a question for all of you

[Left Coast]

Left Coast, I notice you are using "Gods elect" many times. You do know that, Gods elect is Israel, The Jewish people.

The Jewish people were a picture of those that God saves. As individuals few Jews were saved.
The Lord uses the terms Jew, Israel, and even Church to refer to the saved and to those things on earth that relate to those terms.

Romans 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Matthew 3:9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[Left Coast]

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.

 

You are not correct in your meaning of PAS Left Coast.

So did John the Baptist Baptize 2,000,000 people including Sadducees and Pharisees?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[Bronzesnake]

L.C. quote...

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Are they saved?

 No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

 You call Jesus a liar John. I bel;ieve in Him100%

 Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

 You are stubornly dedicated to your own narcissistic belief John. You are unmovable, and unable to find the simple truth of the free gift offered to all men from Jesus Christ.

 I have prayed for you, and that's all I can do now. I've tried to show your mistake, and you refuse to listen, you have become arrogant in your own teachings, in spite of what Jesus repeated many,many times. May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

Bronzesnake....THE END!

[Left Coast]

L.C. quote...

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Are they saved?

 No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

 You call Jesus a liar John. I bel;ieve in Him100%

 Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

 You are stubornly dedicated to your own narcissistic belief John. You are unmovable, and unable to find the simple truth of the free gift offered to all men from Jesus Christ.

 I have prayed for you, and that's all I can do now. I've tried to show your mistake, and you refuse to listen, you have become arrogant in your own teachings, in spite of what Jesus repeated many,many times. May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

Bronzesnake....THE END!

YOU LIE!
I have never called Jesus a liar.
How does your gospel work for those that have lived a life of sin and then find themselves with the mind of a child through injury or age.

You cannot answer because you have no answer.

Yours is the doctrine that offers these people no hope.
My doctrine offers salvation to all including those that you would leave out.

How can you say

Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation

when you have given NO evidence or statement to support such a claim.
 
The gospel of freewill is Satans Trap, he wants you to trust in your work instead of trusting in God.
You can boast you are smarter than those that don't choose Christ.
Or you can boast you are more humble or in some other way superior to those that don't choose Christ.
Yours is a works gospel. Why would one person chose Him and their very own brother not? What separates the two?

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith is a gift from God.

May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

That would be God showing favor ---- ELECTION.
It maybe these things will always be hidden from you, if so then you are not one of his.
I pray he does open your eyes, that He does show you favor.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Your God would be unfair, unrighteous, and unjust. That is not the God of the bible.
How can you show me truth when you can't answer so many verses I have given you.
I have answered your verses, including whosoever, but you cannot answer most of what I have presented to you.
You want to think man can seek God.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You cannot answer the verses that say God Hates the wicked.
You cannot answer the verses that say it is God that chooses.

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

You call Jesus a liar John. I bel;ieve in Him100%

When did I call Jesus a liar?
You don't need to slander me.

All sorts of people believe that they believe in Him 100% Including me.
Unfortunately most are wrong.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You have chosen a salvation plan of works, according to the bible that is not the gospel.

[child_of_God_2]

God's grace and love is why I believe in God. A few months ago, my life as I knew it was tore to shreds. If it had not been for God, I would probably be a nervous wreck right now. Even though things aren't back the way that they were, I have peace in my heart, mind, and life. Through Him, I have finally found true joy in my life. He has showed me how to depend on things not seen but to depend on Him to restore my life. Each day that passes, I draw closer to God and the closer that I draw to Him, the more that my everyday life is getting put back together.

God Bless You,
Christina

[child_of_God_2]

You best be careful how you word your posts. Some of us on this board found out there is a God because we didn't have a college professor spoon feeding us the ideas of man. Others on this board found out there is a God in spite of what their college professors taught them. [/color]


His_Child,
I totally agree. Continuing education can be very rewarding, but it can also hinder you. I am one of those people that have found God in spite of what my college professors taught me. I did grow up in a penticostal church, but these professors can twist things in order to make our God seem unreal. If I can have trouble with it, just imagine how much trouble someone that isn't sure that God exists to begin with will have in class. I do agree that there is a way to say things that wouldn't offend anyone or start an argument, and from what I have read tonight (and I'm new here) neo and nimble seem to give the impression that they pretty much hate God and that nothing that we as Christians say on here to them will matter one bit. All we can do is pray for them that the will see the truth and that they will turn their lives over to God before it is too late for them.

Christina

neo and nimble-
There will always be things beyond your comprehension.
Something does not cease to exist just because it goes against human reasoning.

If god is beyond your comprehension, how do you know that he exists? And your argument seems to be composed of that stupid human reasoning.

Just because He's beyond your comprehension does not mean He is beyond everyone's comprehension.  

You best be careful how you word your posts. Some of us on this board found out there is a God because we didn't have a college professor spoon feeding us the ideas of man. Others on this board found out there is a God in spite of what their college professors taught them.

[alliecat]

I did grow up going to church and believed in God simply because I was told too. I didn't really feel it though until recently. For me, it was realizing how things in my life always work out when I pray or when someone else does. Some things that seemed impossible became possible with a simple prayer and a renewed faith. I couldn't just call it chance. When you're prayers come true or you receive little signs, you can't help but believe. You can call it chance if you want, but prayer after prayer coming true to me means their is someone watching over me. Good luck to you and I hope you find the answer you are searching for.

[Bronzesnake]

Bronzesnake quote...
"No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

You call Jesus a liar John. I believe in Him100%"

 I didn't "slander" you John - once again, you have it wrong.

 However, you did call me a liar John...

 

YOU LIE!
I have never called Jesus a liar.
How does your gospel work for those that have lived a life of sin and then find themselves with the mind of a child through injury or age.

 This is easy John. When a person asks Jesus to enter his/her life and become their Lord and saviour - when they confess their sins to Jesus - they become cleaned, and saved. Unless a person does that, they are doomed. That's why your doctrine is so dangerous John. people who ascribe to that foolishness would not have a need to ask Jesus into their lives, as they would either already be "pre-selected' or doomed regardless of what they may or may not desire. satan must laugh maniacally with joy when he hears such a doctrine.

 In your mind John, God has pre-selected an elite few for eternal salvation. All those poor souls who have honestly, and earnestly prayed for Jesus to enter their lives are in for a huge shock when they discover Jesus lied when He said...

  Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.  

Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:  

Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.  

Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?  

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.  

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 13:26 Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 John - If God has pre-selected those who He will save, then why is the gospel being preached throughout the world?

 How do you personally know that you are one of the "pre-selected john? Is is just because you "feel" saved? or did God actually speak to you/ Charlie Manson claimed that Jesus spoke to him, is he saved? how about all the other tyrants throughout history who "talked" to God? Are they also included in the "pre-selected" John, maybe you aren't one of the chosen after all, perhaps God is laughing at you right now, knowing you are just a piece of human kindling, and that you are merely deluded into believing you are one of the chosen. In you doctrine, there must be millions who are in that very predicament.

 No, John, That is ludicrous. Jesus said it many, many times..."WHOSOEVER" means "WHOSOEVER" no matter how you try to misconstrue the word in order to make your doctrine work.

ps. Thanks for sticking around my brother. We can disagree and remain civil, and that's how Jesus would want it.

Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

Bronzesnake
You Lie because you have made a false accusation.
If I have called Jesus a liar, BE SPECIFIC. When and where?
If it is your claim that because I don’t agree with YOUR interpretation of the Greek word “pas”, which is interpreted as; whosoever, all, etc, then it is not that I am claiming Jesus is a liar, I am claiming that you have not yet come to understand the full meaning of this word.
Is Charles Spurgeon also calling Jesus a liar?
Charles Spurgeon, on the word pas, from his sermon, Particular Redemption.  http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

Your understanding reminds me very much of Heidi and her insistence that Jesus was not God.
She isolated a several verses of scripture and claimed Jesus was the son of God not God himself.

Mark 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

If all we had were these types of verses then she would have a legitimate claim that Jesus was not God.
In like manner you also point to certain verses that seem to claim that we can seek him and believe on him by our freewill.

For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Isolating this verse you claim that we have the capability to seek Him.
We pointed out to Heidi verses that show that Jesus was God.

Colossians 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I pointed out to you verses that say no one can seek God.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Just as Heidi could not accept verses that contradicted her doctrine you cannot accept the verses that contradict your doctrine.
Heidi would repeat over and over again “Son of God”, you repeat over and over again “Whosoever”.
As Spurgeon has said and as I have said the word ‘whosoever’ <pas> is not such a concrete term that you can hang your whole eternity on one understanding, to do so is to reject a great portion of the scripture.
Jesus said Whosoever the Father GIVETH me Shall come to me.

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

When you turn to verses such as:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You think that believing is within mans capability.
This is partially true. Man can have a type of belief, but that belief does not save.

John 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The bible speaks also of many that not only believed but also worked for the Lord, or so they believed. They were preaching Christ.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you think about this for a moment you can see that there are all sorts of people that Believe on Jesus that cannot possibly be saved.
The Pope believes on Jesus, Benny Hinn believes on Jesus, Methodists believe, Pentecostals believe, Freewill Baptists believe, Reformed Baptists believe, Mormons believe, ETC.
It is impossible that all of these people have it right.
Saving belief can only come from God.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That is from the mouth of Jesus -- are you calling Jesus a liar?

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES are those that God has given the ability to believe. Just as Heidi could not accept John chapter 1, you cannot accept John chapter 6. WHY?
The “whosoever” <pas> that believe are the “all” <pas> that God has given to Jesus.
You have made many accusations not based on my testimony, but based on your assumptions.

How do you personally know that you are one of the "pre-selected john? Is is just because you "feel" saved? or did God actually speak to you/ Charlie Manson claimed that Jesus spoke to him, is he saved? how about all the other tyrants throughout history who "talked" to God? Are they also included in the "pre-selected" John, maybe you aren't one of the chosen after all, perhaps God is laughing at you right now, knowing you are just a piece of human kindling, and that you are merely deluded into believing you are one of the chosen. In you doctrine, there must be millions who are in that very predicament.

I do not believe in dreams or visions.
All of these things ceased when the bible was finished and sealed.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

By rejecting John 6, Philippians 1:29, Romans 3:10-12, Psalms 65:4, etc, you are taking away the words of the book of Gods prophecy.
My salvation is based by the fact that I have been changed.
There were some sins I wanted out of my life, but for the most part I enjoyed my life of sin. I had a very good time.
I have no joy in sin any more.
The bible tells us to examine ourselves.

2 Corinthians 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

God changes us.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God gives us a means of testing our salvation.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

When we look at these verses in light of Romans 7 we can see that because we still have a body of flesh we will still sin, but there is no pleasure in sin.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I can cover this more if you need it.
How do you know you are saved?
How do you know you are not one of those spoken of in Matthew 7:22-23?
I asked you a question.

How does your gospel work for those that have lived a life of sin and then find themselves with the mind of a child through injury or age.

You didn’t answer the question.

This is easy John. When a person asks Jesus to enter his/her life and become their Lord and saviour - when they confess their sins to Jesus - they become cleaned, and saved. Unless a person does that, they are doomed.

What you are saying is that there is no hope for those who have lost their intellect through injury, or illness after they have lived a life of sin, they are doomed even though they still live, by your doctrine.
Heidi did not answer the verses we gave her, you do not answer the verses I give you. Why?

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 My friend. I can accept that we have differences of opinion when it comes to doctrine.  I can not, and will not however, allow you to personally call me a liar ever again John. That my friend is your final warning. When I stated the following in relation to satan and his fallen crew, and why they are so hateful and and angry with us, I did not personally call you a liar did I John? It was a rhetorical statement construed in order to simplify the meaning of my post. I see now that you don't have very good grammatical skill in English, perhaps you are from another country, and if so, I  my friend....

 No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

You call Jesus a liar John. I believe in Him100%

Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

You are stubbornly dedicated to your own narcissistic belief John. You are unmovable, and unable to find the simple truth of the free gift offered to all men from Jesus Christ.

I have prayed for you, and that's all I can do now. I've tried to show your mistake, and you refuse to listen, you have become arrogant in your own teachings, in spite of what Jesus repeated many,many times. May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

 John, my brother. To be quite honest - as I always am. You appear to be obsessive in your posts. You and I have engaged in three different topics. Two, I flat out disagree with you on. The third...Which was the one about people or "tribes" who hadn't heard the Bible. or come to know Jesus. The premise was whether they got to heaven or not. At first, I believed they did. The premise being our God as a merciful, Just, God. However - upon further study of the Bible, I came to discover that Jesus enters each of our lives through many different approaches, and that each man is judged on how he.she responds to His Will.
 I openly admitted my mistake, and even added several Bible verses which corresponded to the topic.

 Our second debate was whether God condemns the Mentally Ill, or babies.
You believe He does, I do not believe it. We went back and fourth on that one also my friend. Othere's also tried to get throught to you. However - you stubbornly refused to budge.

 Out latest debate has become somewhat of a novel. Your positiopn is that God has preselected all those who will be saved, and the rest, or, the unsaved, Will be put to death, and sent to a burning lake of fire called Hell, (to paraphrase you)for "God's own pleasure" You - of course have found yourself to be worthy and count yourself as one of the elite chosen. Even though Jesus Christ Himself syas many times that His Sacrafice, and subsequent salvation is open to "Whosoever" bel;ieves in Him, or even "calls on His name" You stubornly, and incorrectly try to convince the readers on this forum, and God knows how many other forums you pervert the meaning of that term in a vain attempt to keep your membership exclusive.

 Listen here, and for the very last time my friend. The wonderful, Good news is that the gift of eternal salvation is open for everyone, and anyone who would believe in Him. Jesus loves us all John, He wants so desperately for each and everyone of us to accept Him as their lord and saviour.

Amos 9:11-12 "‘After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, in order that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old."

Psalm 19:4 "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Isaiah 60:3 "And nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising."

Isaiah 65:1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’ a nation which did not call on My name."

Jeremiah 4:2 "And you will swear, 'As Yehovah lives,' in truth, in justice, and in righteousness; then the nations will bless themselves in Him, and in Him they will glory."

Matthew 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;; I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall proclaim justice to the gentiles.

JOHN watch carefully my brother.In Matthew 12:8 God the Father speaks of His servant, His beloved in whom He is well pleased...We can agree that this is Jesus right? What does God the Father say next John?...." I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall proclaim justice to the gentiles " JOHN, God's CHOSEN people were the Jews!

Acts 10:15 "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy

Acts 10:43-44 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Romans 3:29-30 "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Romans 9:24-25 "Even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As he says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ and her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’"

Ephesians 3:6 "To be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

1 Timothy 2:7 "And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

 God Sent Apostles
 To The Gentiles

Matthew 10:18 and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us, ‘I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the end of the earth.’"

Acts 14:27 And when they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles

 Ephesians 2:11-13 Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands—remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

 My brother John. You no longer have to follow after the false teachings of misguided men who ignore what Jesus tells us. Jesus tells us allare welcome, whosoever believes on him, or calls on His Name, sahll be saved.

 His sacrafice and shed blood on the cross of Golgotha was open to every single child He created...All of us. Black, White, Yellow, Red, and everything in between. He loves us all John. He wants us all John. Anyone who calls on His name will be saved. Whosoever believes in Him, shall be saved. There is only one inforgivable sin, and that is to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 John. Christ's gift is not an exclusive, elite, gentlemen's club. Christ's gift of eternal salvation is open and available to anyone who believes in Him...

 

 Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?  


 Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[Left Coast]

This will be in two posts I don’t have the time to edit it enough.
I am leaving for 2-3 weeks it should give you enough time to actually respond for a change. That is if you are willing.

Bronzesnake

Lets be real here.
Have you actually read my posts, and yours?

I can not, and will not however, allow you to personally call me a liar ever again John. That my friend is your final warning.

When you accuse someone of something that is not true you are bearing false witness.

You call Jesus a liar John. I believe in Him100%

I have not called Jesus a liar. I have made it very clear I believe in Jesus 100%.
I do not agree with your definition of whosoever, I am in good company.
I ask you again, do you have the guts to answer?
Is Charles Spurgeon calling Jesus a liar?

Bronzesnake
You Lie because you have made a false accusation.
If I have called Jesus a liar, BE SPECIFIC. When and where?
If it is your claim that because I don’t agree with YOUR interpretation of the Greek word “pas”, which is interpreted as; whosoever, all, etc, then it is not that I am claiming Jesus is a liar, I am claiming that you have not yet come to understand the full meaning of this word.
Is Charles Spurgeon also calling Jesus a liar?
Charles Spurgeon, on the word pas, from his sermon, Particular Redemption.  http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

You have also born false witness again by bringing up an error I made and corrected.

Your positiopn is that God has preselected all those who will be saved, and the rest, or, the unsaved, Will be put to death, and sent to a burning lake of fire called Hell, (to paraphrase you)for "God's own pleasure"

You did not paraphrase me at all.
I made it very clear that because I was in a hurry to leave town, as I am today, I made a mistake in what I said concerning “God’s own pleasure”.
He has no pleasure in the wicked, that he would rescue anyone from judgment He does for His pleasure. I did not say he sends people to the lake of fire for his pleasure.

WOOOPS!!!!!!!!

Bronzesnake,

I am very sorry in my rush to get out of town I said something very wrong.

Your response...

The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

 My friend! - God hates for His pleasure?

I certainly didn’t word that right! As it shows in the verses I presented He saves who He chooses because it serves His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

WHY do you bear false witness?
Are you doing it on purpose, or are you that incapable of understanding simple English?  
Perhaps you don’t actually read the posts, that would explain why you have not been able to answer the points I have made.

Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

I have shown clearly that it is your doctrine that leaves people without hope of salvation, you have not answered my posts on this.
Instead you continue to repeat the same ridiculous accusation.

However, I do believe your doctrine is potentially harmful John. It leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation.

Quite the opposite, YOUR DOCTRINE leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. With mine there is ALWAYS hope.
With yours there is no hope for infants or the mentally ill. How can a baby make a freewill decision?
The bible makes it clear we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born. We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
You would have to tell Mrs. Doe:
I am sorry Mrs. Doe, your son was drunk, and passing a joint to someone when his car went off the road. He has sustained a permanent brain injury. He will never know who you are or who he is, he certainly can’t know who Jesus is. Your son can make no choices, so he is going to burn in hell.
Where is the hope in your doctrine?
My doctrine gives hope to all, because the brain is not involved. It is all Gods work.

[Left Coast]

Part 2

I repeat, Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
My doctrine gives hope to ALL.
No one can know who God will or will not save, but with my doctrine salvation is available to everyone from the tiniest infant to the oldest of the old on their death bed.
It doesn’t matter how developed their mind is, it doesn’t matter if they now live their life in a vegetive state.
I have answered your accusation, your accusation is false.
You don’t seem to be able to answer my question, WHY?
Another question I asked that you have never answered:

He doesn’t choose us because we are somehow better than someone else, it is not because He respects what kind of person we are.
Actually freewill is a gospel in which the superior people have salvation.
They are smarter or more humble than the unsaved.
Two brothers raised in the same environment, one becomes saved the other does not, WHY?
Obviously the one that becomes saved is taking the wise path the unsaved is foolish, what separates the two?

WHY does one become saved and the other does not? Is the one that becomes saved smarter, wiser, more humble? What separates the two?
Another point you have not addressed.
You claim we can seek for God.
The bible says we cannot. Which is true? I am going to go with the bible.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Yes the command goes out to seek him, but no one will seek him. It is our obligation but we will not be able to do it.

We did this verse earlier.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God often gives us commands to do and we have an obligation to do them but we won’t.
If you seek him with all your heart and all your soul you will find him, but we can’t devote 100% of ourselves to seeking God.

De 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

As usual you are silent concerning Romans 3. WHY can’t you answer?
You think that salvation is available to every person on the planet, and yet you also claim that it is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus, WHICH IS IT?

The third...Which was the one about people or "tribes" who hadn't heard the Bible. or come to know Jesus. The premise was whether they got to heaven or not. At first, I believed they did. The premise being our God as a merciful, Just, God. However - upon further study of the Bible, I came to discover that Jesus enters each of our lives through many different approaches, and that each man is judged on how he.she responds to His Will.
 I openly admitted my mistake, and even added several Bible verses which corresponded to the topic.

I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible

There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

...

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him. A select group.

WHY would God send strong delusion?
WHY wouldn’t Jesus pray for the whole world?
Not only have you not answered these questions but John 17:9 ties in with John 6:37, another verse you have not answered.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 
ARE YOU CALLING JESUS A LIAR?
All that the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to him. Can’t you see that it is Gods action.
Jesus prays for them, He DOESN’T pray for the world.
WHY won’t you answer these verses?
Can’t you see that they contradict your doctrine?
WHY do you avoid answering the verses and questions I have given you?
You repeat yourself without addressing the errors in your teaching, WHY are you deaf?
WHY can’t you see:

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

God causes us to approach Him.
God chooses us.
To believe unto salvation is 100% Gods work. Look at my signature verses.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Left Coast and Bronzesnake,

I don't have much doubt that both of you are brothers in Christ. I think that the disagreement and exchange of information could be beneficial if it could be cooled down some. It is more than certain that neither of you are going to change your opinions, and my opinion is set in concrete.

Left Coast, I have no problem in calling you brother, but I disagree with you completely on your doctrine. It is set in concrete that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL - EVERYONE who will believe, confess, and ask forgiveness to the LORD AND SAVIOUR for ALL who call on HIS Name as LORD over their lives. John, I know it makes you angry that I won't debate this with you, but I don't feel led to debate matters like this. I would simply tell you it is completely false doctrine that attempts to define and limit the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for all. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can hear the Word of God, believe in the GOOD NEWS OF THE CROSS, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. There really isn't any mystery at all about predestination. Everything was and is an open book to Almighty God before the foundation of the world. HE knew the number of hairs on your head and whether or not you would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour before the foundation of the world. Foreknowledge by ALMIGHTY GOD does not suggest that you were somehow commanded or created as a robot that would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

If Almighty God wished to make such commands, HE certainly could, but he didn't. It is more than obvious that HE wishes all men to be saved, so why not simply COMMAND it or breathe it SO and DONE. There would be no need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the CROSS, and there would be no need for pastors and sharing the GOOD NEWS. The simplicity is overwhelming - man was given the choice of good and evil and to believe or disbelieve. Man chose evil and disobedience with Adam. Man has been given choices to make from the very start, and ALL men are in desperate need of a Lord and Saviour. ALL men were offered a Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ on the CROSS. Men may accept or reject, just like Adam.

In conclusion, you are confusing the foreknowledge of God in ALL THINGS with a doctrine that says many men can't ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and ask HIM to be the LORD over their lives. There no doctrine with any Biblical basis that says that only some men can accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and all others will be rejected. Again, it is simply confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Any man can hear the WORD - The GOOD NEWS - and believe it and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. Anything less makes the CROSS in vain and makes the clear statement that there is no GOOD NEWS.

John, post all you wish, but I won't debate it with you. I have studied in detail everything you believe about predestination. I will simply say that you are a very confused brother in Christ. I love you brother, but the GOOD NEWS is for everyone. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[ollie]

Oklahoma Howdy to Left Coast and Bronzesnake,

I don't have much doubt that both of you are brothers in Christ. I think that the disagreement and exchange of information could be beneficial if it could be cooled down some. It is more than certain that neither of you are going to change your opinions, and my opinion is set in concrete.

Left Coast, I have no problem in calling you brother, but I disagree with you completely on your doctrine. It is set in concrete that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL - EVERYONE who will believe, confess, and ask forgiveness to the LORD AND SAVIOUR for ALL who call on HIS Name as LORD over their lives. John, I know it makes you angry that I won't debate this with you, but I don't feel led to debate matters like this. I would simply tell you it is completely false doctrine that attempts to define and limit the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for all. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can hear the Word of God, believe in the GOOD NEWS OF THE CROSS, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. There really isn't any mystery at all about predestination. Everything was and is an open book to Almighty God before the foundation of the world. HE knew the number of hairs on your head and whether or not you would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour before the foundation of the world. Foreknowledge by ALMIGHTY GOD does not suggest that you were somehow commanded or created as a robot that would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

If Almighty God wished to make such commands, HE certainly could, but he didn't. It is more than obvious that HE wishes all men to be saved, so why not simply COMMAND it or breathe it SO and DONE. There would be no need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the CROSS, and there would be no need for pastors and sharing the GOOD NEWS. The simplicity is overwhelming - man was given the choice of good and evil and to believe or disbelieve. Man chose evil and disobedience with Adam. Man has been given choices to make from the very start, and ALL men are in desperate need of a Lord and Saviour. ALL men were offered a Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ on the CROSS. Men may accept or reject, just like Adam.

In conclusion, you are confusing the foreknowledge of God in ALL THINGS with a doctrine that says many men can't ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and ask HIM to be the LORD over their lives. There no doctrine with any Biblical basis that says that only some men can accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and all others will be rejected. Again, it is simply confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Any man can hear the WORD - The GOOD NEWS - and believe it and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. Anything less makes the CROSS in vain and makes the clear statement that there is no GOOD NEWS.

John, post all you wish, but I won't debate it with you. I have studied in detail everything you believe about predestination. I will simply say that you are a very confused brother in Christ. I love you brother, but the GOOD NEWS is for everyone. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks BEP.

[ollie]

tell me. what makes you beleive in god? there is no proof anywhere. I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true. the truth is you dont really know. the bible could just be a book of fiction. and you might never know. you could just go nowhere when you die. so, what makes you beleive?

i'm agnostic by the way

"what makes you beleive?"

God's word called to my heart upon hearing and reading it.