Just a couple of questions

[droid1001]

Hello all,

I have recently been reading the New Testament.  Actually reading the bible is a new experience for me.  Someone has always read it at me and told me what it means, or simply told me what it means without even reading it.  For my part I ether accepted what they said blindly or rejected it out right with out any basis.    Some of you may no doubt be cringing the way I do when my manager at work picks up a computer book.  

--
Then the Lord said to him “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.  You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?  So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you.

But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God; it is these you ought to have practiced, without neglecting the others.”
Luke 11.39 – 11.42

He said to them, “Then do you also fail to understand?  Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?”  And he said “It is what comes out of a person that defiles.  For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly.  All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Mark 7.18 – 7.23
--

Ok, I get that.  It is not the filth you have collected on the outside that is the problem.  It is the filth you have collected on the inside that is the problem.   I can honestly say that while I have in action committed one or two of these items, in my heart I have committed all of them.  

My first question then was: How do I clean the inner cup?  But I think I found the answer to that.

--
But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, prey for those who abuse you.  If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.  Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.  Do to others as you would have them do to you.

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?  For even sinners love those who love them.  If you do good to those that do good to you, what credit is that to you?  For even sinners do the same.  If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you?  Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as mush again.  But love you enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.  Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.  Be merciful, just as your father is merciful.
LUKE 6.27-6.36
--

How do you come to the point of truly feeling that way?

If you truly feel that way how can you justify war, or even defending yourself?

I understand that Jesus died for our sins.  He bears that burden for us, so that we will come into heaven despite our failings.   But does that mean I can neglect what the lord has said?

[2nd Timothy]

Hello droid1001....welcome to CU!  

If I understand your question correctly...

How do you come to the point of truly feeling that way?

This will truely only happen after you accept Christ into your heart.    You whole outlook on life and people will change.

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Emphasis mine.   There is life changing power when the holy spirit takes up residence in your heart.   Its a regenerating process that can take time, but it will change the way you live and think about things, and also by reading the word and applying it to your life.

If you truly feel that way how can you justify war, or even defending yourself?

I don't have it right at my fingertips, but there are times when war is appropriate in Gods eyes (in the OT).   God himself will war with those on the earth that oppose Him in the end, and win.   You will note that when Christ was struck on the cheek, that He protested.....

Joh 18:22  And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
Joh 18:23  Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

Jesus did not lash out, but He did plead his case for being struck unjustly.

Hope this helps a little


Grace and Peace!

[droid1001]

Yes on the first question I think that fits.

On the second part I of the second I think you are also correct.  Though I find that hard to live with.  

I would like to Know the times that God justifies War.  I wonder if our current War fits that criteria.  How dose one know?  There are many human arguments, but are they Gods?  

By the way I was in the military for 8 years.  And I am well out of its call now.  In the First Gulf war I was trolling around the bottem of the Atlantiic.  So I do not oppose the war.  I am just wondering if I should.

Anyway thank you for your help.

[2nd Timothy]

This info is taken from carm.org, an apologetics organization.   It offers a biblical perspective of war.   I am inclined to agree with what it says.  I'm sure there are some who would not agree, but I think the best suggestion is to read some of the verses, and ask God to speak to your heart about what He really means....which sounds like what you are already doing.   Anyways, hopefully this will help one way or the other.  

*******************************************
Should a Christian go to war?


     This question has caused a lot of division in the body of Christ.  Should a Christian go to war where he might kill other people when the Bible says to "turn the other cheek" (Luke 6:28)?  Is it right to do war against others or does the Bible forbid it?
     War is a state of declared, open, and armed conflict between two or more nations.  It is sometimes undertaken in self defense as when the U.S. entered WWII as a result of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor.  Other times, however, nations unjustly go to war to take spoils from other countries.  Murder, on the other hand, is an unlawful taking of life and is always wrong.  When nations go to war, it is declared lawful by the countries going to war -- sometimes for moral reasons and other times for immoral reasons.  Therefore, and immoral war could be considered a form of murder where a moral war could be in self defense.  But not all war is wrong.
     It is difficult to determine when war would be a righteous endeavor given that leaders of nations are not Christian and could easily have ungodly reasons for going to war.  Nevertheless, war is an unfortunate reality in this world and it causes great destruction, misery, and loss of life.  It should be avoided if possible and undertaken only as a last resort.
    The Bible teaches that we have the right to self defense Exodus 22:2:  "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account." The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent, Deut. 19:10, "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and blood guiltiness be on you." Also, see "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin," (Deut. 24:16).  If we were to apply these principles to war, I would conclude that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent.  Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions.

More on war

     We can see that war is not a sin in itself since in the Old Testament God sends people into war:

"Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan opposite Jericho, saying, 51"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you cross over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 52then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images and demolish all their high places; 53and you shall take possession of the land and live in it, for I have given the land to you to possess it," (Num. 33:50-53).
    In fact, God uses war as a means of disciplining nations.

“I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord," (Amos 4:10).

     Also, the Lord is called a warrior.

“The Lord is a warrior; The Lord is His name. 4“Pharaoh’s chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea," (Exodus 15:3-4).

     From this we can easily conclude that going to war is not a sin.  That is, if it complies with the biblical instructions of self-defense and protection of the innocent.
     Furthermore, Christians are instructed to be in subjection to the governing authorities whose establishment is from God.  This establishment has the right to declare war and to punish its citizenry, even by capital punishment.

"Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil," (Rom. 13:1-4).
"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right," (1 Peter 2:13).
    Finally, notice that when some soldiers approached John the Baptist and inquired about repentance.  John did not tell them to stop being soldiers, but to do their jobs properly, honestly.

"And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages," (Luke 3:14).
     From all of this, we can see that going to war is not wrong it itself and that a Christian can go to war under the right circumstances.

[felix102]

I agree with "should a christian go to war."
Another important thing to add is:

ecclesiastes 3:8
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:

a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

For droid...you ask:
How do you come to the point of truly feeling that way?

If you truly feel that way how can you justify war, or even defending yourself?"

You can't come to truly feel that way...it is a gradual process. Loving your neighbor is one of God's greatest commandments. It is very easy to learn but very hard to do. If you ask How do you come to the point of truly feeling that way in the sense that it is very difficult then that is true.

So how do you come to the point of truly feeling that way? As you mature and become more and more like Christ. When we say "born again" we mean just that, born again as if we were a newly born infant. At this point we are very immature and still require a lot of growth. However, as we continue to live under the influence of the Holy Spirit we become more and more like Christ. The ultimate nature of God is Love. Only until we are fully like Christ will we be able to practice perfect love.

If you truly feel that way how can you justify war, or even defending yourself?
To answer this question...you have to rethink the question. Turning the cheek does not mean that. Here is an example:
A man punches me in the face for no reason. What turning the other cheek means is...I will not seek vengeance against him...however, I'm not going to just stand there and take another punch because that is physically detrimental to my health. If the person plans to take my life I plan on defending myself.

The verse is talking about love. If someone insults you, you will not insult him back. If someone takes money from you and he asks for more, give him more money. The concept is:
dont be overcome by evil by doing evil, overcome evil with good. You can't fight fire with fire. Love your enemies.

Read the second paragraph of Luke 6:27-36 very carefully. It tells you why you should do that.



Some great info:
I believe that you will continue to learn more and more by privately reading the bible. As long as you have the desire to seek the truth, the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal the truth to you. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals to us the truth of the word.

[Soldier4Christ]

I have limited time this morning so I will give you a brief statement on this.

Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This does not necessarily mean brother as in sibling nor does it mean that we are to hate him.

If you can check back with me here I will present the rest the Bible has on this.

[Bronzesnake]

Yes on the first question I think that fits.

On the second part I of the second I think you are also correct.  Though I find that hard to live with.  

I would like to Know the times that God justifies War.  I wonder if our current War fits that criteria.  How dose one know?  There are many human arguments, but are they Gods?  

By the way I was in the military for 8 years.  And I am well out of its call now.  In the First Gulf war I was trolling around the bottem of the Atlantiic.  So I do not oppose the war.  I am just wondering if I should.

Anyway thank you for your help.

 Hello my friend...

 I hope these verses help you out.

 Ecc 3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:  


 Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;  


Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;  


 Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;  


 Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;  


 Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;  


Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;  


 Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


Also...Jesus said offer the other cheek...In other words, give him a second chance...we only have two cheeks my friend. - Jesus wants us to restrain ourselves even when we are attacked. We are not supposed to fly off the handle in anger at the first sign of trouble. We should show patience.  Jesus does not expect us to allow an attacker to beat the tar out of us...we're not supposed to be bullies, but we're not expected to be wimps either. We're supposed to be restrained and fair.

 When Jesus came as a lamb, He came to be beaten, humiliated, and crucified - that was His mission - there was a purpose to His total submission in that regard. When Jesus returns it will be a totally different story. That day, Jesus will destroy His enemies. The first time, He offered the other cheek - He gave us all a second chance - when He returns He will not offer another cheek, He already did that.

 Bronzesnake

[bluelake]

Hello all,

I have recently been reading the New Testament.  Actually reading the bible is a new experience for me.  Someone has always read it at me and told me what it means, or simply told me what it means without even reading it.  For my part I ether accepted what they said blindly or rejected it out right with out any basis.    Some of you may no doubt be cringing the way I do when my manager at work picks up a computer book.  

--
Then the Lord said to him “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.  You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?  So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you.

But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God; it is these you ought to have practiced, without neglecting the others.”
Luke 11.39 – 11.42

He said to them, “Then do you also fail to understand?  Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?”  And he said “It is what comes out of a person that defiles.  For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly.  All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Mark 7.18 – 7.23
--

Ok, I get that.  It is not the filth you have collected on the outside that is the problem.  It is the filth you have collected on the inside that is the problem.   I can honestly say that while I have in action committed one or two of these items, in my heart I have committed all of them.  

My first question then was: How do I clean the inner cup?  But I think I found the answer to that.

--
But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, prey for those who abuse you.  If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.  Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.  Do to others as you would have them do to you.

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?  For even sinners love those who love them.  If you do good to those that do good to you, what credit is that to you?  For even sinners do the same.  If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you?  Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as mush again.  But love you enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.  Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.  Be merciful, just as your father is merciful.
LUKE 6.27-6.36
--

How do you come to the point of truly feeling that way?

If you truly feel that way how can you justify war, or even defending yourself?

I understand that Jesus died for our sins.  He bears that burden for us, so that we will come into heaven despite our failings.   But does that mean I can neglect what the lord has said?

Hello droid,
I don't know if you are a christian. If you are I'll give you a short answer for now. We all are called to repent of our sins. If we expect the Lord to forgive our sins, we must also forgive others. Ask In the name Of Jesus, our Savior.
Lu.6:27  they contrast kingdom values with wordly values.
verse 36 tells us "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
When I read the Bible I try to remember to ask the Holy Spirit to guide me and to give me an understanding of his Holy Word. Sometime I do forget.
Please do this, it works.  

Bless you,
bluelake