, that no record is given is of a single word spoken in tongues or even interpreted. Every reference to tongues is general. They are always mentioned in relation to their purpose and significance, never in relation to their specific content. The messages given in tongues were not new revelations or new insights, but, as at Pentecost, simply unique expressions of old truths, "the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2:11). Though tongues could edify when interpreted, their purpose was not to teach, but to point, not to reveal God's truth but to validate the truth of his appointed spokesmen.

Since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 there has been no purpose for the sign gift of tongues, because that to which it pointed has been reached and passed.. Israel has been set aside, the Gentiles have been brought in, and the apostles have given the faith once-for-all delivered to the saints

                                      THE END

 You can't say you never heard are side of it.lol

Your very tired brother in the Lord
4JC

[Tamara]

LOL You must be tired 4JC!  I have only one little answer...

Malachi3:6  "For I AM the Lord. I change not.
Luke 11:13 "If you then know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?"  Author. Jesus of Nazareth.

Love...Tamara.

[PhilKosba]

How many of you who have written above do speak in tongues, and do not speak in tongues?
.
.