Arrested in Malaysia

[Soldier4Christ]

I am continuing a conversation that started in the Prayer thread and felt it inappropriate to continue it there so I am responding here instead.

Yeah, at what cost? Go watch Saving Prvt Ryan and get back to me. Do you know how many men died at normady? Over 3,000 American boys went home in a body bag! Who is going to tell the widows and orphens that the head of their home died in an "effective" tactical manover? No, a Nuke is effective, a bum rush is just bloody. More meat for the grinder, is that it? Let's just run all of God Army through the Chain gun of Muslim legal systems till their is on one left to take the Bunker! People with the will to do true mission work are few and far between, and we don't need to be wasting them like this!

I have no need to watch such movies or read about such events in history books. I have been there myself through three wars. I have also been one that was required to inform the family of the deceased soldier, it is not an easy job. Yes, the death of even one soldier is a tragic event and should be avoided if at all possible. I still say that sometimes it is an unavoidable necessity to charge that machine gun nest.

 

A fire is a hazard, but you're never going to see a firefighter just run in, in street clothes, by himself as if we was picking up a pizza!

I have seen many stories of off duty firefighters and police officers running into a burning building without any backup and in street clothes. Many a life has been saved due to such heroic people.

Jesus and the Apostles all went into areas that were considered dangerous. Risking their very lives to spread the word of God. Even going into others religious territories and facing their wrath to do so.

There are many Christians right now in areas like China that risk their lives daily in order to serve the Lord. These people are being imprisoned and killed daily. Eventually it will be the same world wide. Are we then to hide our faith under a bushel basket or do we rush the machine gun nest with all the power of the Lord? Should we only preach in those
places where we are safe?

If the Lord sends us, should we not go?

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: ............

[Tibby]

Ah, you're a Vet. That explains a lot. Those boys knew the job was dangerous when they took it, right? Let them die needlessly for what they are fighting for, is that is?

As the son of a vat of 21 years, 3 of which as in JSOC, I am strongly appose to the needless death of a soldier. Sure, sometimes soldiers die, and it is tragic. It is, after all, their job. Besides, as you can read from my example, I did not have a strategic attack, as you are trying to yes, but a single fighter changing a machine gun. But lets say that in my example, charging a machine gun has an effect (though a missile would work fine in this day and age). Good job, but standing in front of a Mosque (sp?) gotcha6 off the people who you claim to be trying to save is NOT the way to take a stronghold.

Good agruement, but everything you listed up there is the exception, NOT the rule. Yes, some brave souls are forced to do things that are extremely dangerous at times, to save the life of another. But how common are 911 fire? How often is a firefighter in street clothing just walking by when he sees an unchecked blaze? You're listing the exception, not the rule.

[Soldier4Christ]

Yes I am a Vet. 20+ yrs myself not counting my reserve time. I work daily on the internet and locally in person with both Vets and many that are still active duty.

At least we agree here:

I am strongly appose to the needless death of a soldier

. If there is any way to prevent it then it should be done.

the exception, not the rule

Was Jesus and the Apostles going into dangerous territory and witnessing to those that opposed them the exception? Is it the exception for all those in China that risk their lives daily an exception? I am sure that it is not for them and it won't be for any of us some day. Are the many missionaries that go into these fields the exception?

As I said above "If the Lord sends us, should we not go?" no matter how dangerous it may seem to us?

[Tibby]

Yes, we have already assessed that sometimes, as Christians, we have to do dangerous thing, you don't have to prove that to me! We agreed on this from the start! What I am against is the needless[/b][/u][/shadow] waste of life and limb. Why send wave after wave of Marine at a bunker at the top of a hill with Machine Gunners in it, when a missile will do! Why enrage the people who already hate you by showing up at their House of Worship, when the local market place will do just fine.

And someone will point out: "But Tibby, they can get arrested in a market place, too!"

Yes, but they wouldn't have shown such blantant disrespect for the Muslims holy temple, and FURTHER hurt the chances of the Muslims hearing and accepting the Truth. You know how the ACLU attacks Christians all the time, so when ever we hear the name, we already know which side we will choose? Same thing with the Muslims. You disrespect a major faith, and the followers of that faith will be less likely to listen to you. If ACLU lawyers showed up at your Church this Sunday and tried to make you a liberal, would you even give them the time of day? Most people would just try to convert them, or ignore them, or even call the cops (I'd call the cops while witnessing ) I'm NOT supporting going with the statue quo, all I'm saying is that when the name of the game is to being peopel to Christ, it is counterproductive to do things that will alienate them and make them LESS likely to hear what you have to say, and LESS likely follow your irreverent example!

[M]

There are many still in the world that have not heard the Gospel.  They have had no opportunity because it is illegal in their countries for someone to tell them about Christ, give them a Bible, for them to become a Christian.  There are many countries where it is illegal to even bring a Bible into the country.  

So then, how does someone bring the gospel to those people?  And don't think that there are none there who are not interested in receiving Christ.  Standing in the street giving out Bibles where it is illegal to do so is not wise, maybe even foolish.  It is mostly not effective.  Missionaries ought to know the laws of the country before they go there.  Mostly because those seen taking the literature in public will be prosecuted as well even before they can read it and accept Christ.  

So how can these thirsty people receive the Bible?  Printed Bibles can be intercepted at borders so it is unlikely these people would be able to receive whole Bibles.  People can memorize scriptures or transmit scripture by means of satellite television, radio broadcasts and by the internet.  Also some countries do not check videos and DVDs, computer disks which can contain Bible scripture.  These can all be viewed in private homes.  This is still dangerous if someone is caught because they can still go to jail for sharing the Gospel.  

God has asked us to bring the Gospel to others.  While some of you might not like the methods some Christians use (someone mentioned the Christians wandering around book stores in United States), the message is what is important.   If we feel we have a gift to speak to others about Christ, we can at least pray for those who are doing this work.   If your attitude toward evangelism is negative, you might sit down and think about your faith and study some scriptures.  

[Shammu]

Malaysia Court Releases American Evangelists From Detention

Wednesday, May 11, 2005
By BosNewsLife News Center

KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA (BosNewsLife)-- A Malaysian court has freed two United States citizens detained for ten days for allegedly distributing Christian pamphlets to Muslims, police and American officials told reporters Tuesday, May 10.

The two men, identified as Ricky Ruperd in his 30s, and Zachry Harris, in his 20s, were reportedly arrested on April 25 at Malaysia's new administrative capital Putrajaya, 50 kilometers (31 miles) south of Kuala Lumpur.

A local court ordered them to be held for 14 days to assist in investigations, but they were released Wednesday, May 4, a police official told the French News Agency (AFP).

ACCUSATIONS "WITHDRAWN"

In addittion "all the accusations were withdrawn and the two were released," AsiaNews, a Catholic oriented news website, qouted a a spokesperson for the US Embassy as saying. It is seen as a crime by officials in predominantly-Islamic Malaysia to try to convert Muslims to other religions, church watchers and analysts say.

The detentions came amid concern among human rights groups about pressure on Malaysian Christians. The Christian community has already been suffering because of attacks against churches, "with a number of incidents of burning and bombing cited since [the] September 11, 2001" terrorist attacks against the United States, said Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW) recently.

"Other faiths [than Muslim] are increasingly discriminated against at state level following the rise of Islamism in Malaysia," added CSW in a statement monitored by BosNewsLife. "Legal restrictions exist prohibiting propagation of other faiths among the Muslim community whereas Muslim missionaries receive state support to spread Islam."

"NOT FOR MUSLIMS"

Malaysia’s Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi was qouted as saying last month that Bibles published in the Malay language were not banned but must be stamped with the words "Not for Muslims". He was reportedly responding to questions, after a minister told parliament the government did not allow editions of the Bible published in Malay to be distributed “as it could be construed as an effort to spread Christianity among Muslim-Malays.”

Evangelical Christians active in the region argue that the Bible, which they see as "Gods' Word", is for everyone, including Muslims. They claim that everyone has the right to learn about the "Good News" of the Bible that God’s only begotten son, Jesus Christ, died for the sins of all mankind, "so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

An estimated 60 percent of Malaysia's population are Muslims, while there are large ethnic-Chinese and Indian minorities who practice other religions including Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.

http://www.worthynews.com/christian-persecution/malaysia-court-releases.html

[Tibby]

There are many still in the world that have not heard the Gospel.

Whatever. THere may be a FEW small pockets of people who haven't heard, but the vast majority of the world knows all bout CHristianity. The reason they don't convert is because of people like that, who show disrespect for the laws and faith of the people they are trying to convert!

They have had no opportunity because it is illegal in their countries for someone to tell them about Christ, give them a Bible, for them to become a Christian.  There are many countries where it is illegal to even bring a Bible into the country.  

Many? A few, not Many. VOTM really overplays all of that. And even so, I'm not against illegally bringing in bibles, I'm talking about standing in front of a someone house of Worship and attacking them as they come out of Church, telling them how their faith is a lie! If I stood in front of your Church this Sunday as you came out and said "Protests are all going to Hell! Catholicism is the only way!" WOuld you listen to me? Of coruse not!  That is the EXCACT same thing those guys where going. THey aren't going to go anywhere by prison!

So then, how does someone bring the gospel to those people?  And don't think that there are none there who are not interested in receiving Christ.  Standing in the street giving out Bibles where it is illegal to do so is not wise, maybe even foolish.  It is mostly not effective.  Missionaries ought to know the laws of the country before they go there.  Mostly because those seen taking the literature in public will be prosecuted as well even before they can read it and accept Christ.

THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b][/u]

So how can these thirsty people receive the Bible?  Printed Bibles can be intercepted at borders so it is unlikely these people would be able to receive whole Bibles.  People can memorize scriptures or transmit scripture by means of satellite television, radio broadcasts and by the internet.  Also some countries do not check videos and DVDs, computer disks which can contain Bible scripture.  These can all be viewed in private homes.  This is still dangerous if someone is caught because they can still go to jail for sharing the Gospel.  

God has asked us to bring the Gospel to others.  While some of you might not like the methods some Christians use (someone mentioned the Christians wandering around book stores in United States), the message is what is important.   If we feel we have a gift to speak to others about Christ, we can at least pray for those who are doing this work.   If your attitude toward evangelism is negative, you might sit down and think about your faith and study some scriptures.

I attitude is fine. I have a problem with everyone elses attitude. Needlessly going to prison because you did something STUPID does not make you a martyr, it makes you a needless[/b][/u] casualty of war!


Thanks for the news article Dreamweaver. Glad to know nothing happened to them. They were let go. They are not martyrs, they never died, they are now just ex-cons... who are hopefully a LITTLE wiser after this!

[Soldier4Christ]

Praise God for their release.

The following is a partial list of countries where Bibles are illegal.

Saudi Arabia

Sudan

Viet Nam (minority language Bibles)

Hong Kong

Maldives

China (Bibles are manufactured in China legally but it is still against the law to have one in your possession)

Uzbekistan

Afghanistan

Morocco

Tibet

[Tibby]

Can you give me a full list?

[Soldier4Christ]

I could. It will take some time to put it together.

These countries are listed in individual reports put out by the U.S. State Department of Human Rights, Foreign travel alerts and bulletins, as well as Military Personnel Overseas Bulletins and Advisories.

It took me almost 2 hours to get what I did.

This is a good place to start if you care to research it yourself:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35335.htm

[Shammu]

Can you give me a full list?

Here is most of a list;

Saudi Arabia
Maldives
Turkmenistan
Afghanistan
Iran
North Korea
China
Morocco
Pakistan
Tunisia
Laos
Sudan
Libya
Bhutan
Yemen
Vietnam
Kuwait
Comoro Islands
Egypt
United Arab Emirates
Indonesia
Algeria
Brunei
India
Nigeria (North)
Qatar
Myanmar (Burma)
Somaliland
Uzbekistan
Somalia
Mauritania
Turkey
Colombia
Bahrain
Cuba
Azerbaijan
Oman

[Tibby]

37 countries. The State dept. recs 192 countries (And their are still more, that number just represents the US's political interests). That still leaves, as I said "a few, not Many" countries with bible bans. ANd some of the countries on Dreamweavers list are not even on Rogers website. Countries like Colombia, which, contrary to whatever source lied to you, Dreamweaver, has a VERY HIGH Christian majority!!!

[M]

Christians are being persecuted in Columbia.  Several clergy have been assassinated.  Clergy and Christian aid workers are regularly threatened.  

http://www.worldevangelical.org/persecute/persec_columbia_10apr02.html

If a Columbian priest is threatened and told not to enter a certain area controlled by terrorists, is he disrespecting the terrorists if he goes there to say mass, give last rites and baptize babies?  Or is he serving God?   If the priest was told he would be killed if he said mass, would he be foolish to disrespect a death threat?  

Not all non-Christians are enemies of Christ.  There is a great difference between someone who has not yet accepted Christ and someone who rejects Christ and hates Christ.   What I would like to know is why some governments absolutely will not allow Bibles and Christian literature into their countries?  I have heard that some countries like Arab Emirates do allow Christian services to be attended by Christians (or maybe this is underground).  

As for respect - disrespecting the sovereignty of Christ will only lead to one destination.  Any attempt, using any method,  to bring Christ to a muslim is considered disrespectful to Islam.  

As for "Protestant" Christians trying to convert "Catholic" Christians or vice versa - get over it.  All one needs to say to the "Coverter" is "thank you, I am a Christian.  Perhaps you could better use your time to tell someone else the good news."  

I thank God everyday that I am not being persecuted for loving him.

[Soldier4Christ]

While Columbia does not have an official law prohibiting Bibles or freedom of religion, the drug cartels (which actually run the govn) deem that Bibles and religious activities are detrimental to their business so they have been burning Bibles and killing Christians.

Keep in mind also that the US Dept of Human Rights report is dated Sep 2004. Many changes in gov'ns have come about since then.

[Tibby]

Yeah, yeah, I've seen the emotionally-charged video’s about pastors starting Big Rallies in Soccer Stadiums and getting capped for speaking against the mob in Latin America, too. I’m still a little skeptical, as you can tell. Pastors gets killed here in America for speaking against criminal activities, why aren’t we on the list? If you attack organized crime, you have to expect retribution, no matter who you are or where you are! A Pastor in Latin America, or a Cop in New York.

As for "Protestant" Christians trying to convert "Catholic" Christians or vice versa - get over it.  All one needs to say to the "Coverter" is "thank you, I am a Christian.  Perhaps you could better use your time to tell someone else the good news."  

Don't get so defensive, M, it was just an EXAMPLE[/i][/u]. And a good one, apparently, becasue the reply you just gave me the the very same answer a Muslim would give a Christian who stands outside a mosque trying to convert them. "Get over it, I'm already a man of the word." That would be the asnwer I would give if a Protestant stood outside my Church door trying to "convert" me. This standing outside a church approch doesn't work, as you have just proven.