Questions?

[ARPEL]

http://www.tribwatch.com/roots.htm



Pre Tribulationism,  is a rather new doctrine foreign, it is grounded in another doctrine proposed in the 19th century; called  “dispensationalism”.

Prior to the 19th century,  the church  recorded very little, and little  was written about the Lord’s return, Jerome did write concerning this in;

  “Jerome's Apology In Answer To Rufinus--Book III" (AD 402)

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Pretrib8.htm


To this point the  earliest of teachings, were known as post tribulation, or pre-millennial.

The word pre millennial cannot be used to describe a post tribulation rapture today, because the modern day definition would include all three positions;

pre-trib, mid-trib and post trib, which are all pre millennial.

Does anyone know the origins of  the pre-tribulation rapture teaching?

 I have searched the internet and always wind up, with four names which stand out prominently in the earliest of advancement  of the doctrine in this country and scotland or england, in the early to late late 19th century.

Here are the names;

1.   Margaret MacDonald, a 15 year old girl involved in spirit-sm, who supposedly  prophesied about the  error of men in interpreting  the “parousia” coming of the Lord at Mat 24:27, she circulated a written revelation she had received WHILE STUDYING THE SCRIPTURES in 1830 in SCOTLAND!

Macdonald wrote:
". . . . Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; [here comes the switch from a visible parousia to the secret coming:] but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed,  the eye of God in His people.


2.  Robert Norton, who wrote the;

Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, (Margarets relatives) of Port-Glasgow [1840],

http://www.bsmvt.org/mm.html


3.  Edward Irving, the same man who studied bible with the founder of Russrllism or Jehovah Witness’s. in New York, USA

“Irving was a Presbyterian pastor,  ex communicated by the Church of Scotland, and moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church.

MacDonald was a member of Irving’s church

(Irving taught that Jesus had a fallen sinful nature and only kept from sinning by the power of the Holy Spirit.  

According to John Mac Arthur, in his book :   “Charismatic Chaos”  1999, pg 234,  writes;

“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there should be a Secret Rapture of the Church at a secret coming until it was given forth as “an utterance” in Mr. Irving’s church  from what was then received as being the voice of the Spirit.  But whether anyone asserted such a thing or not it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose.  It came not from Holy Scripture , but from that which pretended to be the Spirit of God”

What were these manifestations that hit Irving's church at this time? Here is a description by John MacArthur:


"Then in the early nineteenth century, Scottish Presbyterian pastor Edward Irving and members of his congregation practiced speaking in tongues and prophesying. Irvingite prophets often contradicted each other, their prophecies failed to come to pass, and their meetings were characterized by wild excesses. The movement was further discredited when some of their prophets admitted to falsifying prophesies and others even attributed their "giftedness" to evil spirits. This group eventually became the Catholic Apostolic Church, which taught many false doctrines, embracing several Roman Catholic doctrines and creating twelve apostolic offices."

4.  John Darby,  left the Anglican priesthood in 1830, and devoted himself full-time to forming and feeding similar small gatherings both in Ireland and England. These were days of unrest not only in the National churches but also throughout the various non-conformist bodies. Higher Criticism  was beginning to gain ground among the Anglicans, as was the Tractarian movement with its trend toward Rome. At the same time the Irvingite heresy with its charismatic tongues and prophesying began to surface in London.

Out of this unsettled state of the professing body, many true believers were led to form small groups where there was freedom to worship the Lord Jesus in reliance upon the Holy Spirit and according to the Word of God. As a result many hungry-hearted Christians found in Darby a truly pioneering and God-sent leadership.

Then in 1832 B.W. Newton, leader of one of the larger assemblies located in Plymouth, England, invited Darby to come and share the ministry. This he did.

It was about this same time that Lady Powerscourt opened her "http://www.fransnet.clara.net/ireland/powerscourt.htm" for a series of Prophetic Truth Conferences, which continued for several years. Before long, Darby became the acknowledged leader of these meetings to which many clergymen were attracted, as well as some of the charismatic Irvingite leaders.

“Revival swept 1830 Scotland which brought about many charismatic manifestations, gifts, visions, healings, and glossolalia (speaking in tongues). Margaret received her revelation experience in the spring of 1830 and her prophetic views spread across Britain. John Darby, a leader of the Plymouth Brethern of England, visited Margaret. Later Darby incorporated Margaret's prophetic views into his endtime theology which became popularized as a two stage 2nd coming of Christ. Darby wrote volumes on Biblical subjects, translated the Bible (probably on your Computer Bible) and became known by some as the "father of modern dispensationalism."

http://www.landmarkchurch.com/endtime/rapture.html




Has any one done any research on this subject and have any differing information on this subject?

It appears that “dispensationalism was born about the same time as the pre trib doctrine, and all foru of these individuals played an important part in begining it.

I would like to know if there is any other persons which were consider stalwarts of the faith in these beginning years of these early teachings  of pre tribulationism.

Bible scholars, including :

John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Knox, John Hus, John Calvin, Isaac Newton, John Wycliffe, and John Bunyan,  did not hold to the pretribulation rapture view.

If it were not for the ominous historical beginings of what appears to be the history of this teaching in what appears to be this false prophecy of 1830 by Margaret Mac Donald, and these questionable characters, every christian on the continent would believe it, today; but

What about these other men of Faith mentioned above, why didn,t they take the bait, was it because they didn't buy the teaching of the spirit in Irving's church?


Thank You,

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Arpel,

The pre-tribulation rapture was actually taught before that. This is the earliest known commentary that I have ever seen on it.

So far as we can discover, the teaching of a pre-tribulation Rapture with a stated period of time between two phases of a future second coming of Christ, was first published in 1788 by Morgan Edwards, a Baptist minister in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Edwards was born in Wales, and actually wrote the book while he attended the Bristol Academy in England (1742-1744), but he did not publish the book until after he had been of a Baptist church in Philadelphia. The book was entitled Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the Following Titles: Millennium, and Last-Novelties.

[Reba]

C I Scofield

Seems to be a man who made dispensational teaching popluar.  His Bible notes, altough proven in error over the years, are saddly revered as scripture in many cases.


Modified...
Just for you Mr. Bepster  

Seems to be a man who made modern dispensational teaching popluar.  His Bible notes, altough proven in error over the years, are saddly revered as scripture in many cases.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

Dispensational teaching was done by the Apostle Paul about 2,000 years ago, and he even used the term "dispensation". The Apostle Paul also preached about the rapture of the Church which is THE BODY OF CHRIST, so there is nothing new at all about these teachings.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

[ARPEL]

Hi Arpel,

The pre-tribulation rapture was actually taught before that. This is the earliest known commentary that I have ever seen on it.

So far as we can discover, the teaching of a pre-tribulation Rapture with a stated period of time between two phases of a future second coming of Christ, was first published in 1788 by Morgan Edwards, a Baptist minister in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Edwards was born in Wales, and actually wrote the book while he attended the Bristol Academy in England (1742-1744), but he did not publish the book until after he had been of a Baptist church in Philadelphia. The book was entitled Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the Following Titles: Millennium, and Last-Novelties.

Hello Pastor Roger,


Morgan Edwards, writings have been attributed to be of a Mid Trib position, and not  Pre Trib.

Though Pre Trib and Mid Trib are lumped together by some who do not undertand the respective teachings of each position, and are not clear as to what they actually believe, those who are devoted Pre Tribb adherents, would never concede  there position to be mid trib.

So, that would strictly place them under the doctrinal teachings of these questionable men; Darby, Norton and Edwards.  and place them in the orbit of Mac Donalds prophetic principle tenets of the Pre Trib Doctrine;

Christs return would be seen only with the eye of God by those who are to be raptured (not every eye) , and her teaching of the ten virgins (Mat 25)

I am trying to ascertain, the origins of the PRE Trib teaching specifically.

While the Morgan Edwrads writings concerning the mid trib rapture are interesting, I have tried to locate the text containing the original writings of 56 pages dtd 1788. I have only been able to locate a 37 page work, which is clearly not the original, since it has *'s with comments and annotations,

Do you know of a good site which provides the written works of Morgan Edwards?

Would apreaciate any help, for future historical study.

Thanks, and God Bless

[ARPEL]

Brothers and Sisters,

Dispensational teaching was done by the Apostle Paul about 2,000 years ago, and he even used the term "dispensation". The Apostle Paul also preached about the rapture of the Church which is THE BODY OF CHRIST, so there is nothing new at all about these teachings.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Hello Tom,

I do agree with the scripture you have quoted and also, that Paul used the trem "dispensation" which is defined as "administration, stewradship" the nearest instance I might agree with, wherein he used this word to refer to a specific period in time would be his use of the word at Ephesions 1:10, refering to Christ's reigning during the Millenium as King of King's and Lord of Lord's.

But to claim that Paul taught a dispensational teaching in the form of doctrinal teachings as found today, would be to strecht the truth, a might.

The other three places wherein Paul uses this word, is not  time specific related, at all, but simply refers to his own stewardship entrusted to him, by God.

Are you a dispensationlist?

If you are, aside from what you have shared already is there any other historical teachings you rely on.

For instance what I am interested in knowing is, if any Bible Scholars who were considred solid Bible Theologians of the caliber of ;  John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Knox, John Hus, John Calvin, Isaac Newton, John Wycliffe, and John Bunyan,advanced or agree with the modern day dispensationalism teaching.

I shared this very question with a pastor recently who responded that he believed the pre Trib position because he had found an article pointing to the teaching in a 4th century sermon which had been preached by Eaphraim, as I asked him for more information, he was able to point me to a document known as the Pesudo-Ephraim, this is not what I am asking for, I am looking for solid evidence that the dispensational doctrine came from cannon script, advanced by Holy Men who are recognized as having impeccable virtue in handling and dispensing God's Word.  

Somehow, I have a problem with what I have been able to find on the origins of this teaching.

John Darby is actually considred the Father of dispensationalism ,

"Darby insisted that his own interpretation, over against that of the Millenarians, was correct because the Lord had revealed it to him by special revelation. "

"...what God has with infinite graciousness revealed to me concerning His dealing with the Church... it was in this the Lord was pleased, without man's teaching, first to open my eyes on this subject, that I might learn His will concerning it throughout."


Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

God Bless,

[nChrist]

Hello Arpel,

I've studied the Bible for over 50 years, and I do believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. This would not be because of any commentary or anything other than the study of the Holy Bible.

I rarely use terms like dispensations because they conjure up all kinds of different thoughts by each person who hears the term. I will simply say there are obvious dispensations in God's plan for the ages of man, and one must pay the proper attention to dispensations if they ever understand the Holy Bible (i.e. Law, Grace). That must be and is part of "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". The speaker, audience, purpose, time, and other factors must also be considered, but the biggest factor is always before or after the CROSS.

Arpel, you will find several highly detailed studies and debates about the rapture of the Church which is the BODY of Christ already on the forum. Do a search for "rapture" and you should have enough to keep you busy for several years.

I do believe that the Apostle Paul plainly taught the pre-tribulation rapture of the CHURCH, and I placed the details for my beliefs in numerous threads already on the forum. None of the men listed were any part of my study, and I believe the same would be true for others participating in the discussions and debates. The details and Scriptures supporting those details are already here in several places for you to study. Regardless of how you do it, it's a lengthy and difficult study.

I want to add that I expect there to be disagreement and various opinions in Bible prophecy, and that should not be used by anyone as a bar to fellowship or getting mad at someone. However, we also had that problem a couple of times on the forum. That's a shame because it ruined a couple of really good studies and discussions. Disagreement doesn't bother me at all, and I certainly believe that brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to disagree and still have fellowship. However, you will find some episodes of name-calling and anger in at least two detailed threads. Holler if you have problems finding them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 11:6 NASB  And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hello Arpel,

Do you know of a good site which provides the written works of Morgan Edwards?

I just found a web site for Morgan Edwards written essay. I have never seen the book that so many refer to as being his. I do not use written commentaries, or other written works of this nature,  in my Bible studies so I know little of this person or his writings. I know of him only because of the historical aspects of Christianity that I had to study.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/resources/morgan.html

[ARPEL]

Hello Arpel,

I've studied the Bible for over 50 years, and I do believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. This would not be because of any commentary or anything other than the study of the Holy Bible.

I rarely use terms like dispensations because they conjure up all kinds of different thoughts by each person who hears the term. I will simply say there are obvious dispensations in God's plan for the ages of man, and one must pay the proper attention to dispensations if they ever understand the Holy Bible (i.e. Law, Grace). That must be and is part of "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". The speaker, audience, purpose, time, and other factors must also be considered, but the biggest factor is always before or after the CROSS.

Arpel, you will find several highly detailed studies and debates about the rapture of the Church which is the BODY of Christ already on the forum. Do a search for "rapture" and you should have enough to keep you busy for several years.

I do believe that the Apostle Paul plainly taught the pre-tribulation rapture of the CHURCH, and I placed the details for my beliefs in numerous threads already on the forum. None of the men listed were any part of my study, and I believe the same would be true for others participating in the discussions and debates. The details and Scriptures supporting those details are already here in several places for you to study. Regardless of how you do it, it's a lengthy and difficult study.

I want to add that I expect there to be disagreement and various opinions in Bible prophecy, and that should not be used by anyone as a bar to fellowship or getting mad at someone. However, we also had that problem a couple of times on the forum. That's a shame because it ruined a couple of really good studies and discussions. Disagreement doesn't bother me at all, and I certainly believe that brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to disagree and still have fellowship. However, you will find some episodes of name-calling and anger in at least two detailed threads. Holler if you have problems finding them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 11:6 NASB  And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Hello Tom,

I whole heartedly agree with you, Futuristic discussations should not interfere with fellowship between believers, it is a secondary issue, and not to be confused with the more pressing doctrines of the faith, which bind us together.

While agreeing that there are teachings in scripture that can definitely be tied to the administration of faith, grace etc. etc.

I do not see it taught in scripture as it is today; it is clear to me, ALL believers begining with Abraham through Moses are saved "by grace throguh faith"  (Eph 2:8-9)  "not of themselves", "it is a gift of God".

Having said this, and refering to what Paul did or not write concerning dispensational teaching; what he did do is warn us not to be decieved by men's teachings.

Just this morning as I was reading in 2 Pet 1:20-21, I was reminded when I read;

That doctrine is not of any mans own personal interpretation, but was given by men of old as the sp[irit moved them. (I have paraphrased it)

One thing that I do remember is that John Darby, did claim to have this personal interpretation given to him of God, and this why his version of dispensationalism  (as taught today) was diferent from that of other milliniarists.

In your own understanding of dispensationalism, do you use or include the teaching of the 10 virgins?

And do you see, some of the scriptures speaking only to the Jewsish  Christians, while others applying only to Gentile Christians?

If you do how do you arrive at this?   I am not aware Paul ever made this clear n any of his writings.



Thanks for your insight.

God Bless

[ARPEL]

Hello Arpel,

Do you know of a good site which provides the written works of Morgan Edwards?

I just found a web site for Morgan Edwards written essay. I have never seen the book that so many refer to as being his. I do not use written commentaries, or other written works of this nature,  in my Bible studies so I know little of this person or his writings. I know of him only because of the historical aspects of Christianity that I had to study.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/resources/morgan.html

Thanks Pastor Roger,

I believe I have seen this site before, it only contains 36 pages, transcribed by Tim Warner.

If you ever run into the true copy, I would appreacite if you would bring it to my attention.

In my own studies concerning this matter I have come across earlier versions of roman catholic priests who have written concern the rapture, as I recall there was a jesuit, in the 15th or 16th century who did write something which supposedly was considered pre trib, but it has been dismissed by reformed scholars, others from the rcc followed with more closer tyo the present teachings, which were even incorporated into the present pre trib doctrine, My understanding is that Edward Irving translated Jesuits Laconza's work from spanish to english as I recall.


Well thanks anyhow,

God Bless,

[Evangelist]

Arpel:

Approx. 373 AD, there was published a book (one of several by the author), of which 4 copies currently exist.  The title of the books is:

On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World

and is attributed to Ephraem the Syriac, who was bishop of the Syrian church at the time.  He was well-published, and this is just one of his many sermons.

Of the four copies extant, 3 are directly attributed to Ephraem, and one is attributed to another person, thus causing all four copies to be generally attributed to "pseudo-Ephraem," and casting doubt on its veracity or authorship.  It is interesting, however, that none of the copies vary in content, nor is there any real evidence for the claim that someone else authored the manuscript.

However, within the text of the sermon is the following statement:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This seems to be a relatively clear statement of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Reliance upon any of the early "church leaders" after about 390 AD for doctrinal guidance is "iffy" at best, considering that the move within the church at that point in time was toward "replacement" theology, led by Augustine.  Replacement theology posits that the church has completely and absolutely replaced Israel, and that there will be NO millennial kingdom.  The only thing left is the final judgment.

In conjunction with statements by Paul and Jesus, it would appear to me that there most assuredly is;
1. A Millennial kingdom on this earth
2. A rapture of the church
3. And this rapture occurs PRIOR to the pouring out of the wrath of God (21 judgments), which is considered to be the tribulation period.
4. This rapture will occur shortly AFTER the man of sin is revealed (how long is anybodies guess), and his revelation to the world will *most likely* be by his execution of a treaty with Israel saving them from annihilation.

There are plenty of websites giving their opinions concerning the Ephraem statement, but as of yet, no one has conclusively proved that Ephraem DID NOT make the statement, or deliver the sermon, or have it published in manuscript form.

[ARPEL]

Arpel:

Approx. 373 AD, there was published a book (one of several by the author), of which 4 copies currently exist.  The title of the books is:

On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World

and is attributed to Ephraem the Syriac, who was bishop of the Syrian church at the time.  He was well-published, and this is just one of his many sermons.

Of the four copies extant, 3 are directly attributed to Ephraem, and one is attributed to another person, thus causing all four copies to be generally attributed to "pseudo-Ephraem," and casting doubt on its veracity or authorship.  It is interesting, however, that none of the copies vary in content, nor is there any real evidence for the claim that someone else authored the manuscript.

However, within the text of the sermon is the following statement:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This seems to be a relatively clear statement of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Reliance upon any of the early "church leaders" after about 390 AD for doctrinal guidance is "iffy" at best, considering that the move within the church at that point in time was toward "replacement" theology, led by Augustine.  Replacement theology posits that the church has completely and absolutely replaced Israel, and that there will be NO millennial kingdom.  The only thing left is the final judgment.

In conjunction with statements by Paul and Jesus, it would appear to me that there most assuredly is;
1. A Millennial kingdom on this earth
2. A rapture of the church
3. And this rapture occurs PRIOR to the pouring out of the wrath of God (21 judgments), which is considered to be the tribulation period.
4. This rapture will occur shortly AFTER the man of sin is revealed (how long is anybodies guess), and his revelation to the world will *most likely* be by his execution of a treaty with Israel saving them from annihilation.

There are plenty of websites giving their opinions concerning the Ephraem statement, but as of yet, no one has conclusively proved that Ephraem DID NOT make the statement, or deliver the sermon, or have it published in manuscript form.

Hello Evangelist;

Yes I have heard of this sermon, made popular by a Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey, much publicised by Thomas Ice, there are scholars who claim that the writings were possibly, but not probably, authored by Ephream, thus the name False Ephream



According to historian writer Dave MacPherson,  Grant Jeffrey in his 1995 book, FINAL WARNING, had the "audacity to claim that Psuedo-Ephraem";

 "began with the Rapture using the word 'imminent'"

 and added in the next sentence that;

 "Ephraem used the word 'imminent'

to describe the Rapture."

This has been proven to be false..the word emminent is not used in the text by Ephream.

MacPherson goes on to say;

"It needs to be emphasized that pretrib in Pseudo-Ephream has been palmed off on unsuspecting Christians by promoters seeing rapture aspects in Pseudo-Ephream's sermon where none exist and by covering up such aspects where they do exist in his 10-section sermon! In Section 2, Pseudo-phreamE says that the only event that's "imminent" is "the advent of the wicked one" (that is, Antichrist).

Ephraim the Syrian, reportedly Pseudo-Ephream's inspiration, said the same thing (SERMO ASCETICUS, I): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear...."

This evidence alone casts a great shadow on this work, I wouldn't trust it, beyond this point.

There is a point I would like to make; as you know there are four philosophical positions in "chiliasm", the one that conflicts with historic premillennialism is the modern dispensational premillenialism, known today as pre tribulationalism, which is the one I have brought up on this thread.

Reformists today, confuse the modern one (dispensationalism) with the historic teaching, which the early church held to.


Historic Premillennialism, seems to have been the prevailing eschatology during the first three centuries of the Christian era, and is found in the works of Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus.

What further clouds the historic is the seeds of amillenialism which were planted by Augustine in the fourth century the result is that the present day,  Roman Catholic Chruch is Ammilennial.

The modern or dispensational premillennialists, teach that the early church taught dispensationalism as held in its present form, when in fact there was no such teaching,

The father of modern dispensationalism (John Darby) in its present form claimed to have been inspired with this new doctrine by god himself; and this is what made his prophecy diferent from all other millenniarists.

Where am I wrong?

God Bless,

[nChrist]

Arpel Said:

Where am I wrong?

Hello Arpel,

I think that you are focused on man's labels, tags, commentaries, etc. All of that appears to have you pretty confused. Forget about all of that stuff for awhile and study the Bible.

I have no desire to argue with you, but I will be happy to suggest some portions of Scripture for you to begin your study. However, nearly all of the applicable Scriptures are already detailed in several existing threads on the forum.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 107:8-9 NASB  Let them give thanks to the LORD for His lovingkindness, And for His wonders to the sons of men! For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.

[ARPEL]

Arpel Said:

Where am I wrong?

Hello Arpel,

I think that you are focused on man's labels, tags, commentaries, etc. All of that appears to have you pretty confused. Forget about all of that stuff for awhile and study the Bible.

I have no desire to argue with you, but I will be happy to suggest some portions of Scripture for you to begin your study. However, nearly all of the applicable Scriptures are already detailed in several existing threads on the forum.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 107:8-9 NASB  Let them give thanks to the LORD for His lovingkindness, And for His wonders to the sons of men! For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.

Hello blackeyepeas,

You seem awful sensitive for a person who has studied the bible fifty years.

I have asked you these questions precisely because the Dispensational Pre-Millennial position which you ascribe to is a man made doctrine having its origins in the last two centuries, primarily in this country, Reba hit the nail on the head when she brought the name "Dr." C. I. Scofield up; he was the principle promoter of this new doctrine when he published his
commentary in the 1890's, followed by Moody, and then the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary.

My questions were not intended to put you on the defensive, but I can see you have no desire to consider what the early church fathers taught or where they stood.

This is a normal response from someone who feels they have arrived. and have no need to see if what doctrines they have embraced all these years are founded on bedrock teaching of scripture.

You say they do, and from your prespective this matter is immutably taught in scripture, however church history has something else to say concerning this matter.

If you do not care to discuss this, its ok with me;  I would ask you to at least consider the following;

From someone who has researched the historical origins of this new philosophical teaching known at Dispensational Pre Millennialism, and the record indicates it is not the same as Historic Pre Millennialism this is a fact confirmed by history scholars.

You may say, this isn't true as you have,  clearly stated however history has speaks louder then the opinions of men;  we should well head what church fathers taught.

Do you at least agree with this statement?

Modern day dispensationalist would have us believe
that dispensationalism was taught by the early church, not so.

The Millennialism or millennial is derived from the Latin word "chilioi" interpreted "a thousand in Rev 20:1-7, the word is used six times in these verses.

These are four doctrinial (philosophical) positions on Millennialism;

1. Historic Pre Millenialism
2. Dispemsational Pre Millenialism
3. Post Millennailism
4. A Millennialism

Dispensational PreMillenialsim is not the same as Historic Pre Millenialism, and anyone that claims it is would be hard pressed to prove it, some have twisting the historical record, but in the end the truth emerges.

The last point I will make is that Dispensationalism is the newest doctrinal position of them all.

For those of you who have arrived, you may not have any interest in knowing anything about the doctrine you rest on, however there are those like the bereans who ........." received the word with all readiness of mind,and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
                                                               Acts 17:11
Dispensationalism is taught through doctrines, it is up to Christians to

search the scriptures to determine if those things they hear are so

and, sometimes this includes searching the churches historical record.

Do you disagree with this blackeyepeas?

God Bless

ARPEL

[Allinall]

Personally, I'm pre-trib.    "Blink of an eye" and the lie that everyone will believe aiding that thought heavily, along with many other reasons I'd rather not argue.  But, what I'm so pleased about is that regardless the method, one day I will be with my Jesus.