WHAT IS TRUTH?

[Petro]

sunodino,

Well, here is a piece of truth.

There two  seedlines, note the words of God judging the serpent with a curse, then He truns to the woman;

Gen 3
14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Note verse 15, very closely, here is the first mention of two seedlines.

The seed of of the serpent and the seed of the woman.

Scripture also, tells us, Jesus was born of a virgin, as she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, lets look at;

Luke 1
28  And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29  And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30  And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34  Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Not only the Son of God, but the "Only BEGOTTEN Son of God", so, Jesus is the ONLY man of the seedline of the woman.

While every other man or woman is of the seedline of the serpent Satan.

And because of what Jesus had accomplished at the cross, God is willing to adopt sons of the serpent, who repent, confess, and believe in the finished works of Jesus.

And these are the ones, whom Jesus is speaking of at;

Jhn 10
35  ........................., I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

These are the ones who receive the Holy Spirit/Comforter, who leads into all truth, because He lives within these.

Jhn 14
16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

So as you can see, everyone that belongs to Christ, is given the Holy Spirit, that dwells within them, anyone who does not have the Spirit of God, does not belong to Christ and is not of God.

And here is that great truth;

Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Blessings ,

Petro

[ebia]

The father of lies is by his very nature the father of deception or he wouldn't be called the father of lies to begin with. If he is the father of lies then lies are what he gives birth to, not the truth.

That sounds a bit circular, but either way, you haven't addressed the point: How can he originate [only] lies, if he doesn't acknowledge a truth to lie about?  Surely some of what he originates would be true, and some would be false.

If God is the answer to all things and the answer of all things lies outside ourselves, then when when we receive the Holy Spirit from outside of ourselves, it HAS to come from God because it comes from an answer outside of ourselves.

That follows if the ONLY thing outside of ourselves is God.
My dog is black.  John has a dog.  Therefore John's dog is black.

Before we receive the holy Spirit, we are already responding to the devil. Jesus says that our hearts are wicked. Wickedness doesn't come from God so what's in our hearts comes from the devil.

This bit's not too bad so far.

Thus, the devil already exists inside of us.

Doesn't follow - the wickedness inside us can be from the devil without the devil being inside us.

Therefore, what comes from the outside can only be from God.

Also presumes that proving the devil is inside us (which you haven't done) excludes the possiblitity that the devil is outside of us as well, and that there is no other possible source outside.

[Heidi]

But why then is it easier for us to follow the devil than to follow God? Without knowledge to the contrary, we follow what the devil values.  We already have knowledge of the devil because he advocates sin. Unless something that contradicts what the devil stands for enters us, we will still follow the devil and remain in our sinful nature. In fact, we are so comfortable with what the devil advocates that we wouldn't know it if he entered us. But when something that is the opposite of the devil enters us, we can then know the difference.

[ebia]

But why then is it easier for us to follow the devil than to follow God? Without knowledge to the contrary, we follow what the devil values.  We already have knowledge of the devil because he advocates sin. Unless something that contradicts what the devil stands for enters us, we will still follow the devil and remain in our sinful nature. In fact, we are so comfortable with what the devil advocates that we wouldn't know it if he entered us. But when something that is the opposite of the devil enters us, we can then know the difference.

Is this supposed to be assertion or reasoning?

[Heidi]

Rely on your powers of deduction, Ebia. After all, human logic is perfect.

[sunodino]

Rely on your powers of deduction, Ebia. After all, human logic is perfect.

Sorry Heidi, I don't usually overtly disagree with you, but you have said some very strange things, "God is outside of us and the devil is inside of us?"  And now, human logic is PERFECT? I don't think so.  We have been born with a choice, to serve the Lord or to serve the devil, but it is the individual "flesh" i.e; soul, spirit, body  -  are independant of both.  We can be influenced, and frankly, many times I have wrongly so, somtimes my logic has superseded the urging of the Lord.  My logic is imperfect - so is yours.  Start proving your point with the Bible, instead of philosophy to make it credible.

Hence, this thread, "What is truth"? was meant to imply that the only truth comes from Jesus and His word. To prove a point one MUST use the scripture to prove it and in two or more witnesses according to Jesus; the work of calvary was for that very purpose!  All else is supposition and opinion. Books galore take two sides and multiple views of an issue, who is telling the truth?  Is there truth?  YOU BET THERE IS.  Ultimately, it MUST BE  the Holy Spirit that guides us through the word of God or one can be sorely deceived.

2 Tim 3:13,14,16,17
13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17  That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[Heidi]

No, no, Sunodino, Ebia said human logic was perfect. I was being sarcastic. Of course human logic is imperfect which has been my point.

But i do not believe we have a CHOICE. How can we choose something we don't understand? It says all through the gospel of John that God hardens people's hearts. He blinds whose eyes He wants to blind and opens the ones He wants to open. It is the holy Spirit that makes one one believe. Trying to believe that Jesus is the truth without the Holy Spirit is like trying to understand another language without an interpreter. I desperately wanted to believe the things in the bible before the Holy Spirit entered me. But I couldn't. It didn't make any sense to me. It sounded bizarre. But whe I received the Holy Spirit from the outside, not from inside me, THEN EVERYTHING made sense to me. The Holy Spirit is from God which is outside me. All of us can only understand what we understand and our "decisions" come from what rules us at the time.

Before we receive the Holy Spirit, we value sin because sin is all we know. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin because it has given us the knowledge that sin is wrong. The Holy Spirit is what makes us KNOW Christ because it is the person of Christ living iside us.  That's why the atheists have such a hard time believing sin is wrong. Without the Holy Spirit in us, we justify sin. Before we receive Holy Spirit, what are we ruled by? And where does that come from?

[ollie]

WHAT IS TRUTH?


Jesus Christ!








John 1:17.  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


John 14:1.  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
 2.  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
 3.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
 4.  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
 5.  Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
 6.  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 7.  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him

[Heidi]

The notion that we have choice is simply not scriptural. Jesus said that no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him. So if I want to come to God and God isn't drawing me, do I have a choice? Am I bigger than God or is Jesus just plain wrong? Jesus also said that we didn't choose Him. He chose us. Paul didn't just wake up one day and "decide" to be a Christian. He was ZAPPED by the Holy Spirit which is what made him believe. Peter wanted not to deny Christ but he was too afraid for his own life. But then when he received the Holy Spirit at pentecost, he all of a sudden "decided" to give up his life then. What a coincidence? Come on, sunodino, let's give God more credit than we humans.

[sunodino]

The notion that we have choice is simply not scriptural. Jesus said that no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him. So if I want to come to God and God isn't drawing me, do I have a choice? Am I bigger than God or is Jesus just plain wrong? Jesus also said that we didn't choose Him. He chose us. Paul didn't just wake up one day and "decide" to be a Christian. He was ZAPPED by the Holy Spirit which is what made him believe. Peter wanted not to deny Christ but he was too afraid for his own life. But then when he received the Holy Spirit at pentecost, he all of a sudden "decided" to give up his life then. What a coincidence? Come on, sunodino, let's give God more credit than we humans.

Whoa, I think you are really mis-interpreting what scriptures you are referring to. Yes, the Father draws us, and yes Paul had a special visitation from Jesus, because of his Apostolic call, but Jesus calls ALL THE WORLD, and WE CHOOSE TO SERVE HIM OR REJECT HIM.  We are not ZAPPED  without our own consent, that is the difference between us and animals, nature and dead things!

John 3
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is clearly implying that Christ came to save the Lost.

John 6:35  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

To "come" to Jesus is a choice to be where he IS.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The word throughout the New Testatment translated "believe" is the Greek word:  
pisteuo, pist-yoo'-o;  to have faith, believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with.

This  believing, trusting, committing, is something only one can do WILLINGLY. "whosever will"

[Heidi]

I think it is you who are misintpreting scripture, Sunodin. Read the whole gospel of John. I was just at a bible study about it. It is extremely clear that God does the choosing, not us. God either hardens our heart or opens up our eyes. That is why rejection of the holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. When someone takes our blinders off and we can see the world, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE not to see. You are giving credit for your belief to you own superior intelligence. That is arrogance and not a fruit of the spirit. Jesus Himself said, "I can do nothing without the Father." He gives complete credit to God for everything He can do. When addressed by the rich man as "Good Sir", He said "Why do you call me good?No one is good but God alone."

I don't think you see what it is in you that allows you to believe. You think it comes from yourself. There are huge powers operating in the universe that are much bigger than the human being. To say that we are too omnipotent not be affected by God and the devil is extreme arrogance. Read the 7 woes in the Gospel of Matthew. In it, Jesus explains why God has hardened the hearts of the Jews.  If He has blinded someone's eyes, that person is not more powerful than God to "decide" to believe. If God chose us, He makes sure His will is going to get done.

[sunodino]

I think it is you who are misintpreting scripture, Sunodin. Read the whole gospel of John. I was just at a bible study about it.

So? I wasn't at your Bible study.  

It is extremely clear that God does the choosing, not us. God either hardens our heart or opens up our eyes.

God opened my eyes and offered his salvation, I accepted, and committed my life, making Jesus Lord of my spirit, soul and body.  That is not arrogant, it is the process of salvation.

That is why rejection of the holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. When someone takes our blinders off and we can see the world, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE not to see.

Rejection is something I can choose to do, BUT I DON'T.  That also is not arrogant.

You are giving credit for your belief to you own superior intelligence. That is arrogance and not a fruit of the spirit. Jesus Himself said, "I can do nothing without the Father." He gives complete credit to God for everything He can do. When addressed by the rich man as "Good Sir", He said "Why do you call me good?No one is good but God alone."

The "call me good" story, does not relate to me, as Paul said; "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:"  I didn't save myself, the work of the cross finished the work that allows me to be saved.  That is from God, not from me, I received it and accepted.  

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I don't think you see what it is in you that allows you to believe. You think it comes from yourself. There are huge powers operating in the universe that are much bigger than the human being. To say that we are too omnipotent not be affected by God and the devil is extreme arrogance. Read the 7 woes in the Gospel of Matthew. In it, Jesus explains why God has hardened the hearts of the Jews.  If He has blinded someone's eyes, that person is not more powerful than God to "decide" to believe. If God chose us, He makes sure His will is going to get done.

Whoa, you really say some weird things. I am not more powerful than God, but I was created with a free will. Anyone who ends up in the lake of fire goes there willingly.  Sounds like you are heavy into "predestination".  I think I have always commented on the side of the scriptures, holding up the glory of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. However, you are accusing me of something I never said. I detect some confusion.  

You have not read the book of Romans?
Rom 11
12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

They will once again open their eyes, but they will have to accept Jesus as Messiah, just as the Gentiles.  

Now I don't want to get into a 30 page dialog with you that does not profit either of us.  So, let's just agree to disagree. Thanks

[Heidi]

Well, Sunodino, if you want to take credit for your salvation, be my guest. I don't think you realize how big the holy Spirit is. You see yourself as capable of rejecting or accepting salvation. If Jesus had chosen not to die on the cross, then God would have been wrong about Him which is of course, impossible. Jesus fully knew that the only reason He could "choose" to die on the cross was because He was given the power to do so by God. Jesus gives no credit to Himself. Jesus was the most humble man who ever lived. He didn't glorify Himself one bit. Because of this, He was, of course, exhalted.

In the same way, when God chose us, do you think He was wrong? Jesus explains why He doesn't reveal certain things to certain people. He said that God doesn't reveal Himself to those who would not understand Him. When God chooses us, He makes sure we will know Him. He also PRUNES us so that we can come closer to Him. You must also believe that it is our superior powers that makes us grow instead of the Holy Spirit inside of us.

SInce you take credit for your own salvation, you must also blame others if they aren't saved, because after all, it's THEIR fault if they reject Him. This causes judging, which is not a fruit of the spirit, instead of understanding that none of us can help ourselves. That is why we need God.

I fought God tooth and nail but He had chosen me anyway! In one split second, I "all of a sudden believed". Never mind that I had just received the Holy Spirit. That was a minor detail.    Why does Jesus say "Forgive them, Father for they know not what they do?" Have you even thought through these things, or do you just blindly quote scripture without discernment?

Of course i believe in predestination. Why do you think Revelations was written? Do you think it's not going to happen? Or if it does happen, it's just a lucky guess? You must believe that you are master of your own fate. That fits in with your notion that humans have enough power to save themselves. After all, it isn't Jesus who saves, it's our own power to accept or reject Him. Boy, we are certainly powerful to be able to go against the Holy Spirit.  That's of course, grandiosity, not humility. Why do you think the rejection of the holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin? Or haven't you thought that out either?

We alone can do nothing to gain salvation. As Jesus said, "I can do nothing without the Father." If you think these are weird ideas, then you must not believe Jesus's words. I trust people whose ideas are more in line with the fruits of the Spirit. The closer they are to humility, the more i believe their words. True and complete humility is acknowledging that God is responsible for whatever good is in me, including my salvation, not me.  I will explain what I think the bible means by free will later. I have to get to bible study.

In Christ,
Heidi

[sunodino]

SInce you take credit for your own salvation, you must also blame others if they aren't saved, because after all, it's THEIR fault if they reject Him. This causes judging, which is not a fruit of the spirit, instead of understanding that none of us can help ourselves. That is why we need God.

I don't take credit. Jesus is my savior because of Calvary. No other reason

I fought God tooth and nail but He had chosen me anyway! In one split second, I "all of a sudden believed". Never mind that I had just received the Holy Spirit. That was a minor detail.    Why does Jesus say "Forgive them, Father for they know not what they do?" Have you even thought through these things, or do you just blindly quote scripture without discernment?

What? You say;
"Never mind that I had just received the Holy Spirit. That was a minor detail. "
Yikes, You are really confused, "O God DON'T SAVE ME, I INSIST!"  that is rediculous.

Boy, we are certainly powerful to be able to go against the Holy Spirit.  That's of course, grandiosity, not humility. Why do you think the rejection of the holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin? Or haven't you thought that out either?

We alone can do nothing to gain salvation. As Jesus said, "I can do nothing without the Father." If you think these are weird ideas, then you must not believe Jesus's words. I trust people whose ideas are more in line with the fruits of the Spirit. The closer they are to humility, the more i believe their words. True and complete humility is acknowledging that God is responsible for whatever good is in me, including my salvation, not me.  I will explain what I think the bible means by free will later. I have to get to bible study.

In Christ,
Heidi

Here is a list of accusations you made about me, without shame, you don't even know anything about me or my salvation experience, what I have been delivered from or what the Lord speaks to me about.

quotes from Heidi making accusations about me:
1.  SInce you take credit for your own salvation,
2.  you must also blame others if they aren't saved
3.  not a fruit of the spirit,
4.  instead of understanding
5.  or do you just blindly quote scripture
6.  then you must not believe Jesus's words
7.  Or haven't you thought that out either?

Talk about lack of humility. You come off very self promoting. I don't think you really want to seem that way on this forum, like you are somekind of an elitist chosen above everyone, and everyone else is decieved!  I think you need to apologize.

I will explain what I think the bible means by free will later. I have to get to bible study.

PLEASE DON'T.  You have gone way off the original subject as you usually do on all the threads.  This is my last reply to you about this. Not into arguments.  I respectfully decline.  

[sunodino]

sunodino,

Well, here is a piece of truth.

There two  seedlines, note the words of God judging the serpent with a curse, then He truns to the woman;

Gen 3
14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Note verse 15, very closely, here is the first mention of two seedlines.

The seed of of the serpent and the seed of the woman.


Blessings ,

Petro

Petro,
I hope you are still looking in on this one.  Your bit of truth is very interesting!

Are you suggesting that there are people that are born of the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman?

Please elaborate.

Thanks,
sunodino