What Saves Us

[brotherjim]

Dear Christian,

What I am about to share may at first sound like some "works gospel" and me of some cult. Neither is true, and anyone would do well to read through this post to the end and even afterwards take it all to God in prayer before reaching any personal conclusion.

Nearly all of you who have experienced the New Birth, if not all, likely did so upon hearing or reading some type of Gospel message, of how people need to be born-again to have a relationship with God. But it was an incomplete message.

In Truth, we are not eternally saved by the New Birth alone. Let's view John 3:

"'Verily, verily, I[, Jesus,] say unto you, except a man be born-again, he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.'" (Verse 3)

"'Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO the Kingdom of God.'" (Verse 5)

Now, tradition teaches us that verse 5 is a mere amplification, a further explanation, of verse 3. It is not. They are two separate events.

We need FIRST to be born-again so that we can "SEE" God's Kingdom, because the true things of God "are [only] spiritually discerned" (1Cor.2:14).

But "see[ing]" the Kingdom of God is only the first step of Grace. And seeing is not the same as being a part of eternally.

The NEXT step of Grace needed for us to be saved, is for us to "ENTER INTO" the Kingdom. This is done through the addition of "water," that water being how we are "sanctif[ied] and cleanse[d] . . . with the washing of water by the Word" (Eph. 5:26).

". . . according to His Mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5b

But in order for us to have that Holy Word to cleanse and sanctify and regenerate us, we must hear it through our spiritual ears. And in order to hear it and believe, it must be apostolically preached and anointed by God (and anointed in both the speaker and in the listener).

The apostolic word we must spiritually hear for us to "enter into the Kingdom of God" is thus:

We can know we are eternally saved when we walk in God's Love, in the Love of the Father perfected in our hearts (1Jn. 2:5; 4:12).

Now while the Father commanded through Jesus that we must walk in unconditional, perfect Love towards both God Himself and every human being, even all our enemies, so it is therefore a Law of God, we know that no man has ever been able to keep God's Law. So we who were first born-again must be enabled to keep the Law of Love some way other than through any work of our flesh. That Way is Grace.

We who truly are are saved by Grace, not only because Grace bought for us the opportunity to be born-again but because it also made available the ability for those so reborn to walk completely and perfectly in God's Love, to do so by Grace, by God's Spirit of Grace.

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal. 3:3

First someone should notice that there's both something to be "begun in" AND another to be "made perfect by."

God's Love is the main Grace purchased for us by Jesus' Blood that leads us to perfection. This Love is not done by us. It's not possible for human flesh to Love God and all people perfectly at all times.

"It is the Spirit that gives Life; the flesh profits nothing: . . ." John 6:63a

God's perfect Love is done by God through us; it is not we who Love, but Grace in us that Loves through us. We're its conduit.

". . . Love is the fulfilling of the Law." Romans 13:10b

"For all the Law is fulfilled in one Word, in this; 'You shall Love. . . .'" Gal. 5:14a

So we can see that although Jesus "blott[ed] out" the Law for the Christian, He didn't do so in the sense of erasing it, but He "took it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross; . . ." (Col.2:12.) The Laws of God are hanging from the Cross, hanging from Grace. And He was justified in doing so because the Love He made available, when in operation, obeys the Laws of God in and of Itself.

So how do we know that the Laws of Love are those specific Words of God which is that Water we need to be sanctified, washed, cleansed, regenerated and renewed with, and which therefore yields eternal salvation?

 "And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love." 1 John 4:16-18

(The words in brackets added to the above were necessary because the errors of tradition have trained the Christian mind to misunderstand and misuse this passage. Just recall how the "perfect love casts out fear" phrase is thrown around by Christians and used in any sense but the one for which it was intended.)

But of course, we can also obtain a false sense of security to assist us in denying the possibility that we will receive something far less on Judgment Day than what Christians are usually too casually expecting. This erroneous hope is not based upon God's Faith and the Word, but upon our own faith of the flesh and mind, and our own interpretation of scriptures (e.g. thinking we are saved solely by being born-again).

If we will truly repent of any self-righteous works of our flesh in trying to Love God's Way, and commit ourselves unto obedience of His Laws of Love by letting HIM work It through us as we get out of Its Way (which means we also let God remove from our hearts and lives those unclean elements still hiding within us that are enemies to His Love), then we are candidates for true, "ETERNAL salvation":

"And being made perfect, He[, Jesus,] became the Author of ETERNAL salvation unto all THEM THAT OBEY HIM."

How do we "obey Him"? We Love as He has commanded us.

"A new commandment I give unto you, that you Love one another; as I have Loved you, that you also Love one another." John 13:34

But, sadly, those who read this and who have experienced the New Birth have already been "beguiled" by a less than perfect Gospel message (2Cor.11). It will be a difficult thing for such to admit the possibility that they may no longer remain in the state of Grace once experienced when they were born-again - actually an impossible thing to realize and admit apart from the miraculous Grace of God needed to reveal it.

Tradition has embedded into the thinking of the evangelical and charismatic Christian that the New Birth was an end in itself, and not rather a means to some end, that end being more Grace leading to regeneration leading to salvation. (And if once truly born-again, the Christian can easily be presently living based upon the MEMORY of what once really happened, and not the needed-fresh-daily reality of His "Spirit Itself bearing witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" [Rom.8:16].)

Tradition, and religious cults composed of self-righteous workers of self-righteous works, have further hardened the Christian's heart against the idea that there are any works whatsoever connected with salvation, even including any necessary further works of regeneration done by the Spirit.

But with the above full proclamation in mind, read again your New Testament, praying that the Heavenly Father opens your spiritual understanding to whatever is Truth, thereby using the Holy Bible and His Spirit to either confirm or deny what is claimed here as the only Way to spend eternity with Jesus in the soon-coming new Heaven.

This perfect Love of the Father can be received just as instantly and supernaturally and completely as is the New Birth. For those so committing themselves in mind to the Law of God (Romans 7), to obey His commandments to Love as Grace enables them, they will be allowed by the Lord to face situations where God's Love is needed. The Christian will then choose to either harden their heart, or hopefully instead exercise the measure of Love already given them in the New Birth, and when found not enough (or non-existent) then fall in a heap of failure and nothingness and inability at the foot of the Cross, reaching out by Faith for the fullness of God's perfect Love just as was once similarly done for the New Birth.

God is not a hypocrite: He would never command us to do something that He did not also make available the additional Graces needed for us to obey. Those Graces are usually given first as Love, then Joy or Peace or Meekness or whatever other Fruit of the Spirit is next needed in all its Power of fullness, in order that we might do the works of God and the works of Christ, and "overcome" as Jesus also overcame.

"To him that overcomes I[, Jesus,] will give to eat of the Tree of Life. . . ."

". . . therefore choose Life, . . ."

Copyright © 2003 by brother jim - Box 124, Allentown, PA, 18105-0124, USA - brotherjim@mail.com - may be shared if done so without charge and if this notice is included.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

We already know that Salvation is by faith, not of works, and an undeserved, unearned GIFT by the Grace of God. We should easily find in the Scriptures that man's ONLY perfection and righteousness is imputed to God's children ONLY through the BLOOD OF JESUS. The same would be true of a PERFECTED LOVE the Scriptures refer to.

Yes, God's children can and should strive for perfected love and living without sin. However, the ONLY PERFECTION seen will be in the BLOOD OF JESUS, imputed to our account. Apart from the BLOOD OF JESUS, all of God's children would be bankrupt in their perfection and righteousness accounts. This is the beauty and majesty of the Gospel of God's Grace. When God looks at HIS children, he sees JESUS, because we are IN HIM and HE is in us. JESUS is our ONLY PERFECTION, RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND PERFECTED LOVE.

In Christ.

[brotherjim]

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

We already know that Salvation is by faith, not of works, and an undeserved, unearned GIFT by the Grace of God. We should easily find in the Scriptures that man's ONLY perfection and righteousness is imputed to God's children ONLY through the BLOOD OF JESUS. The same would be true of a PERFECTED LOVE the Scriptures refer to.

Yes, God's children can and should strive for perfected love and living without sin. However, the ONLY PERFECTION seen will be in the BLOOD OF JESUS, imputed to our account. Apart from the BLOOD OF JESUS, all of God's children would be bankrupt in their perfection and righteousness accounts. This is the beauty and majesty of the Gospel of God's Grace. When God looks at HIS children, he sees JESUS, because we are IN HIM and HE is in us. JESUS is our ONLY PERFECTION, RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND PERFECTED LOVE.

In Christ.

Dear BEP,

I understand what you are saying.

And truly, you bring several Truths into your argument.

The problem lies within the [alleged by me] fact that you have combined them with traditions of men and presumtions and conjectures.

Truly, ALL Grace has been made available only because of the sacrifice of Christ's pricless shed Blood.

But the thread was not about that.

The thread is about what must exist within us in order that we be assurred of eternal salvation on the Day of Judgment, to with what the Word clearly says:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love." 1 John 4:16-18

In His Love for you, bro. jim

(See also how Jesus directly answered those who came to Him asking the requirements of eternal Life - of which Nicodemus was not one.)

[nChrist]

The problem lies within the [alleged by me] fact that you have combined them with traditions of men and presumptions and conjectures.

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

I think that you should read my message again. I can quote dozens of Scriptures to support every word, but that should not be necessary. The subject thread is "WHAT SAVES US?" The Gospel of the Grace of God has a simple and ROCK-SOLID core of ALMIGHTY GOD'S GRACE in giving HIS SON to die on a cross for our sins. We should all know that "GRACE" means undeserved and unearned.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I said nothing about the traditions of men and made no presumptions or conjectures. Everything in my post is plain facts from the Gospel of God's Grace. I wouldn't have room to post the supporting Scripture, but the two Scriptures above should be more than enough. We don't deserve Salvation and we can't earn it, simple as that.

If you wanted to change the subject matter to something like, "Enriching the Walk of the Believer", I could accept more of what you said, excluding self-perfection. There are obviously things that a child of God could do and should do to increase fellowship with the Lord and Saviour, gain confidence in HIM, gain confidence in witnessing, seek HIS will, live a more pleasing life to HIM, and otherwise multiply your joy and peace as a believer. However, there is nothing you can do to save yourself and nothing you can add to THE BLOOD OF JESUS. If you want to talk about man, the primary topic is SUBJECTION.

In Christ.

[Brother Love]

Amen blackeyedpeas Amen

Brother Love

[brotherjim]

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted [Jesus], saying, ‘Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal Life?’ He said unto him, ‘What is written in the Law, how do you read it?’ And he answering said, ‘You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.’ And He said unto him, ‘You have answered right: this do, and you will live.’" Luke 10

But, since we also know:

". . . by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight: . . ." Romans 3;

and:

". . . the flesh profits nothing: . . ." John 6;

then there must be some way other than by the flesh whereby we are enabled to obey the commandments of Love and inherit eternal Life.

That Way is through the S(s)pirit, by the Love of the Father perfected in our heart, which is available to the born-again Christian just as instantly and miraculously and completely as is the New Birth.

"And hereby we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Word, in him [of a truth] is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

Conversely, --.

In His Love for the souls of mankind, bro. jim

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

It is important to note that GRACE is the beginning and the end of SALVATION. The Gospel of the Grace of God takes an ax to any possibility of spiritual pride by the believer. "Quickened" is a very interesting word that signifies immediate. Some would say there are contradictions in Ephesians 2:1-7, but that would not be true, rather a misunderstanding of how God sees HIS children. As an example, verse six speaks about HIS children sitting together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus as if it had already happened. "Quickened" in this context also refers to a transformation to a likeness of Christ, the rebirth. Some might read this portion of Scripture and think that children of God no longer fail in the desires of the flesh or of the mind. How could we be like Christ and stumble or fail, even once? The mystery is all explained in the Gospel of God's Grace, and there is no contradiction. Our perfection is IN CHRIST, not ourselves. We have already become MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, THE BODY OF CHRIST.  Perfected love, righteousness, and holiness ARE IN CHRIST, NOT OURSELVES. There is MUCH MORE in the ages to come for HIS children who will MOST CERTAINLY receive their inheritance.

God's children will be delivered from the very presence of sin and given a GLORIFIED BODY in the ages to come. This promise is so sure that it is considered DONE. Perfection of HIS children is a like promise. All of these promises WILL BE kept and performed by God, ALL THROUGH HIS GRACE. All promises of God are so SURE that they are DONE!

Apart from the BLOOD OF JESUS, I, me, you, and all are nothing and worthy only of destruction. God's Grace and Jesus Christ are the beginning of ETERNAL SALVATION.

[Whitehorse]

Hi, all. What I'm gathering about this, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Brother Jim is saying that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and not by works, that any man should boast.

But that does not mean works are not required. They are required, as it is written:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? James 2:14 KJV

The distinction is, the works, although required, are not the element that saves. It's like a plane trip. You have to have a ticket to get on a plane. But having the ticket does not guarantee you the trip; showing up at the airport is required. Will showing up at the airport get you a ride? of course not-only the ticket gives you the right. But if you truly have a ticket, you *will* be there. (Yes, there are things that could prevent arrival but that is where the analogy ends. )

If I'm perceiving you right, it's the truth. There are many that think believing in Christ is the end of the story, they can pretty much do as they like; they think it's all paid for. But this is not true saving faith. Two scriptures that demonstrate this are the parable of the talents [Matthew 25:14-30] and the parable of the wedding feast, which talks about the necessity of righteousness [Matthew 22:1-14].

[brotherjim]

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;); 6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus; 7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Howdy to you . . .

and thank you for finally talking to us with the scriptures and not just claiming that there are some which support your opinion.

(But I'm still about 20 or so ahead, so get to work {-_-} .

(Not that this is a competition: although it is a competition, we are all hopefully on the same team against the true adversary and enemy of our souls, amen?)

Whenever we engage to form doctrine, many things must be brought into the picture.

To begin, in regards to any specific verse, we must ask:

Who is speaking?

Who is he speaking to?

Who is he speaking about?

In other words, we cannot make the widespread atrocity so many do, and just assume that if it is in the Bible then it refers to us if we were born-again.

Next we must understand that if any given Apostle was not speaking of everybody, of whom was he?

The apostolic Gospel message that you read at the start of this thread is as it was preached by the first apostles - or so I allege.

In other words, those such as John in his epistles refer to as "children," were deemed so because they came to the Lord through his evangelizing. As such, when they first repented for the New Birth, they were already taught their failure in obeying God's commandments of Love . . .

". . . that commandment that you have heard from the beginning. . . ."

So whereas today someone might be led in a "sinner's prayer" asking forgiveness for their substance abuse or fornication or the like, the "children" of John and Paul and Peter were repenting from their failures and inabilities to Love (as well as self-righteousness and whatever other things, of course).

We can further understand this by reading 2Cor.11, and seeing how very afraid Paul was that those who he had "espoused" (KJV) might still fall for some lesser, watered down version that was preached during the first church age as well.

Not all in Paul's day considered him an apostle. Paul was only an apostle to those who God revealed him as truly such, and they therefore submitted to the apostolic Gospel message.

But there were also "ten thousand teachers of Christ Jesus" who were "not of [Paul's type of message], for had they been of us they would not have departed from us." (Para.?) These were preaching a less than perfect version of the Good News, likely similar to what is predominant in the church today.

While I suppose most Christians are today "standing on" some verse from the scriptures, allegedly by God's Faith, they have isolated that verse or those verses, and have hid from the qualifier[i/] that is always attached somewhere either before or after the scripture being stood upon. The qualifier is what gives permission for someone to rightfully use it.

As an example:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

Many think this a verse all by itself, and therefore unknowingly use it even against God's Spirit when He tries to convict them of some sin as part of the ongoing process of sanctification.

But let's consider it in at least a bit more context:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Aha! There's the added qualifier.

Sometimes, in order for someone to understand who a verse is applicable to, they must go all the way back to the start of that Book of the Bible. These Books were not a manual for all who were born-again, but letters written by Apostles to their "children."

And God, being so gracious as He is, gives us "two or three witnesses" whereby we can know what Truth of His is truly established, and will therefore often also include throughout any given Book of the Bible, additional and specific qualifiers.

Now as another example, let us look at what you have quoted from Ephesians 2. Whereas you stopped with verse 7, let's just add one more verse and see how it continues:

"For by Grace are you saved through Faith, and that [Faith, by implication] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

So we can see first:

It speaks of those "saved."

Second:

It speaks of those saved "by Faith."

So we can ask ourselves:

Who is saved?

Now you would say that the New Birth = saved, correct? But you have not provided any scripture in the Bible that says that in and of itself, whereas I have provided 1Jn2 that says very plainly who has Christ within them:

"And hereby we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Word, in him [of a truth] is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

And I have provided 1Jn4:16-18 which states very clearly who can be assured of eternal Life:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

So I would have to ask you, how does what you have quoted from Ephesians, or any other passages to which we can apply presumtion and conjecture and opinion, have pre-eminence over what is clearly stated in 1 John above? (And there are more.)

Getting back to "your" Ephesians 2:

Have "Faith" in what?

You would say, as does church tradition, that it means to have Faith in the born-again experience as by itself yielding eternal Life.

But I, on the other hand, would say that it means to have Faith in the Graces of God purchased by Jesus' Blood, which Graces generally be:
1) The Grace of the born-again experience, and;
2) The Grace of the Love of the Father perfected in our hearts, and:
3) The Grace of the Power of Jesus to enable us to endure in both the above until the end of our earthly Life - and beyond.

And the passages I quote from 1John above both give witness to these required Graces, so that I need not add conjecture or be presumptuous or add personal opinion.

See the difference?

Now I've already spent a great deal of time on this, and if I spent more I'm nearly certain I could find more qualifiers in the Book of Ephesians that you quote, and which disqualify many born-again Christians from that which it speaks of.

But why don't you find these qualifiers for yourself, and let God's Spirit guide you into His Truth?

In His Love also for born-again Okies, bro. jim

[brotherjim]

Okla. Cowboy,

P.S. (I can't enable the edit feature for some reason.)

In other words, most of the New Test. Books were letters/epistles written by the Apostles to those converts of theirs that were already walking in the Love of the Father perfected in their hearts.

But since it would be unrealistic for them to expect that all who would read or hear read their letters to their "children" had Love perfected in them - since some if not many if not most will receive this blessing as an event subsequent to the New Birth, they often included commandments such as "walk in Love" and the like. And besides that, we do still have to remain stedfast in Love unto the end, and "faint not."

(But the church by-and-large has assumed this to imply that the Apostles did not recognize any as already having this Love perfected. Tradition sees this as an option, as an realistically unattainable goal that we all as Christians should strive for. But Fruits of the Spirit cannot be gradually grown; neither is Love perfected optional, as can be clearly seen as someone reads through John's epistles and takes his words literally, at their face value.)

The Love of the Father perfected in our hearts - to repeat, is a Grace given just as instantly and completely and miraculously as is the New Birth.

bj

[brotherjim]

Hello Whitehorse,

You are close, but kindly indulge me in my additions:

Hi, all. What I'm gathering about this, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Brother Jim is saying that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and not by works, that any man should boast.

But that does not mean works are not required. They are required, as it is written:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? James 2:14 KJV

Up to this point you were right on.

In the Word, Paul - and perhaps others - were terse with their mention of "works." There are many types of works referred to in the Word, such as "works of God" and "works of the flesh."

It has therefore been left up to us, the church since, to take into account all of the scriptures, and then also apply some very basic Christian principles that are foundational to all things spiritual, and determine what the Apostles implied. (This is not to say that there are not other elements needing to be applied in order for us to form doctrine - such as investigating the original language, but the two above are main.)

So as too concise a statement, we can see elsewhere in the word how no man is justified by works, and how the flesh is of no profit in God's Kingdom, and thereby safely deduce that the works you refer to in James are works of the Spirit, the "works of God," and not works of our flesh.

The works of God have no fleshly element. They are self-contained entities and do not need anything from man and man's flesh. While the Word literally says to do them, we don't do them in the sense of conjuring up something from our flesh so as to perform them. We do them when we allow God to remove whatever is in our flesh that opposes them operating.

But the Fruits of the Spirit, godly Wisdom, any specific Christian activity, etc., are to be those that God supernaturally manifests through us, and performs by his Spirit alone. We just stay out of the Way.

As an example, if as a born-again believer I still have hiding within my heart, some unforgiveness or hatred or vengeance or even some deep scars from being hurt because maybe my love for someone was rejected, since any of these can be strong enough to exist as a heart idol, this idol must first be removed by God before Love perfected can replace it. If it were not so done, it would eventually lead us to more sin, because when god would want to manifest an act of His Love through us, we might not allow it to flow.

This is not to say we must be sinless before walking in the fullness of these Fruits such as Love, for if that were true then we would never be readied to receive them, amen? But whatever specific idol of the heart that may stand in the way of whatever dichotomous Fruit of the Spirit, must be dealt with now so that we can receive the Fruit.

The distinction is, the works, although required, are not the element that saves.

Not true.

You are stating the generally believed upon doctrine of the church, the tradition of men. This has been instilled into your thinking because this what you have heard preached, or maybe you surmised it yourself from the Word.

As painful as it is for you or anyone to hear it: that teaching is error, and is a part of the beguiling Gospel Paul warned his followers about in the Word.

Kindly read again, from 1John4:16-18:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

When the Love of the Father is instantly perfected in us, only then are we assured of eternal Life.

These works of God, works of the Spirit, works of Love are required - as difficult as that is for someone to believe, especially since we look around us in the church and can see not one person so perfected.

(But actually, although they truly are rare here in the Western world, you cannot determine by your five senses whether or not another has been perfected in Love. Even the very nature of Love - "[Love] does not vaunt itself" - precludes its recipients from boasing about it. And those few times they may have tried to share its testimony with another, has most likely resulted in persecution and hatred and despisings, so they become conditioned to keep it mostly to themselves.)

If I'm perceiving you right, it's the truth. There are many that think believing in Christ is the end of the story, they can pretty much do as they like; they think it's all paid for. But this is not true saving faith. Two scriptures that demonstrate this are the parable of the talents [Matthew 25:14-30] and the parable of the wedding feast, which talks about the necessity of righteousness [Matthew 22:1-14].

Yes, with the above exception - and it's a big hurdle for you to overcome because it is so well drummed into us, you are indeed perceiving me correctly, and yes it is the Truth for us only because god has specifically revealed it to us as being the Truth, amen? So there's then no boasting for us.

Of a Truth: the born-again experience is not an end in itself, but a means to an end, that end being for us to obey the commandments of Love (and this is only possible to be done by God Himself, which He does through the additional Grace of His Love perfected in our hearts).

May the Heavenly Father bless you with every spiritual blessing that He has in store for you in the Heavenlies; including your being delivered from any enemies to Love that may still hide in your heart, known or unknown to you, and then replace that void with His Love completly perfected; in the Name of Christ Jesus, Name above all names, Lord of all lords, and King of all kings and a soon-coming world without end. Amen. Amen.

In His Love for you, whitehorse, bro. jim

He will do for us when we repent of our inability to do for ourselves.

[Saved_4ever]

Sorry mr. jim but I will kindly disagree with you.  you are preaching a "works" gospel whether you think so or not.  You are telling people that Jesus blood is not enough and you greatly err.  If salvation is of anything other than God, then men can boast, it's a simple fact.

Something I think all too many people make a first mistake is trying to put God into the confines of time as "we" know it.  God creating time is not of time nor bound by it.  Hence why so many things future tense are spoken of in past tense becasue to God it's already done.  Stop placing God in the confines of "time" and you will see much change.

Why do you think that Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world?  How could he be slain if he wasn't even around "physically" yet?  Oh that's because everything was done as far as God was concerned.  

You see those of us that understand grace do things for the glory of God not ourselves.  When I see someone get saved I think "Praise God, another soul for the kingdom" not "Wow the pastor had such a good sermon that, that person got saved.  Good job pastor."  You see once you attribute anything to yourself you begin to boast, just look at all the "law keepers" on the boards.  They just think they're the cats meow and righteous unlike us "lawless sinners" as they put it.

Knowing true grace is to know everything is of God by God, end of discussion.  It doesn't mean I do nothing and wait to be moved like a puppet though it's more like that in actuality.  

Again, as usual man not being satisfied with God's perfect love for us must try and enter in religion so we can feel righteous before man.  Do yourself a favor and let God do his thing and stop trying to take control of something you have no control over.

[nChrist]

Propitiation - An act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person. As used in the Holy Bible, God is the one who is offended by the sins of man. Christ was and is the atonement and atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath for the sins of men.

Impute - To attribute, charge, reckon, ascribe, or put to account good or bad to a source or cause. "Impute" is a verb which assigns merit or blame to a specific source or cause. As used in the Holy Bible, specifically in the Gospel of God's Grace, righteousness is imputed to believers with Christ being the source and cause, not the believer.

Put the following Scriptures in context, and the Scriptures will speak for themselves. They are tiny but powerful sample. For the record, I believe strongly that Christians should strive and fight to live without sin and perform good works. "I" is a one-letter word that many times leads to sin, stands in the way of good works, and becomes vanity. "I" am NOT perfect, without sin, or righteous, but I am IN ONE WHO IS, JESUS CHRIST.

==========

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4:9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Romans 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 9:30  What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Romans 10:6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I Corinthians 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

II Corinthians 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:11  Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Hebrews 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

James 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

II Peter 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

II Peter 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I John 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I John 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

[Brother Love]

By A4C

Ephesians 2:8-10. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works least anyone should boast'.

Romans.5:8. 'God demonstrated His own love to us in this way, while we were still sinners Christ died for us.
Romans.10:9. That if you will confess with your mouth Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. Salvation is accepting by faith that Jesus Christ died for you-your sin-and took the full penalty and judgement for it, so that through His sacrifice, God can declare you righteous, and make you a child of God and a member of the Body of Christ. This is only the beginning of Gods work.

Romans 8:31&32. 'If God be for us who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him freely give us all things.'

Philippians.2:13. 'For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure.' What a lot of Christians forget is that it is God who saved us. It is God who keeps us and it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. We must also distinguish between how God sees us IN CHRIST, perfect and righteous [our standing before God] and our daily walk in all it's failings and shortcomings. [our state before God ] The first is perfect and never fails for it is based on God and His promises. The last rises and falls according to our obedience to His Word and whether we live for Christ and walk in the Spirit.

Salvation from the penalty of sin and life in Christ is a present possession secured for eternity.
 
 
 
Brother Love

[nChrist]

Knowing true grace is to know everything is of God by God, end of discussion.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

AMEN! This is THE GOOD NEWS, THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

In Christ.