Rapture

[Bronzesnake]

Hello my friend. Great debate! Thank you.

Revelation 8

6And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.

7The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

When did this happen?



8The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,

When did this happen?



9and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

When did this happen?



10The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters.

When did this happen?



11The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

When did this happen?



12The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

When did this happen?

Here, it is absolutely unambiguous - the sun is not a spiritual representation of the New Testament, it is literally the sun. The moon is not a spiritual representation of the Old Testament - it is literally the moon. Nowhere in the entire Bible can I find a single reference which corroborates your assertion that the sun ever represents the N.T. or the moon ever represents the O.T.


13Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

The dire warning from an angel makes it painfully obvious that these judgments are literal and directed specifically at those who dwell on the earth. You can not insert a spiritual meaning here.


Revelation 9

The Fifth Trumpet--the Bottomless Pit

1Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

2He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

If these verses are figurative, then the following, corresponding verses become ver confusing.

3Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

This verse can not be "spiritual" This is literal. See where this brings us? When we don't recognise these scriptures as literal events, we are forced to mix a "spiritual" message with the literal. This leads to an impossible scenario of having to decide (for ourselves) which is which. The men who have the seals on their foreheads are in fact the 144,000 Jews - so who are the rest who do not have the seal? Christians?


5And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

Here again, this is literal, even having a time frame.


6And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

Were men in 70 A.D. invincible?
 

7The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.

8They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.

9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.

10They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months.

Could this description be John's way of describing seeing men in the cockpits of attack helecopters?


11They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

12The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.


The Sixth Trumpet--Army from the East

13Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

15And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.

Did a third of "mankind" die in 70 A.D.?

16The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

No army on earth numbered two hundred million in 70 A.D.
In fact, no army on earth numbered tha large, until now! China has a standing army of over two hundread million. What a coincidence - China is in the East

 
17And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone.

Could John be describing our modern tanks?


18A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

 19For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.

20The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

21and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

So, when did all these things occur in 70 A.D.?

In order to keep this post relatively short, I'll post the major highlights, and simply ask you to consider if, and when such things occurred in 70 A.D.


The 7 Seals (Revelation 6:1 - 8:1)

- the white horse (Antichrist)

- the red horse (war)

- the black horse (famine)

- the pale horse (death)

- souls under the altar (Tribulation martyrs)

- great earthquake

- silence in Heaven


The 7 Trumpets (Revelation 8:2 - 11:19)

- hail and fire mixed with blood

- mountain thrown into the sea

- the star, Wormwood

- a third of the sun, moon & stars struck

- plague of locusts

- release of the 4 angels

- judgments & rewards


The 7 Bowls (Revelation 15 - 16)

- ugly & painful sores

- the sea turns to blood

- rivers & springs turn to blood

- sun scorches people

- darkness

- Euphrates River dried up

- tremendous earthquake


No one has been able to answer exactly when Russia - Magog (yes, I have solid proof that Magao is Russia) the Arab nations and the "Kings of the East (China, Japan etc) gathered together and launched the most devestating attack in history. Please tell me when this happened, because it's not found in any history book I've ever read, and I've read lots .

No one has been able to tell me when these invading armies were completely wiped out. There were so many dead that it took the Jews seven years to bury them. Did all this happen in 70 A.D.? The only way to explain away these scriptures is to "spiritualize" them. These verses are highly detailed accounts of literal events, that much is assured.

Thank you again psalmistsinger, and Reba. It is a pleasure to discuss with this very interesting topic with you my friends.

John

[Reba]

Thanks Palmistsinger!.... Well said....

[Bronzesnake]

 Thanks Pastor and BEP - Very well said!  

Just funnin!

[Reba]

Rev 6:2
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
KJV

Rev 19:11

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
KJV


 Where in scripture do you fined this; "the white horse (Antichrist)"

[psalmistsinger]

Here, it is absolutely unambiguous - the sun is not a spiritual representation of the New Testament, it is literally the sun. The moon is not a spiritual representation of the Old Testament - it is literally the moon. Nowhere in the entire Bible can I find a single reference which corroborates your assertion that the sun ever represents the N.T. or the moon ever represents the O.T.

Forgive me for not getting up here sooner. Time just does not allow me.

Often times in the New Testament the inhabitants of the New Covenant are referred in terms of "light"

Matthew 5:14 - "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

1 Thessalonians 5:5 - "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Jesus came shone into the final days of the Old Covenant and it was said -

John 1:5 - "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

The light was Christ Himself, the Mediator of a better covenant. Where did the Light shine? In the religious world of that day. The darkness that did not comprehend Him was the priesthood of the Old Covenant.
 
Works never understands Grace.

In the book of Genesis I believe along with the story of creation - and yes I believe God  created all things by the Word of His Mouth - I believe there is also a level of spiritual depth as well. God said "let there be light" on the first day, and on the fourth day - after trees and grass and fruit - He created the Sun and Moon.

Genesis 1: 16-19   "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

But I think Reba has struck upon a problem with many of our interpretations of Revelation when she asks about your definition for the White Horse.

Unlike Matthew 24, which I believe to be more direct, John is writing a vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not a revelation of the earths final days. To this symbolism is assigned meanings that fit each ones particular view of eschatology. To some the White Horse equals Antichrist, but the text doesn't say so, or the beast equals Anti Christ, but again, the text doesn't say provide this definition.

Personally I don't know that Revelation can be read in the same chronological way that Matthew 24 can be. I am not trying to get around your questions, I just don't read it that way. You, and again this is by no means a cut,  read a verse and see, possibly,  attack helicopters. I read a verse and start wondering how this ties into the Covenants, or what the early Christians were going through. I am not saying which is right - time will certainly tell - I am saying that you and I come to some rather symbolic text in Revelation with different views.
 
Because I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ will be about His Person, and His Covenant, that is what I am looking for. As I said earlier, this is not my "forte", I certainly have no lock upon biblical interpretation, particularly in the book of Revelation. I confess, however, that as I believe the New Testament is primarily about the establishment of the covenants I approach Revelation the same way.

I don't understand every symbol, and I would rather just admit that than to try to apply a definition I don't really see, or give an interpretive meaning not found in the text. When I find a corroborating scripture within the bible I am of the opinion that I should let the bible define itself , such as the Sea in Rev. 21. I believe what meaning I find in Revelation will have correlation in the rest of scripture as well. I don't belive either Revelation or the rest of scripture, without applying other definitions and ideas not found in the first century, readily teach the Rapture.

I'm sure these are not satisfactory responses, but I am trying to be as honest as I can. As always I hope it at least proves thoughtful. I truly do enjoy the reading, and I'm glad to answer what I can when I can. I'm sure we both have reached where we are over a period of time, and not over night. While I know will not agree on this particular matter I want you to know that I respect and honor you as a brother in Christ. Thank God for His unending love!

God Bless,
In His Grace....

[Bronzesnake]

psalmistsinger - thank you again for showing me such patients.

I must disagree with your "light" equals sun and moon asertion my friend. We do understand what God means when He describes us as "lights" to the world etc, it's not hard because the verses with which such figurative language is used, can easily be understood when taken in the context from which it is given.
For example : 1 Thessalonians 5:5 - "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

 There can be no mistake here, not unless we get foolish and completely ignore the fact that God has identified "humans" as being the light source - "Ye" are "children" of light. God puts it in context.

Look at the sun and moon verses...

Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Gen 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put [them for] his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Gen 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.

Exd 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.

Exd 17:12 But Moses' hands [were] heavy; and they took a stone, and put [it] under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

Exd 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Exd 22:26 If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down:

Lev 22:7 And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it [is] his food.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Luk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psa 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

Psa 121:6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

Ecc 12:2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

Sgs 6:10 Who [is] she [that] looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, [and] terrible as [an army] with banners?

Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of [their] tinkling ornaments [about their feet], and [their] cauls, and [their] round tires like the moon,

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

The rider on the white horse of rev 6 is satan. satan copies everything Jesus deos - how else could he deceive even the Jews during the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation?

Notice he is depicted with a "bow" (not a sword, as the True Jesus has in Rev 19:11) and he went out warring, and conquering, just as it is thoroughly described throughout Revelations. When Jesus returns on His white Horse, He is not holding a bow, He has a two edged sword, and He doesn't go out warring and conquering - He destroys satan and his armies with the brightness of His coming.

John


Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.  

[Reba]

Gen 37:9

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
KJV

[Bronzesnake]

Gen 37:9

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
KJV

This is clearly identified as a dream, and the meaning is given.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.  

Gen 37:10 And he told [it] to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What [is] this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?  

 The sun and the moon represented Joseph's father and mother. The eleven stars were his brothers. The meaning is given, we don't need to guess.
 Not only was the meaning given, but Joseph literally came to rule over not only his father, mother and eleven brothers, but all of Egypt as the Phaero's prime minister.

 This is a fantastic example which shows us that even when the verses "seem" to be "mythical" or "spiritual" they are explained so we don't need to come up with our own ideas, but they are prophecies of future literal events.

Take care Reba.

John

[psalmistsinger]

When I spoke of the Sun and Moon representing the Covenants I did not mean to imply that every mention contains this meaning, but I do believe there are allegorical instances supported by other scriputre where this applies.

When Paul says the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all we know, because he has said so, that he is speaking of the New Covenant, and not a human mother.

When Paul says-

Ephesians 5:8 - "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light"

- we understand because of his phrasing that he is not saying we are without flesh, but we are the light of the Lord because His Life is in us.

Jesus is the Light of the world. We know this does not mean He is the sunshine outside, but being Himself God He is the Light that gives understanding of God to the world. Since Jesus has used the term "light" to describe Himself who is the mediator of the Covenant if follows , in my opinion, that when the sun is being spoken of in allegorical terms it appiles to the New Covenant.

God, after light was created in Genesis, gave two great lights -one to rule the Day, and the the other the Night. we are children of the day, children of the new covenant. The night is where darkness is, and Jesus shined into the darkness of the Old Covenant and brough them the Light -Himself! Two great lights -the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old ruled the darkness - before the Light of Christ shone into the world. The New Covenat now rules the Day.

When I read from Matthew 24:29 -

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  

-  I think of the scripture that Sis. Reba quoted and, from my point of view, consider that the stars of heaven represent the children of Israel, the children of the Old Covenant, and wonder at how this New Covenant has superceded the one passed down by fleshly lineage.

I understand you're saying everything is literally what it says, but at the same time there are admonishments from the Lord such as "let him who has ears to hear, hear, and "the words that I speak are Spirit and they are Life".  

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, He did not mean literally, although Nicodemus was hearing it that way. At least Jesus did not mean it literally the way that Nicodemus thought. That is to say that the Bible always means what it says, but does not always clearly say what it means unless we have our ears spiritually tuned.

Paul said -

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

None of that means I am giving the right interpretation, and you the wrong, to spiritual things of course, but I am trying to establish some scriptures will have meaning other than what is on the surface.

Many have applied - and this is just for example, and not a trap or anything - Satan, or the anti-christ, to the Abomination of Desolation, and the White Horse. There is no scripture that says this, but I'm sure this is done because it is believed these scriptures, taken with the way other scriptures are interpreted from a particular point of view, point in that direction. I disagree with the interpretation, but I understand these are symbolic scriptures -particularly from Revelation.

When I say the Sun and the Moon represent the Covenants in some instances where the meaning appears to me symbolic I am admittedly not doing so because there is a scripture verse that says the Sun and Moon are that, anymore than there is a scripture verse that literally proclaims most of what gets said about Revelation. I am saying this because again, in my view, other scriptures with allegorical text appear, to me, to support it.

I know this debate becomes a bit circular Bronzesnake, but if this is the biggest disagreement we ever have in life we can count ourselves blessed! I appreciate the good tone you have kept through out and feel at ease calling you brother.  God bless you my friend.

Tom - I haven't tried to avoid your questions either, and I apologize for not having responded. Although I have Preterists leanings eschatology wise, for all I've written here I don't consider myself an expert, or anything. Actually eschatology is something I normally have avoided.  

I think that not all Preterists see every exact point the same. There are differing opinions there as in anything else. All would agree I think that 70A.D. was pivotal as the fulfillment of Matthew 24, and the last gasps of an already dead from Calvary Covenant.

It is not believed that the age of Grace ended, but rather that the age of Grace, or the New Covenant, is a world without end ( Eph.3:21).

You mention Revelation being written 20 years after 70 A.D, but many believe it was written before. I think the 90 A.D date comes from a man who wrongly said Jesus was 50 at the time of the crucifixion ( I promise I'm not making this up), so obviously his reliability is questioned.  It is also believed curious that John does not mention the destruction of the temple if Revelation is written later.  

If you're still interested in what Preterist believe about eschatology I think you can probably find more detailed answers than I can give at

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

http://www.preterism.info/

Some preterist writers can be a little smug, which I don't care for, but there are some good things too. If I can answer anything I will be glad too, and honest if I cannot.

Just be patient with my slow responses

In His Grace....

[Reba]

 

Yes Bronze it was a dream, not just a dream but one to fortell the future....


And John was in the spirit....Rev 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
KJV
 the two to me are not so far apart......

[Bronzesnake]

Yes Bronze it was a dream, not just a dream but one to fortell the future....


And John was in the spirit....Rev 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
KJV
 the two to me are not so far apart......

 So, are you agreeing with me then?

 Joseph was given the details of a future event by God.
The vision became a literal reality.

 John was also given the details of future events by God. Why wouldn't we expect these details to become a literal reality also?

 The bible is full of prophecies which have come to pass literally. Some of us read these prophecies, and refuse to believe they are prophecies because they have not come to pass yet. The bible shows us that there were many even in the Old Testament who doubted God's prophetic warnings. It's only after these prophecies come to pass that many come to believe them. Joseph's own family scoffed at his visions - that is, until they came true. I see this same thing happening today amoung many of us Christians.

 Some of us say that the Old testament was full of literal prophecies, but the New Testament is "alagorical", "mythical" and "spiritual". Are these two different books? Are they written by different God's? Why would God make such a radical change?

 The reason some of us believe this, is because the prophecies from the Old Testament are for the most part, literal historical facts. Whereas the New Testament prophecies are for the most part, as of yet unfulfilled.
 We won't believe it until we see it.


Psalmistsinger my friend. You have not answered my question in regard to when the Russian, Arabs, and Asians attacked Israel, and when did they get destroyed so mercilessly that it took seven years to bury the dead? It seems like are avoiding this, and all of Blackeyedpeas questions.

Also, If Jesus' prophecy about the destruction of the temple, including the description that not a single stone would be left upon another, had not come to pass as of today, and was part of the "end times" prophecies in Revelation, would you "spiritualize" that prophecy?

 Would your explanation be - " the temple represents God's place in our hearts, and the destruction of it represents man's unbelief"? If not, then why would you take such a prophecy from the New Testament literally (as it certainly was) instead of "spiritually" as you do the other prophecies?
If yes, then you will admit there is a probelem here.

Take care my friends.

John

[Soldier4Christ]

Something to think about here ......  Is it not possible that an actual event also has a spiritual meaning to it? I can see what Psalmistsinger is saying and the verses spoken of can most assuredly have a spiritual meaning yet I also see where these are events being spoken of that will actually take place.

We see this through many things that took place throughout the Bible where actual events also had a spiritual significance.

[Bronzesnake]

Something to think about here ......  Is it not possible that an actual event also has a spiritual meaning to it? I can see what Psalmistsinger is saying and the verses spoken of can most assuredly have a spiritual meaning yet I also see where these are events being spoken of that will actually take place.

We see this through many things that took place throughout the Bible where actual events also had a spiritual significance.

Very good point Pastor Roger.

The trouble here is that these prophecies are being taken strictly spiritually. Or, it has been suggested that most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.

I strongly disagree with both these ideas. I do believe there are lessons in each verse in the bible. However, I believe we must take His Word literally, or we can never hope to discover the correct lesson given.
For example;
Jesus clearly gave us many signs to watch for, so we would be ready for His rapture. If we spiritualize these signs and warnings, how can we ever accept the rapture - how can we ever be ready and watchful as He commanded us to?

How many people laughed at Noah, and didn't get in the ark?
How many laughed at Moses, and suffered the wrath of God in Egypt?
How many laughed at Lot and died in a Holy inferno in Soddom & Gommorah?

 Those people refused to take God's warnings literally.
God never forces anyone to do His will. He didn't force anyone into the ark - they chose freely to saty away from it.
The same thing will happen to those who refuse to take the signs and warnings of Jesus about the rapture. God will only take those who chose to believ Him and are waiting, and watching with full oil lamps.

 It is exactly this reason why I am so stubborn in debating this subject. I don't want any of my friends to miss the ship home. It breaks God's heart, and any loving Christian to even consider that. So I will continue to post chapter and verse. My only challenge is that I have to learn to be careful not to get agressive about it. I am learning!

[Soldier4Christ]

I agree completely. If we close our eyes to all that God wants us to see then we are missing out on half of the message. That half is just as important as the other half. We need the whole to fully understand the message of God and what He expects of us.

Personally I am a a believer of the post-tribulation. I will not agrue my points here for that belief and the only other thing I will add to that is we must be prepared to stand up for God no matter what we may need to face in the future, to endure to the end.

We cannot be prepared to that "enduring" if we do not take this prophecy as being a literal future event. We cannot wish these things away simply by saying they are not talking about a future event when there is so much in these verses that has not yet taken place.


Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


When we compare all these verses we can see that the sun and moon are not just being used spiritually speaking but is telling us of an actual event. An event that we know has not yet taken place because Jesus has not yet returned. If he had we would not being seeing so much evil in this world today.

 

[Reba]

Yes Bronze it was a dream, not just a dream but one to fortell the future....


And John was in the spirit....Rev 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
KJV
 the two to me are not so far apart......

 Joseph was given the details of a future event by God.
The vision became a literal reality.

 John was also given the details of future events by God. Why wouldn't we expect these details to become a literal reality also? So, are you agreeing with me then?

 The bible is full of prophecies which have come to pass literally. Some of us read these prophecies, and refuse to believe they are prophecies because they have not come to pass yet. The bible shows us that there were many even in the Old Testament who doubted God's prophetic warnings. It's only after these prophecies come to pass that many come to believe them. Joseph's own family scoffed at his visions - that is, until they came true. I see this same thing happening today amoung many of us Christians.

 Some of us say that the Old testament was full of literal prophecies, but the New Testament is "alagorical", "mythical" and "spiritual". Are these two different books? Are they written by different God's? Why would God make such a radical change?

 The reason some of us believe this, is because the prophecies from the Old Testament are for the most part, literal historical facts. Whereas the New Testament prophecies are for the most part, as of yet unfulfilled.
 We won't believe it until we see it.


Psalmistsinger my friend. You have not answered my question in regard to when the Russian, Arabs, and Asians attacked Israel, and when did they get destroyed so mercilessly that it took seven years to bury the dead? It seems like are avoiding this, and all of Blackeyedpeas questions.

Also, If Jesus' prophecy about the destruction of the temple, including the description that not a single stone would be left upon another, had not come to pass as of today, and was part of the "end times" prophecies in Revelation, would you "spiritualize" that prophecy?

 Would your explanation be - " the temple represents God's place in our hearts, and the destruction of it represents man's unbelief"? If not, then why would you take such a prophecy from the New Testament literally (as it certainly was) instead of "spiritually" as you do the other prophecies?
If yes, then you will admit there is a probelem here.

Take care my friends.

John

" So, are you agreeing with me then?"
  nice try Bronze  sheesh  


Did the moon literally bowdown before Josheph?

Nor did it take 2000+ years to happen.

I dont know how to put this into words so here is my list again...


The Cross of Christ is the center of all history ( not meaning years) but like  the turning point.

Many things changed because of His life and death.

The end of the age of blood sacrifice the end of the way of life for the Jews.

Bringing on the New Covenant  the NT speaks of.  
 
I see 70 AD as the spirital and physical end to the old system, Most here dont...


  His Wod is written so well as to debated for zillions of years what a Book!