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Author Topic: The Gospel of the Kingdom of God  (Read 9090 times)
TrevorL
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« on: November 16, 2004, 04:04:29 AM »

Matthew 9:35 (KJV): "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

Luke 8:1 (KJV): "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,"

Acts 1:3 (KJV): "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:"

Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): "5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Acts 19:8 (KJV): "And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God."

Acts 20:25 (KJV): "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more."

Acts 28:23,30,31 (KJV): "23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him."

The common element in all the above is the gospel of the Kingdom of God. An interesting development is Luke's account in Luke 8:1 where he says that Jesus was "preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God" while in Acts 8:5 he says Philip "preached Christ unto them". Luke also summarises this preaching in Acts 8:12 as "the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ". Luke uses the same language and does not draw any obvious distinction between what Philip taught in Acts 8:5,12 and what Paul taught in Acts 28:23,30-31 "Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ".

These two aspects then are a summary of the gospel preached and revealed by Jesus, and preached by Philip and by Paul. In both Acts 8 and Acts 28 Luke does not detail what Philip and Paul preached on these occasions, but is content to summarise these by these two aspects. On other occasions Luke gives more details of the speeches given by the Apostles, eg Peter in Acts 2, also Acts 3, and Paul in Acts 13. A careful assessment of each of these speeches will reveal the same two aspects of the gospel, the glad tidings of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

Briefly looking at Acts 3, Peter in vvs 12-18, 22-26 speaks of the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ, and in vvs 19-21 the things concerning the kingdom of God including the return of Jesus Christ to refresh and restore all things.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
Even these verses appear to be a summary of what Peter said, and such phrases as "the times of refreshing" and "the times of restitution of all things" could be explained and expanded by reference to that "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began". A few examples 2 Samuel 23:1-5, Psalm 8, Psalm 72, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:44. Each of these speak of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon this earth when Christ returns.

Kind regards
Trevor
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BigD
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 05:19:35 AM »

BigD responds:
Trevor:

The "kingdom of God" includes His entire creation. Therefore, when ever we see that phrase we must take it in the context of that particular passage in the Bible. God's kingdom includes everything above the earth, on the earth and under the earth.

As you have shown in you posting, Jesus came to earth preaching "the gospel of the kingdom." That is the kingdom that was promised to the nation of Israel, and will be established here upon the earth for 1,000 years.

The Church for today, the Body of Christ, is never promised a kingdom here upon the earth. We believers are destined to inherit God's kingdom, but it will be in heaven (2Cor5:1; Philipians 3:20).

God had a purpose in creating the universe. We can find that purpose in Ephesians 2-9-14.
9   Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10   That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12   That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Further, in Philippians 2:10 ,11 we read: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

So my conclusion is that God's purpose of creation is that He might be glorified by His entire creation.  Those that were promised an earthly kingdom will praise God from there place here upon the earth in His earthly kingdom, and the Body of Christ will be praising God from their position in heaven. Yes, even those that are to spend eternity "under the earth" will bow their knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

God Bless.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 05:26:16 AM by BigD » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 02:49:29 PM »

enjoying this thread Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2004, 04:11:54 AM »

Howdy BigD,

Greetings. BigD wrote:
Quote
"The "kingdom of God" includes His entire creation. Therefore, when ever we see that phrase we must take it in the context of that particular passage in the Bible. God's kingdom includes everything above the earth, on the earth and under the earth."
Yes, we need to consider each context. In some contexts the "Kingdom of God" speaks of the replacement of the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God when Christ returns.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

BigD wrote:
Quote
"Those that were promised an earthly kingdom will praise God from there place here upon the earth in His earthly kingdom, and the Body of Christ will be praising God from their position in heaven."
I do not believe that the Bible teaches we go to heaven when we die or when Christ returns. The term "Kingdom of God" is mainly used in the records of Mark and Luke, and the term "Kingdom of Heaven" is mainly used in the record of Matthew. A careful comparison of the usage of these terms reveals that these two terms are equivalent.

An example of Paul's preaching shows that both Abraham and the believer in Christ partake of the same inheritance, God's Kingdom on earth.
Galatians 3:16,26-29 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ&#8217;s, then are ye Abraham&#8217;s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Paul's comments are based upon the promise of the land to Abraham and his seed in
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Kind regards
Trevor
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2004, 06:06:10 AM »



BigD wrote:
Quote
"The "kingdom of God" includes His entire creation. Therefore, when ever we see that phrase we must take it in the context of that particular passage in the Bible. God's kingdom includes everything above the earth, on the earth and under the earth."


Trevor responded:
Quote
Yes, we need to consider each context. In some contexts the "Kingdom of God" speaks of the replacement of the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God when Christ returns.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

BigD replies:
The Daniel passages are referring to the earthly kingdom that is promised to Israel. The Church, the Body of Christ is not in view here. It is still future revelation. The Gospels primarily speak of the kingdom that is to be established upon the earth.

BigD wrote:
Quote
"Those that were promised an earthly kingdom will praise God from there place here upon the earth in His earthly kingdom, and the Body of Christ will be praising God from their position in heaven."


Trevor responded:
Quote
I do not believe that the Bible teaches we go to heaven when we die or when Christ returns. The term "Kingdom of God" is mainly used in the records of Mark and Luke, and the term "Kingdom of Heaven" is mainly used in the record of Matthew. A careful comparison of the usage of these terms reveals that these two terms are equivalent.

BigD responds:
In Galatians 2:6 we learn that the believer today is already positionally with Christ in "heavenly places."

2Corinthians 5:1 states: "For we (believers) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, etertnal in the heavens."

I do not see an earthly kingdom here.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship [NIV]) is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

In 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul is speaking to believers concerning the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The above is not the 2nd coming of Christ to earth to establish His kingdom. The Body of Christ has no place in that kingdom.

No where in Paul's Epistles do we find that the believer, in this dispensation of grace, will inherit a kingdom here upon the earth. He only speaks of our "heavenly hope."

Trevor continues:
Quote
An example of Paul's preaching shows that both Abraham and the believer in Christ partake of the same inheritance, God's Kingdom on earth.
Galatians 3:16,26-29 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ&#8217;s, then are ye Abraham&#8217;s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Paul's comments are based upon the promise of the land to Abraham and his seed in Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

BigD responds:
You are taking verse 16 completely our of its context. There is no earthly kingdom in it contents. It is the promise of the SPIRIT that is promised, not land (earthly kingdom).

Galatians 2:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14   That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15   Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

To get the proper context of verse 16, I am going to copy from the commentary of "GALATIONS, Based Upon the Greek New Testament" by Ernest R. Campbell. I am going to delete the words written in the Greek language, and () will indicate where I deleted those words.)

16 "The promises were spoken to abraham and his seed. He did not say, And to seeds, as to many, but as to one, And to your seed, which is Christ."

"Some of the promises that were given to Abraham were: (1) that a special and with specifically defined borders would be given to him (cf. Gen. 15. 18-20); (2) that his offspring would become a great nation (cf. Gen.13:16); and (3) that in him all the nations of the earth would be blessed (cf. Gen 12:1-3). These promises were specifically spoken to Abraham and his seed; and Paul emphasizes the fact that the word translated "seed" () is in the singular, and it refers to Christ. As the seed, Christ is the epitome and pinnacle of the promises made to Abraham.

Paul's main issue in this verse is to make very clear those to whom the promises were not spoken and the One to whom the promises were spoken. God did not say "to seeds" (), as "to many" (), which more literally means on the basis of many. This means that the basis or reason for giving the promises was not the many, but it was on the basis of the One ().

Paul is making a sharp distinction between Abraham's seed according to the flesh and Abraham's seed according to the promise. In making the promise God said to Abraham, "And to your seed" (), which refers to Abraham's particular seed to whom the promise was given, which seed Paul asserts is Christ. Paul's identification of Christ as the seed is very significant, for the duration of the Law was until Christ, the seed, might come, and there is no basis for extending the Law beyond this date!.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 06:08:47 AM by BigD » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2004, 06:39:23 AM »

AMEN BigD!

I give thanks that I'm not waiting for the Millennial Kingdom. I have Jesus Christ in my heart right now, and I can worship HIM any time I wish.

Thanks Brother.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2004, 08:04:12 AM »

Each of these speak of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon this earth when Christ returns.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.  
  66:23   And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from [one sabbath to another], shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD", (Isaiah 66:22,23).  
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2004, 08:23:09 AM »

BEP:
You are so right. We do not have to wait for the Millennial Kingdom to receive our blessings.  We can take comfort in Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

God Bless.
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2004, 04:06:11 AM »

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. Despite the Scriptures that you quote BigD, I still have difficulty with the concept that there will be some in the "earthly kingdom", while others will be in heaven. Repeating your statement from your original post:
BigD wrote:
Quote
"Those that were promised an earthly kingdom will praise God from there place here upon the earth in His earthly kingdom, and the Body of Christ will be praising God from their position in heaven."
BigD wrote:
Quote
"In Galatians 2:6 we learn that the believer today is already positionally with Christ in "heavenly places."
Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV): "4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
This does not directly state that when we die or when Christ returns we will be taken into Heaven. To me this is Paul's method of teaching us that we should think and act as if we were seated in the presence of God and Christ in Heaven. It does not say we are literally there, because we are still literally here. Similar encouragement and thoughts are given in:
Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV): "1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Our belief, repentance, baptism is likened to the resurrection of Christ. The above passage also talks of our need to centre our thoughts and feelings on Christ, and it also speaks of the appearance of Christ, but it does not state that after he appears that we then go to Heaven.

BigD quoted and wrote:
Quote
"2 Corinthians 5:1 states: "For we (believers) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
I do not see an earthly kingdom here.
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): "1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
This could also be explained by Colossians 3:3-4, that our "life is hid with Christ in God", and "when Christ, who is our life, shall appear", then "mortality" will "be swallowed up of life". This again speaks of Christ's second coming.

BigD quoted:
Quote
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship [NIV]) is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Looking at the next verse we have a similar teaching to Colossians 3 and 2 Corinthians 5:
Philippians 3:21 (KJV): "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

BigD quoted and wrote:
Quote
In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul is speaking to believers concerning the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
The above is not the 2nd coming of Christ to earth to establish His kingdom. The Body of Christ has no place in that kingdom.
No where in Paul's Epistles do we find that the believer, in this dispensation of grace, will inherit a kingdom here upon the earth. He only speaks of our "heavenly hope."
Again 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is similar to the previous quotations, that Christ will return and raise the dead and change their bodies into glorious immortal bodies. Briefly, I believe that the terms "the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language, and it does not use "heaven" in the sense of being directly in Heaven, in the presence of God. Again, you seem to be teaching that there are two kingdoms, the earthly kingdom and the heavenly kingdom, or "heavenly hope", the same as in your original post.

Concerning Galatians 3:16, BigD wrote:
Quote
"You are taking verse 16 completely our of its context. There is no earthly kingdom in it contents. It is the promise of the SPIRIT that is promised, not land (earthly kingdom)."
Paul in Galatians 3:16 quotes directly from the land promise in Genesis 13:14-15. You seem to read "the promise of the Spirit" as saying the promise that consists of the Spirit (kingdom). There is some possible ambiguity when the preposition "of" is used. If it said "the promise of God", we would most probably accept the promise that God gave, and this is how I read "the promise of the Spirit". I read this as the same as the promise(s) that was (were) given to Abraham by God, eg
Galatians 3:16-18,26-29 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The whole flow of this passage is the promise(s) to Abraham. Those that believe and are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. They are thus part of the body of Christ and will inherit the land for ever as promised to Abraham and Christ in Genesis 13:14-15. This will occur when Christ returns and raises the dead and gives them immortality. The last verse, v29 is clearly speaking of the body of Christ becoming heirs to the promises made to Abraham, and as your citation from the article states, these promises included the land promise of Genesis 13:14-15, further defined in Genesis 15:18-20.

Kind regards
Trevor
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2004, 04:04:36 PM »

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign   with him a thousand years.

Every saint that has died in the lord (Body of Christ) will be resurrected and reign with Christ a thousand years. More study is needed about this... thats for sure. These will also not do any animal sacrafices or keep any ordainances ...because they will be glorified and become as the angels of heaven...and rule the earth with Christ until God makes a new heaven and new earth...then we will be in eternity and eat of the tree...we have a long way to go to get to that tree...but by the grace of God we will.

This takes study because the saints who are raptured also come back with Christ to rule in this kingdom.

And one more thing, the kingdom that Christ preached is in you... it is the mystery of the Kingdom that Jesus was talking about... Christ in you the hope of glory. Then cometh the end when this unseen kingdom will be delivered up to God...but will return with Christ at his coming.

God bless Brothers and sisters
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2004, 09:26:44 AM »

TrevorL posted
Quote
Greetings again. Despite the Scriptures that you quote BigD, I still have difficulty with the concept that there will be some in the "earthly kingdom", while others will be in heaven. Repeating your statement from your original post:


BigD wrote:
 
Quote
"Those that were promised an earthly kingdom will praise God from there place here upon the earth in His earthly kingdom, and the Body of Christ will be praising God from their position in heaven."


BigD wrote:
 
Quote
"In Galatians 2:6 we learn that the believer today is already positionally with Christ in "heavenly places."


TrevorL responded:]/b]
Quote
Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV): "4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

This does not directly state that when we die or when Christ returns we will be taken into Heaven. To me this is Paul's method of teaching us that we should think and act as if we were seated in the presence of God and Christ in Heaven. It does not say we are literally there, because we are still literally here. Similar encouragement and thoughts are given in:

BigD responds:
First of all, I am not literally already in heaven because I am still alive on this earth. I did not say that I was physically there. However, once I have put my faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation, I am now made alive (quickened) and became a member of the Body of Christ, of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30), and God already sees me as seated with Christ in the heavenlies. That is my position "in Christ."


TrevorL continues:
Quote
Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV): "1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Our belief, repentance, baptism is likened to the resurrection of Christ. The above passage also talks of our need to centre our thoughts and feelings on Christ, and it also speaks of the appearance of Christ, but it does not state that after he appears that we then go to Heaven.

BigD replies:
Trevor, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am already made alive in Christ, and postionally seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Therefore, I should only be concerning myself about heavenly things and not on things on this earth. These earthly things are only temporal. My heavenly blessings are permanent. I will receive them when I am raptured to heaven.

That is what Colossians 3:1-4 is all about. It has nothing to do with repentance and baptism.

BigD quoted and wrote:
Quote
"2 Corinthians 5:1 states: "For we (believers) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

I do not see an earthly kingdom here.


Trevor responded:
Quote
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): "1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

This could also be explained by Colossians 3:3-4, that our "life is hid with Christ in God", and "when Christ, who is our life, shall appear", then "mortality" will "be swallowed up of life". This again speaks of Christ's second coming.

BigD responds:
Just as I have been "crucified with Christ" (Eph.2:20), I also been "risen with Christ." Again, this cannot be taken literally because I am still here. However, this mortal body will die
, or be raptured, and then I will meet the Lord in the air, at the rapture, and ever be with the Lord in heaven.

BigD quoted:
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Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship [NIV]) is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.


TrevorL responded:
Looking at the next verse we have a similar teaching to Colossians 3 and 2 Corinthians 5:
Philippians 3:21 (KJV): "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
Quote

BigD replies:
Nowhere in the promises to the earthly kingdom saints do we find that there bodies will be "fashioned like unto his glorious body." Yes, they will be raised from the dead and their imfirmities removed, but their appearance will not be altered much.

2Cor5 does not state anything about how our bodies will appear. However, it says that we believer will have a home "eternal in the heavens."

BigD quoted and wrote:
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In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul is speaking to believers concerning the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The above is not the 2nd coming of Christ to earth to establish His kingdom. The Body of Christ has no place in that kingdom.

No where in Paul's Epistles do we find that the believer, in this dispensation of grace, will inherit a kingdom here upon the earth. He only speaks of our "heavenly hope."


Trevor responded:
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Thessalonians 4:16-17 is similar to the previous quotations, that Christ will return and raise the dead and change their bodies into glorious immortal bodies. Briefly, I believe that the terms "the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language, and it does not use "heaven" in the sense of being directly in Heaven, in the presence of God. Again, you seem to be teaching that there are two kingdoms, the earthly kingdom and the heavenly kingdom, or "heavenly hope", the same as in your original post.

BigD responds:
"the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language of what? I understand them to be literal because of the above passages that have already been quoted that says that our home/citizenship is in heaven.

Another proof text to show that we do not inherit an earthly kingdom is found in 2Cor5:20. "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us;..."

As you know, an ambassador is one that represents his homeland in a far off country. Well, my home is heaven, and as a believer, I am representing my home government (heavenly government) in a foreign land - earth. At the rapture, I will be recalled to "ever be with the Lord."

Concerning Galatians 3:16,
Trevor, I will respond to this a little later being I have some other things to do right now, and it might get lengthy.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

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BigD
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2004, 11:17:58 AM »

Concerning Gal 3:16 BigD wrote
Quote
You are taking verse 16 completely our of its context. There is no earthly kingdom in it contents. It is the promise of the SPIRIT that is promised, not land (earthly kingdom).

TrevorL responded:
Quote
Paul in Galatians 3:16 quotes directly from the land promise in Genesis 13:14-15. You seem to read "the promise of the Spirit" as saying the promise that consists of the Spirit (kingdom). There is some possible ambiguity when the preposition "of" is used. If it said "the promise of God", we would most probably accept the promise that God gave, and this is how I read "the promise of the Spirit". I read this as the same as the promise(s) that was (were) given to Abraham by God, eg
Galatians 3:16-18,26-29 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The whole flow of this passage is the promise(s) to Abraham. Those that believe and are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. They are thus part of the body of Christ and will inherit the land for ever as promised to Abraham and Christ in Genesis 13:14-15. This will occur when Christ returns and raises the dead and gives them immortality. The last verse, v29 is clearly speaking of the body of Christ becoming heirs to the promises made to Abraham, and as your citation from the article states, these promises included the land promise of Genesis 13:14-15, further defined in Genesis 15:18-20.

BigD replies:
Nowhere in Galatians 3:16 do I see Paul quoting directly from the land promises in Genesis 13:14-15. You are somehow reading that into it, or it was omitted from my KJV of the Bible. I am not denying that Abram was not given a land promise, I am saying that the land promises are not the subject in all of Galatians 3. It has to do with the gift of the Spirit and the Law.

It appears that the covenant spoken of in Gal 3:17 is "the law." "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

Trevor, it appears that you are making members of the Body of Christ, the Church for today, spiritual Jews. WE ARE NOT SPIRITUAL JEWS.

For the Jews to inherit the kingdom here upon the earth, they had to do the deed/works of the Law by Faith. The Law will be in effect during the kingdom reign of Christ. Also, the law will have been written upon their hearts ( see Jer 31:31-34).

Today the Body of Christ is not under the Law. The body of Christ is made up of  believing "set aside" Jew and Gentiles." we are "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15, and have a heavenly hope.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. That is not in effect today in this dispensation of grace. There is no longer any distinction between the Jew and Gentile. We are all on equal footing.

Believer today are not under the Law. However, it appears that  by your beliefs, all believer today will go into a kingdom here upon the earth. That would put them back under the Law.

Back in Galatians 2:9, the 12 disciples agreed to stay with the Jewish kingdom saints. In the kingdom, when established here on earth, there will be 12 disciples sitting on 12 thrones juding the 12 tribes of Israel. In order for judges to judge, there must be laws to judge by.

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles. We are not under the Law. If we go into an earthly kingom on earth, what would Paul's position be? Just asking, but would like to know your thought on this.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2004, 04:53:04 AM »

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. You seem to suggest that Paul will be in heaven, while Peter, James and John will be on earth.

Where will Jesus be?
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): "32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Kind regards
Trevor
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2004, 06:36:12 AM »

Trevor:
You have asked a good question, but you have not answered mine. I will repeat - "If we go into an earthly kingdom on earth, what would Paul's position be?" Also, I was looking forward to more response to my last postings.

As we know, Jesus is presently in heaven sitting at the right hand of God the Father. We also know that Paul was taken up to the third heaven (2Cor12:2) and saw thing that he was unable to discribe. In 5:6 Paul says: "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:", and in vs 8 says: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord."

Paul is not looking for an earthly home.

Being Jesus is God, and God is omni-present, Is not possible for Jesus to be present with all the saints at the same time?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2004, 08:05:22 AM »

What kingdom was Paul and the church/ekklesia at Colosse translated into?

Colossians 1:13.  "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

What kingdom does John write that he is in?

 Revelation 1:9.  "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

They say they are in the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Are they members of the ekklesia, the Lord's body? Does this tell us the kingdom of Jesus Christ has been established?  Does it tell us the ekklesia, the Lord's body, and the kingdom of Christ are one and the same? Is the kingdom of Christ seperate from the kingdom of God?

ollie
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