Peter says, Jesus is the Stone the builders rejected.

[Petro]

And He  (Jesus) is the HEAD OF THE CORNER...........

If the real Christian Church is built upon Peter, the stone (Mat 16:; why would Peter say, Jesus is that Stone, which the builders rejected??

Note the following verses;

Acts 3
11  And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12  And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13  The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14  But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15  And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16  And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17  And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18  But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22  For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23  And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24  Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25  Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26  Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
4:1  And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
2  Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3  And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
4  Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
5  And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
6  And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
7  And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?
8  Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9  If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

And according to Paul the other Apostle, he says;

That, that Rock is Jesus, (1 Cor 10:4)(Rom9:33)

Eph 2
11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So, this sounds like the church (21........the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple, which God is building), is not a visible, building of any sort, as many claim..

And Peter, agrees all of with this..

1 Pet 2
1  Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2  As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3  If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


Pretty straightforward..............


Again Paul tells us;

1 Cor 3
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I think, that, those who teach Peter is the rock, have stumbled  both, at the stumblingstoneof Rom 9:33, and at the word, also at 1Pet 2:8.


Blessings,  

Petro

[Brother Love]

Real Good

Thanks Petro

Brother Love

[Petro]

Real Good

Thanks Petro

Brother Love

Amen, Bro,

This is Gods Word.

And we can't , better yet, should not argue with Gods Word.

Amen??

God Bless,
Petro

[Brother Love]

Real Good

Thanks Petro

Brother Love

Amen, Bro,

This is Gods Word.

And we can't , better yet, should not argue with Gods Word.

Amen??

God Bless,
Petro

Amen & Amen

Brother Love

[pnotc]

Petro-

You know its ironic (and not just a little bit hypocritical) to blast others for "not having Jesus as their final authority" (as you did Asaph on the 'Who Knocks' thread) and then turn around and post this foolishness.  Are Jesus' own words not enough for you?!  Apparently not.  However, your posts are based on a faulty premise and a misreading of scripture.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In this verse, rock is translated from the greek word petra.  From Strong's, petra means:

1) a rock, cliff or ledge
        a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
        b) a rock, a large stone
        c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness  and strength of soul

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Or, in a more easily understood translation:

He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone." (NIV)

Here, stone is translated from the Greek word lithos, which according to Strong's means:

1) a stone
       a) of small stones
       b) of building stones
       c) metaph. of Christ

Here we can plainly see your error.  Two very different words, with two very different meanings.  One refers to rock in the ground, perhaps boulders or even bedrock.  The other, to a stone that is not in the ground, a finished stone - one ready for building.  What really highlights the different meaning is the latter half of Acts 4:11 - "which is become the head of the corner."  In the NIV, that is rendered more understandably by simply calling that phrase "the capstone."  The capstone is the final piece of a building.  Metaphorically, it is the final piece of the puzzle or the crowning achievement.  Peter and Jesus are talking about two very different things.  Jesus is stating that Peter will be the foundation of the early church, upon him will rest the authority to bind and loose.  He is the human leader that will lead the new Christians.  Peter, however, is talking about the longview of God's plan.  He is telling the Jews that they have believed in God up until Jesus - and Jesus is the final piece.  He is the fulfillment of OT prophecy, and not only is He the Messiah, but He is also the Son of God.  He is the Savior of the world - and the Jews aren't seeing that.  Hence, they have rejected the stone (little stone, since Jesus was unassuming and was not the conquering general the Jews hoped for) who has become the capstone (crowned with glory, given the highest place, etc).

I won't toss out the petty insults you so frequently employ with others who disagree with you, but I do wonder about your grasp of scripture.....

[Petro]

pnotc,

You sound as if you want to argue, again;  how intelligent must one be to work in intelligence anyhow.

You do greatly error not knowing the scriptures, and it is evident why............you like the word.

One of the reasons, I don't use the NIV, as the final authority for this verse, is this very reason, that the word translated "capstone" is not the same as the "cornerstone", as you explained,

One is the final stone in a column, and the other the being the first foundation stone, set perfectly plumb and level, to support the entire structure to be built.

A Capstone does not support anything.  So it can hardly be used as representative of Gods principle foundation stone to the building He is constructing.

Eph 2     KJV
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.    

Eph 2    NIV
20  built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Cheisr Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

PS   Peter was included "on the foundation" also, he is not the finishing touch of this building at all.. and just because Catholics want him to be, it won't change this truth one IOTA..


Thanks for your opinion anyhow.

Petro

[Petro]

pnotc,

I had to get my Greek-English Interlinear, and with reagrd to Acts 4:11

it reads as follows;

"cornerstone"  not "capstone", at all.

The NIV in the margin, says or, cornerstone

The same word, in the NIV, at 1 Pet 2:6, is translated;

conerstone

I wouldn't put alot of stock in the NIV

capstone translation for cornerstone

It simply is a bad translation by the Anglican Translators Westcott and Hort, who leaned towards Mariology.  The JW's put alot stock on this work, it has many translation errors.

I use it as reference source only, know..



Petro

[pnotc]

Petro-

I agree that the NIV is not the most reliable translation.  Had I more time, I would have searched other translations for my post.  You raise a good point, that my analogy was not correct.  However, you are still mixing your metaphors, as your own posts rightly show.  

Your argument focused on "rocks" and "stones."  I showed you that the words are different, and as such, do not mean the same thing in the verses that you initially referenced.  You simply supported my argument even further.  Whether the cornerstone or the capstone, that reference is still vastly different from Jesus' statement about Peter and the church.  That is not my opinion; it is clear fact.  Jesus, in Acts, is a finished stone, be it the first one of a building or the last.  Peter, per Christ's own statement, is a rock, a boulder - bedrock.  You may seek to reject Christ's words on the matter based on your own obvious bias against Catholicism which has abused that verse to support papal dogma.  I, however, do not confuse the two.  Jesus can build his church upon Peter, the Rock, without that implying anything about how the RCC later twisted that verse to its own ends.  

However, for one who puts so much emphasis on scripture, I'm very surprised that you would reject Jesus' own words, as if He needed your correction.  You may not like that Jesus built his church upon Peter, but you cannot escape the fact.  The very verses you cited in Acts shows Peter's authority and role in the early church - a confirmation of Christ's statement.  So why do you reject the Bible's own testimony about Peter? Or do you believe that Jesus' statement about Peter was a redaction, or a later addition?

[Petro]

posted by pnotch as reply #4
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In this verse, rock is translated from the greek word petra. From Strong's, petra means:

1) a rock, cliff or ledge
a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
b) a rock, a large stone
c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul

I won't bother to put my words to the answer which this point which,  more than adequately describes the rock in view herein,
The Word rock is ofrten used figuretively in the Bible to speak of God and Christ.  As Rock, God is the Creator (Deut 32:18), His people's strength (Deut 32:4), His peopl's defense and refuge (Psa 31:2-3, 94:22), and His people's salvation (Deut 32:15, Psa 89:26).
In  the NT, Christ is the Rock from whom the Spirit of life flows (Jhn 4:13-14, 1 Cor 10:4), the chief cornerstone of the household of God (Eph 2:20), and of course the FOUNDATION on which the church is BUILT  (Mat 16:18).  
Ref: "Illustrated Dictionary of the Bible" Herbert Lockyer, Sr, editor, by Nelson Press
Of course if one believes, Peter is that rock on which the church is built, then the verses, which obviously refer to Jesus as the Rock, are not true, such as ; (Jhn 4:13-14,1 Cor 10:4, Eph 2:20).

What else can be said...that will put you on the straight and never path of scripture..

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Or, in a more easily understood translation:

He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone." (NIV)

Here, stone is translated from the Greek word lithos, which according to Strong's means:

1) a stone
a) of small stones
b) of building stones
c) metaph. of Christ

No need to comment on this further, the verse answers itself, the same stone, spoken of  "is become the head; #2776  kephale, kef-al-ay';  lit or figurateivelyl--head.
Jesus is not only the head/chief cornerstone; He is also the 'Head of the Church'
Eph 5
23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so.....................

So why teach something Peter never considered nor even contemplated or taught.

You arguments are weak, and lack biblical foundation. I think you argue just to hear yourself arguing....


Petro

[Petro]

posted by pnotc as reply #7
Petro-

I agree that the NIV is not the most reliable translation. Had I more time, I would have searched other translations for my post. You raise a good point, that my analogy was not correct.

Great.

Your argument focused on "rocks" and "stones." I showed you that the words are different, and as such, do not mean the same thing in the verses that you initially referenced. You simply supported my argument even further. Whether the cornerstone or the capstone, that reference is still vastly different from Jesus' statement about Peter and the church. That is not my opinion; it is clear fact. Jesus, in Acts, is a finished stone, be it the first one of a building or the last.

Well, lets look at the verse again;
Acts 4
11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

It is clear the stone the builders rejected was the foundation stone, spoken of by Paul at Eph 2:20
from the context of this verse,  it is the same one they stumble at, He is the Word, which some christians stumble at, also..

pnotc says;
 Peter, per Christ's own statement, is a rock, a boulder - bedrock.

While Peter may be, one of many foundation stones, He is not the Principle Rock/Stone.
You might consider scrutimnoizing the verse;  at verse 15, Jesus asked Peter;
 But whom say ye that I am?, Peter replied;
16  Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. , in other words Peter confessed, He was Isarel's Messiah  and the Son of the Living God!.  Then, Jesus pronounced a blessing upon Blessed art thou, Simon (Son of  Jonah): for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
The fisherman had not arrived at this (his answer) of who Jesus was; through any intellect nor natural wisdom; but because it had been supernaturally revealed to him, by God the Father
And it is here that Jesus, answers Peter, the answer of which many, have gone on to build an entire church, based on there understanding of these passage.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock(petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
He never said I will build my church on a stone but on a rock, and the rock in view is not Peter, he is not the bedrock, or rocky ledge, since he Peter was never declared to be the rock of salvation, but Jesus is that Rock. (1 Cor 10:4) according to the Apostle Paul.
And the OT, declares, God himself is the Rock of Salvation according to King David (2 Sam 22:47, 23:3, Psa 89:26, 94:22, 95:1....
The obvious answer to the question, who is the Rock in view herein, is Peter's confession, not Peter , since it is to His answer Jesus is referring to and, Peters confession that Christ is the Son of the Living God, is the "bedrock" truth on which the church is founded, according to Eph 2-20, this verse speaks of the church being built upon Jesus Christ the Chief Cornerstone, this statement that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets rfers not ot them, but the foundation laid in their teachings, concerning the Lord Jesus.
The word rock figuratively used in the OT Hebrew scriptures, symbolically never was used to refer to man, but  always refferred to GOD. And as I stated already, is revealed in 1 Cor 10:4 as Christ.
This thread, in the opening post, refers to Peters references to Christ as the PRINCIPLE Stone (Acts 4:11, 1 Pet 4: and both uses of these words, figuratively, differently, the verse which you rely on as "capstone" is not not really an issue.
You, can use your imagination to read whatever you like into, the word stone at the verse in Acts 4:11; the nfact still remains, the second portion of the verse points to the CORNER, not the cap, of a stone or corner, and it points to the foundation of a building.  


Lk 22
67  Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
68  And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
69  Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
70  Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71  And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

You may seek to reject Christ's words on the matter based on your own obvious bias against Catholicism which has abused that verse to support papal dogma. I, however, do not confuse the two. Jesus can build his church upon Peter, the Rock, without that implying anything about how the RCC later twisted that verse to its own ends.

you say;

I, however, do not confuse the two.  

Well, thats questionable.


And, it doesn't surprise me, you think so.  You seek to worship at the foundation stone of this church, perhaps even invoke his name, for intercessary prayer; unfortunately Peter had nothing to do with its, foundation.  It matters little what the RCC or Othodoxy teaches concerning this matter.

Since to deny the rock inview here, everything else, concerning the church is off the mark.

However, for one who puts so much emphasis on scripture, I'm very surprised that you would reject Jesus' own words, as if He needed your correction. You may not like that Jesus built his church upon Peter, but you cannot escape the fact. The very verses you cited in Acts shows Peter's authority and role in the early church - a confirmation of Christ's statement. So why do you reject the Bible's own testimony about Peter? Or do you believe that Jesus' statement about Peter was a redaction, or a later addition?

Wrong, Jesus knew what He was talking about, and so do we.

Your view taken out of context, make the 'rock' on which the church is built as sand.

And it is debateable because, Peter,  never claimed pre eminence over the other Apostles, and they surely did not recognizes him, as  he lording over them, but equals to him, He never even sat as presiding Apostle at the first council at Jerusalm, James did.  The myth, Roman CatholicISM began with his popeship, it exactly that a myth..

Blessings,
Petro

[pnotc]

"I won't bother to put my words to the answer which this point which,  more than adequately describes the rock in view herein,"

What?  

"The Word rock is ofrten used figuretively in the Bible to speak of God and Christ."

Yes, it is.  But it does not always refer specifically to God, and there is no reason to think it either means a physical stone or references God only.  There is the distinct possibility that it refers to something else.  For example, in Deut 32:31, 37 - it refers to false gods.  The frequent meaning is not the only meaning.

"In  the NT, Christ is the Rock from whom the Spirit of life flows (Jhn 4:13-14, 1 Cor 10:4), the chief cornerstone of the household of God (Eph 2:20), and of course the FOUNDATION on which the church is BUILT  (Mat 16:18)."

First, John 4:13-14 speaks of living water, not the Spirit.  1 Cor 10:4 does indeed identify Christ as the Rock that is the basis of salvation.  However, you are using Ephesians 2:20 as a proof-text, and you should have been more careful as to its context.  Starting at verse 19:  

19   So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20   having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21   in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22   in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Taken in context, you can see that your interpretation is somewhat skewed.

"Ref: "Illustrated Dictionary of the Bible" Herbert Lockyer, Sr, editor, by Nelson Press"

I thought you had no need of commentaries?  

"Of course if one believes, Peter is that rock on which the church is built, then the verses, which obviously refer to Jesus as the Rock, are not true, such as ; (Jhn 4:13-14,1 Cor 10:4, Eph 2:20)."

You are incorrect.  You assume a false dichotomy because you are so intent on discrediting Peter that you lump all the metaphors together.  They are different!  The verses you cite from John and 1 Corinthians refer to salvation, not to the upbuilding of the Church.  Christ used Peter to start His Church after his departure.  Why is that so hard for you to accept?  

"So why teach something Peter never considered nor even contemplated or taught."

This begs proving.  Got anything to support your unsubstantiated claim?  There is also the fact that a sign of a true apostle of the Lord is humility.  It is why John never positively identifies himself in his writings - he always speaks of himself in the third person.  Paul does not boast about his visions of heaven - he speaks about it in the third person, as well.  Why should we expect Peter would boast about such authority in his writings when other apostles did not?

"It is clear the stone the builders rejected was the foundation stone, spoken of by Paul at Eph 2:20
from the context of this verse,  it is the same one they stumble at, He is the Word, which some christians stumble at, also.."

Actually, from Ephesians 2:19-22, it is clear that Christ is the corner-stone, but not the foundation.  The foundation is the apostles and the prophets, who were indwelt by the Spirit and preached the Word.  Their work - showing the path of repentance, calling people back to the Lord - laid the foundation that the church is being built upon in Christ.  The corner stone is not the foundation.  It is the first stone laid upon the foundation, from which the building takes shape - verse 21.  

"While Peter may be, one of many foundation stones, He is not the Principle Rock/Stone."

I never said he was.  I simply take Christ at His word, that He built His Church upon Peter.

"The fisherman had not arrived at this (his answer) of who Jesus was; through any intellect nor natural wisdom; but because it had been supernaturally revealed to him, by God the Father"

What's your point?  No one has disputed this.  But, you raise an interesting issue - it was revealed to Peter alone, does this not imply some degree of special favor from the Lord?

"And it is here that Jesus, answers Peter, the answer of which many, have gone on to build an entire church, based on there understanding of these passage."

And this is why you cannot accept this verse as it stands - you cannot accept the Roman Catholic papal dogmas (and neither can I, for that matter) and so you twist the verse to mean something else.  

"He never said I will build my church on a stone but on a rock, and the rock in view is not Peter, he is not the bedrock, or rocky ledge, since he Peter was never declared to be the rock of salvation, but Jesus is that Rock. (1 Cor 10:4) according to the Apostle Paul."

I agree.  Peter is not the Rock of Salvation.  But he is the person upon whom Christ built His Church.  They are two different things, after all.  Do not the similarity of terms confuse you.

"The obvious answer to the question, who is the Rock in view herein, is Peter's confession, not Peter"

Really?  They why does verse 19 have Jesus telling Peter He will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven to him?  The "to you" is singular - it does not reference all of the apostles or the Church as a whole, it refers specifically to Peter.  If Peter is so insignificant, why is he being given the keys?

"this statement that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets rfers not ot them, but the foundation laid in their teachings, concerning the Lord Jesus."

I agree.  But they taught with more than just speaking or with words - they taught with their lives, with their own life's blood.  They are inextricably apart of that foundation, else the verse would say "the foundation of their teaching."  They are apart of that foundation, just as Peter is part of the foundation of the Church.  

"I, however, do not confuse the two.  
--Well, thats questionable."

Really?  How so?

"And it is debateable because, Peter,  never claimed pre eminence over the other Apostles, and they surely did not recognizes him, as  he lording over them, but equals to him, He never even sat as presiding Apostle at the first council at Jerusalm, James did."

Indeed, Peter never did claim it - but who was the apostle that followed Christ after he was arrested?  Who was the apostle that started preaching first after Jesus ascended into heaven?  Who was the apostle that Christ revealed the abolition of the Old Testament dietary laws?  Who was the apostle that Paul argued with in Galatians?  He may not have held formal authority, but it is clear he was a prominent figure in the early church.  Your history is once again found wanting.

[Petro]

posted by pnotc
First, John 4:13-14 speaks of living water, not the Spirit. 1 Cor 10:4 does indeed identify Christ as the Rock that is the basis of salvation.

AGAIN,You have missed the point,  Jesus is revealed as that "Rock" which not only led the nation of Israel in the desert those forty years, but gave them the water which was necessary for life;
1 Cor 10                                                                                                                                              4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  (See- Ex 17:5-6)  
The Samaritan woman at the well,  knew what He was saying, you obviously don't ..
We believe in this Rock and have come to Him, as untoa living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
You really, should listen and study carefully the  information that is given you.. Before posting nonsense..
So then, Jhn 4, here is speaking of a literal Rock on whom the Lord stood on, which produced Water for the people after Moses struck it with His staff; this Rock is speaking of Jesus, the Rock..on whom He is building His church ..and we are as; lively stones, built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
This is why we do not need to be members of an orthodox church, and bow before priests, who offer up spiritual sacrifices at their earthly alters..

However, you are using Ephesians 2:20 as a proof-text, and you should have been more careful as to its context. Starting at verse 19:

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Taken in context, you can see that your interpretation is somewhat skewed.

"Ref: "Illustrated Dictionary of the Bible" Herbert Lockyer, Sr, editor, by Nelson Press"

I thought you had no need of commentaries?

Whats your point??  I posted the source for your sake..not mine, I didn't even add any of my words to it.
Except to poinbt that to you..

"Of course if one believes, Peter is that rock on which the church is built, then the verses, which obviously refer to Jesus as the Rock, are not true, such as ; (Jhn 4:13-14,1 Cor 10:4, Eph 2:20)."

If you deny this, then I can see, why you are out in left field, seeking the truth in orthodoxy, next you will wonder over to buddhISM, this is becoming very popular among the seekers..in this country nowadays.

And of course, You are incorrect. You assume a false dichotomy because you are so intent on discrediting Peter

Not so, it is the Roman Catholic church which is discredited when the truth of the scriptures is exposed to anyone tht cares to here it, this includes the Orhthodox church.
 

They are different! The verses you cite from John and 1 Corinthians refer to salvation, not to the upbuilding of the Church. Christ used Peter to start His Church after his departure. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Oh.......?? According to the Bible, He started His own church and, adds to it daily  such as should be saved.(Acts 2:47)  This is why it is referred to as the church of the living God, or First Born in the Bible, and not the Roman Catholic church, or any other name for that matter.

Actually, from Ephesians 2:19-22, it is clear that Christ is the corner-stone, but not the foundation.
The foundation is the apostles and the prophets, who were indwelt by the Spirit and preached the Word. Their work - showing the path of repentance, calling people back to the Lord - laid the foundation that the church is being built upon in Christ. The corner stone is not the foundation. It is the first stone laid upon the foundation, from which the building takes shape - verse 21.

You don't know what you are talking about.
One must have a little knowledge of construction to understand, or grasp what is being taught herein, actually even an ignorant person, can get the idea, that a building, any building begins with, the laying of a foundation; and a foundation may have more than one cornerstone, depending on what the shape of the building to be constructed on it will have, in this case, Jesus is referred to as the chief corner or principle corner; this means, concerning the church He was the first ROCK of the building which was to be constructed, to be placed, and it (the principle Rock) dictates the position and positioning of every other stone.
Now, if there are any contractors in our midst, they may be able to add to, what I will say;   The foundation of this building is set on a solid footing, preferably bedrock and this is that referernce to the Rock,  of Mat 16:18, which refers to Jesus (not Peter).
At Eph 2:20, it is clear,  we the saints are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets;  well,............ ole buddy,.................. the foundation of these is Jesus and His finished works, He is not only the bedrock foundation, but the chief corner, because the corner in those days was always formed (cut) out the bedrock,  (this is not to say it was cut and removed from the bedrock), but that it was shaped from the bedrock and it, therefore remained a part of the bedrock.
So that the the chief corner, was not only the principle corner, but it was (the chief corner) because it was a part of the bedrock, which was the foundation to the foundation of the structure to be built.
Pay attention now and you might grasp this principle, which Jesus taught at;
Jhn 6
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock:

"While Peter may be, one of many foundation stones, He is not the Principle Rock/Stone."

I never said he was. I simply take Christ at His word, that He built His Church upon Peter.

Unfortunately for you, Jesus does not say this at all..  Men teach this, as thou they are taught by God.

"The fisherman had not arrived at this (his answer) of who Jesus was; through any intellect nor natural wisdom; but because it had been supernaturally revealed to him, by God the Father"

What's your point? No one has disputed this. But, you raise an interesting issue - it was revealed to Peter alone, does this not imply some degree of special favor from the Lord?

The facts is , this truth is revealed to all He choses to reveal it to, it obviously hasn't been revealed to you..otherwise you wouldn't deny it.

"And it is here that Jesus, answers Peter, the answer of which many, have gone on to build an entire church, based on there understanding of these passage."

And this is why you cannot accept this verse as it stands - you cannot accept the Roman Catholic papal dogmas (and neither can I, for that matter) and so you twist the verse to mean something else.

More pooop...from you.
Peter (was still in ublief) didn't even believe the confession, he had just made to Jesus at Mat 16:16, (by the way, at this very verse, if you give it some thought, one can see clearly (you might NOT be able to see it, but I am spekaing to those that might) that Peter, who had not received the Holy Spirit yet, had been sanctified by the Spirit, and had been enlightened thru the Spirit by the Father himself as to whom Jesus was, and yet he (Peter) was still in unbelief, concerning the question you have about Heb 6:4-6, certainly by this time he had been a partaker of the Holy Spirit for 2 years. He and the others didn't come to saving faith until after Jesus's death and resurrection..
Your attention is invited to Mat 16:21-23 (a mere 3 verses later), Peter your rock on whom your church is built, against whom the gates of hell shall not prevail,  already had fallen pray to the gates of hell, the Lord rebuked him, with these words;  
 Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.; and remember he who said; Lord I will never deny you, denied Him three times before the cock crowd, on the night of His betrayal.
Sorry Pal, but Peter is not that rock, Jesus IS..

"He never said I will build my church on a stone but on a rock, and the rock in view is not Peter, he is not the bedrock, or rocky ledge, since he Peter was never declared to be the rock of salvation, but Jesus is that Rock. (1 Cor 10:4) according to the Apostle Paul."

I agree. Peter is not the Rock of Salvation.

You agree?, Is it because My Father in heaven, has revealed this to you, or is it because you have conjured this answer up??

[Petro]

posted by pnotc
 But he is the person upon whom Christ built His Church. They are two different things, after all. Do not the similarity of terms confuse you.

I am not easily confused...about this; let everyman be a liar but let God be true.
His word is truth.

"The obvious answer to the question, who is the Rock in view herein, is Peter's confession, not Peter"

Really? They why does verse 19 have Jesus telling Peter He will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven to him? The "to you" is singular - it does not reference all of the apostles or the Church as a whole, it refers specifically to Peter. If Peter is so insignificant, why is he being given the keys?

Does this question confuse you??

"this statement that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets rfers not ot them, but the foundation laid in their teachings, concerning the Lord Jesus."

I agree. But they taught with more than just speaking or with words - they taught with their lives, with their own life's blood. They are inextricably apart of that foundation, else the verse would say "the foundation of their teaching." They are apart of that foundation, just as Peter is part of the foundation of the Church.

Are you confessing here, that Peter is a part of the foundation, not the foundational ROCK ??

"And it is debateable because, Peter, never claimed pre eminence over the other Apostles, and they surely did not recognizes him, as he lording over them, but equals to him, He never even sat as presiding Apostle at the first council at Jerusalm, James did."

Indeed, Peter never did claim it - but who was the apostle that followed Christ after he was arrested?

How well, I remember; (But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

And to Peter He said;  ......I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. you know the rest of the story (Mk 14:30, 72)

Who was the apostle that started preaching first after Jesus ascended into heaven?

What does this prove,

they all preached and ceased not to teach Jesus Christ (Acts 5:42), and Jesus didn't just entrust the preaching and teaching to Peter, what does  Mat 28:18 say, and to whom was He speaking??

Who was the apostle that Christ revealed the abolition of the Old Testament dietary laws? Who was the apostle that Paul argued with in Galatians?  I wonder sometimes how seriously the others took him?   But I still love to read about him and his zeal, He is not my favorite, but close to it..

Dietary laws??  Argued with Paul??  You need to read Galatians 2:11-21, Paul rebuked him, in front of them all.

He may not have held formal authority, but it is clear he was a prominent figure in the early church. Your history is once again found wanting

The truth of the matter is that Peter, was the most impulsive, unstable, and incontinent of the lot;
He is remembered as the one who said;
Thou shalt never wash my feet.(Jhn 13:

Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. (Mat 26:35)

Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.  30  But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. (Mat 14:28,30)

He was no more prominent that the Apostle Paul, nor John, James, Phillip, or any of the others.

You sound like one of those who argued, I am of Paulr, because he baptized me.  

I am sure knowning this Apostle,  he would echo, Pauls words to you and others; (read 1 Cor 2:12-30)

Blessings,
Petro

[John the Baptist]

JOHN, SKIP THIS THREAD!! Read Rom. 2:1-3!!
Re/Read Titus 3:9-10 VAINITY is 'an heretick'!
Thanks for reminding me Lord Rom. 8:14

Yes, I am one more here Lord, that is 'sick' of this kind of Lukwarm Spewed OUT 'love' for you, my Master'. See Rev. 3:16-17.

---John

[pnotc]

”The Samaritan woman at the well,  knew what He was saying, you obviously don't ..”

No, I understand it. It is you who failed to read my post!  I said John 4 spoke of living water, not the Spirit.  You said “In the NT, Christ is the Rock from whom the Spirit of life flows (Jhn 4:13-14)”  I said John 4 speaks of living water, not the Spirit.  They are different things.
 
”So then, Jhn 4, here is speaking of a literal Rock on whom the Lord stood on, which produced Water for the people after Moses struck it with His staff; this Rock is speaking of Jesus, the Rock..on whom He is building His church ..and we are as; lively stones, built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”

You want to break that down into a single sentence, please?  Otherwise, you make no sense.  

”This is why we do not need to be members of an orthodox church, and bow before priests, who offer up spiritual sacrifices at their earthly alters..”

If they are offering up spiritual sacrifices, what’s the problem?

“Whats your point??  I posted the source for your sake..not mine, I didn't even add any of my words to it.”

While I appreciate you taking the time to actually reference something, I have to question your motivation for doing so.  Why are you taking someone else’s word for God’s meaning?  Why are you relying on the traditions of men to bolster your claim?

“If you deny this, then I can see, why you are out in left field, seeking the truth in orthodoxy,”

Oy!  I do not deny that Christ is the Rock.  I do, however, take Him at His word and do not twist the Scripture to fit my own pride and ego.  When Christ tells Peter “upon this rock I will build my church” and then fulfills that in Acts and in history, I accept it.  I do not believe that Peter is the basis of salvation, that he is the Rock referred to in the Old Testament or that he is on equal footing with Jesus.  I do not believe that he is the foundation of the Church, but that he helped to lay it.  I do believe that it was through his strength and leadership that the early church grew so quickly. I believe that we cannot disavow him just because the Catholics misuse the verse.  I do not make your mistakes.  
“Not so, it is the Roman Catholic church which is discredited when the truth of the scriptures is exposed to anyone tht cares to here it, this includes the Orhthodox church.”

The fact that you have yet to show any convincing evidence that Christ’s statement to Peter is inaccurate actually discredits you.  You try to set it up so that yours is the only correct interpretation when it clearly is not.  Historically, it certainly isn’t.  Those in the early church certainly accepted the honor Christ conferred upon Peter. And this was well before issues of papal infallibility or authority came into the picture, so spare me your rhetoric.  

“Oh.......?? According to the Bible, He started His own church and, adds to it daily  such as should be saved.(Acts 2:47)  This is why it is referred to as the church of the living God, or First Born in the Bible, and not the Roman Catholic church, or any other name for that matter.”

And it definitely is not referred to as Calvinism or the Reformed church, is it?  I know exactly where your inability to see my points is coming from – your Calvinism.  To you, man is beyond insignificant – he is meaningless.  You chafe and squirm under the idea that God can use someone and honor them for submitting to him, as he did with Peter, because it goes against what you want so desperately to believe.  The funny thing is, for all its claims to piety, Calvinism is more ego-centric and self-serving than any free-will doctrine.  You lay all the credit on God, but then secretly congratulate yourself on your own understanding, believing you have special insight or ability.  Your own posts reveal it!  How many times have you called someone else blind, or questioned their faith, their salvation?  Doesn’t sound very humble to me.  

“You don't know what you are talking about.”

Really?  Upon what is the cornerstone placed?  Wet sand, mud, water, ungraded land?  Never.  The ground must first be prepared for the cornerstone, else its instability will throw off the rest of the building.  You’re so contentious that you must pick at every little thing, never seeing your own errors.  A cornerstone is placed upon a foundation, it is placed upon prepared ground.  It is not just thrown down, willy-nilly.  Christ is most certainly the cornerstone of the Spiritual Body, the Spiritual Tempe of the Lord.  He is most certainly the cornerstone of Salvation, the Rock upon whom we rely for unmerited grace!  And that Rock said he will build his church upon Peter.  You want to change that verse to serve your own interests, but scripture and history will not let you.  I do not know what exactly that verse means, but I take it at its word, I take Christ at His word.  He used Peter to build His church.  Fight, chafe, throw your temper tantrum – it doesn’t change a thing.
 
”At Eph 2:20, it is clear,  we the saints are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets;  well,............ ole buddy,.................. the foundation of these is Jesus and His finished works,”

Really?  What of those works which aren’t finished?  Col 1:24.

“Unfortunately for you, Jesus does not say this at all..  Men teach this, as thou they are taught by God.”

This was the arrogance I was referring to earlier.  No doubt you believe you are taught by God, but you must be correct, while the rest of us are condemned idiots?

“The facts is , this truth is revealed to all He choses to reveal it to, it obviously hasn't been revealed to you..otherwise you wouldn't deny it.”

LOL!  Those who disagree with you haven’t been enlightened by God because they disagree with you.  So your interpretation is the final word, your beliefs are the measuring stick by which all else is judged?  If your argument weren’t so circular and ridiculous, I’d almost be mad.  

“More pooop...from you.”

You never did answer my question.  Scared of a little poop, are you?

”Peter (was still in ublief) didn't even believe the confession, he had just made to Jesus at Mat 16:16,”

Prove it.  I’ve noticed you make a lot of blanket claims and assertions, and yet do not back them up.  Prove that Peter did not believe it.  Not that he later failed, not that he misunderstood Christ’s mission, but that he did not believe it.