Hebrews Questions

[emtmedgrl]

Hello everyone.  A friend of mine told me that if someone was to fall away from Christ they could not come back to Christ later.  She used Hebrews Chapter 6:4-6 to prove her point.  

4   For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5   And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV

Is this correct??
Thanks for the help.  I am a fairly new Christian and I'm a little confused about the the verse above.

emtmedgrl

[carsncandy]

Great question !!
What is to "fall away" is the deeper question ?
I have thought that this pertains to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I'm sorta axious to here what others say.  

[Heidi]

That passage is in the passage in Hebrews where Paul talks about maturity in the metaphor of solid food as opposed to milk. How i interpret that through the Holy Spirit is that it is virtually UNTHINKABLE to endorse sin and deliberately go against Christ's words once we have tasted the glories of his spirit. I know it is for me. As we grow in Christ, to go back to where we were before we grew, one WOULD have to be crucifying him all over again. A good example would be remembering where i was before i was saved. Before i was saved, death meant nothing to me. But after i received the Holy Spirit, death without him, is now like a huge abyss from which I would never be able to extricate myself. That is what it would be like for me now to go back to sins I previously engaged in. I MUCH prefer the glories of the spirit that i have now to the torment of going against Christ's words. I would then have lost the peace that I have now. The remorse that one would feel would be immense, just like the remorse Judas felt once he realized he had betrayed Christ. I agree that that is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

[michael_legna]

Concerning:

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That passage is in the passage in Hebrews where Paul talks about maturity in the metaphor of solid food as opposed to milk. How i interpret that through the Holy Spirit is that it is virtually UNTHINKABLE to endorse sin and deliberately go against Christ's words once we have tasted the glories of his spirit.

Virtually unthinkable?  Doesn't it have to be completely unthinakble to rule out the possibility of losing ones salvation?  It can't be just virtually, it must be absolutely]/b] and that is not what the verse says.  So yes it is possible to lose ones salvation in such a way as to not be able to repent from the actions and regain it.

A similar verse shows this same issue is the following:

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

In it we see someone who has escaped the pollution of the world (sin), they know Chirst (which is eternal life) and had known righteousness (the only way to do that is through being infused with Christ's righteousness when saved), and yet they go back against the commandment of Christ to fulfill the law through love of God and one another, they return to wallowing in the sins of the earth.  This last state is worse than before they first escaped the pollutions of sin.  How could it be worse?  Because before they escaped they had a chance at salvation, and now they don't because they cannot crucify Jesus to themselves again.

But it may not be all that bad, though it certainly is a possibility.

It may just be that to reaccept the gift of salvation may be a lot tougher the second time aorund as you will be beset with more snares and temptations of the devil as the following parallel verses seem to indicate.

Mat 12:43  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

and

Luk 11:24  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luk 11:25  And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
Luk 11:26  Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

These seem to indicate that if one is saved and falls away that the devil will make an extra effort to keep you away from finding your way back to Christ next time.   So maybe not all cases are completely unrepentable - so the final verdict is not completely clear.  

However in the case where the sins include blasphemy of the Holy Spirit it seems that is true.

Mat 12:31  Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[Heidi]

I never knew a Christian who doubted his salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit more than you, Michael. Your religion is NOT based on faith, but fear and doubt. I feel deeply sorry for you.

[MalkyEL]

Actually, I think Micha'el has quite a balanced, and a definitely scriptural perspective.

The loss of one's salvation, is due to a *choice*, not a haphazard indictment of judgment.

Paul stated that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  True salvation is the moment of belief in Jesus, and is fully the grace of God.   To remain in salvation is not the resting on one's laurels, but rather a pursuit of God's heart and righteous living according to His Word.

These passages that indictate loss of salvation are presumed upon a choice to be lethargic about one's devotion to God and a refusal to live humbly and devoted to Him, but rather doing what is right in one's own eyes.  It is a lack of love of the Truth, instead of a constant dilligence to seek after those things by which we know to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life in Jesus.

Why does Paul warn us not to grieve the Holy Spirit?  He was given to lead and guide us into all Truth.  By rejecting or setting aside that guidence, it is a choice to leave the path of righteousness and thereby, fall away.

I have known those who have fallen away and then return to God.  It is as Micha'el has said.  It is harder, tougher and the onslaught of the enemy is vicious.  I am one of those people.  It has been nine years since I gave my life over to God for the final time.  It has been nine years of the gates of hell striving to suck me back down into the pitt.  By the grace of God, he has failed.  satan lost - God won  

Shalom, MalkyEL

[Heidi]

Those whose names have been written in the Book of life will be saved, will they not? How can those who haven't been written in the Book of Life become saved? Jesus said; "You did not chooce me. I chose you." Do you not believe him, MalkyEl? Do you not believe him when he said; "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him"? Who do you think makes the decisions of the universe? People or God?

[MalkyEL]

All I know, Heidi, is that at age 16 I got saved.  I served in the church for 30 years.  At age 46 God said, choose me or live the way you have, but you are bent for hell.  I chose Him.

The ensuing years have been totally hell.  I have lost everything.  My finances, my marriage, my children, everything.  I have lived for Him, in spite of it all.  He slowly gave me back some of what I had lost - my kids.  Everything else is gone and I consider it dung for the sake of my King.

It is as Jesus said.  The strongman was swept out at the moment of salvation. But I did not fill the clean house with God.  he came back with a vengence.  it is not easy to live a life of attack after attack.  But by the grace of God I have done so.

I will be the first to say that God chose me - I did not choose Him.  He pursued me every second every inch of the way.  Of course He knew that I would choose Him - He set it up.  But I had the free will to reject His advances for 30 years knowing He was calling me into a true relationship with Him.  That is why I knew I was heading for hell, not Heaven.

It is a mystery that God Who chooses His own,  allows His kids to run amuck and back again.  It is also fact that man can chose or reject the King of kings.  This is why Romans 1 says that man has no excuse.  This is why there is judgment and why we will be held accountable for every word and every work we have ever done.

It is a serious thing to take for granted your salvation.  I grew up in a denomination that said so and therefore proclamation of the gospel was not necessary - predestination.

Mark 4 says that the Word is sown in different types of ground.  It was received by all, but only the good soil retained it.  The rest were lost.  Salvation can be lost, but those who are His are marked for eternity.  Jesus also said in Rev that names could be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life.  It takes a balanced approach to understand salvation, not a dogmatism that takes His Word and brings it down to man's wisdom.

If you read the next two verses in Heb 6 - you will see exactly what God desires.  The ground soaks up the rain and produces that which is a blessing.  The ground that does not, produces thorns and thistles and will be burned. Either you allow the Holy Spirit to change, refine, renew, transform - or your conscience is seared and He is quenched.

[Heidi]

Jesus said in Luke, 15:4, "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?" If you are one of Jesus's sheep (which are His chosen), He has made it clear that he will find you. If you are not one of his sheep then He has made it clear that he doesnt know you. "I neber knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!" But he also says; "Seek and you shall find." Put your faith in Him, MalkyEl. If you are one of his sheep, He has made it clear that he will find you. But it's NOT something that YOU choose or that YOU can do.  "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or effort but on God's mercy." If you have a heart for God, no one can snatch you out of his hand. Trust in the Lord that if you want Him, HE will find YOU.

[MalkyEL]

Heidi,

I think you are missing my point.  I am not arguing that Jesus found me - I am not going anywhere - I am in the Palm of God's Hand.  Yes, He predestined for me to be His and I would not be lost - but the fact remains, we have free will.

It is a balance that defies human wisdom.  For God has said that we have the choice:  seek the Lord with all your heart, and He will be found [Jer 29].  We still have to respond to that call, even though He places within us the propensity or desire to answer it.

When Pharoah hardened his heart against Moses, God said the He is the One Who did it so that God could show His Glory to His people.  Yet God says that he will be held accountable for it.

There is more to salvation than just the acceptance of Jesus as Savior and God.  It is the grace of God - that initial reach of His faith instilled us to believe in Him.  From that point on, there is the will of man to either accept the full deposit of grace, faith, and desire to seek Him with all your heart.  Many receive the Word [Mark 4], but the cares of the world, and the opposition of satan steals it away.

How can one receive the Word [salvation - Rom 10] and then walk away from it?  Because the human will did not submit to the King of their hearts and they chose to do their own thing.

There are eternal ramifications for those who live on the edge of salvation and those that fully embrace a life of sacrifice and daily submission to the desire of God.  All that we do, say, think, and act upon is for eternal value.  As Paul wrote, all of these things will be burned up and the motive of the heart remains.  This is what eternal reward is based upon.

Even Paul said that many would escape as through the flame - in other words, the fire of hell nipping at their heels.  Now you can argue that they were God's in the first place - true enough - but do you want to be one of those whose salvation is based on the little as possible done, or the ones who sacrificed all for His glory?  How is one to know that the little will in fact hold his or her position, when Jesus said, you could lose it.

For myself, it is an intriguing subject.  The once saved always saved theology versus the loosing of salvation.  We could throw scripts at each all day long to prove either one - which is really fruitless.

I think the most important issue is - do not take your salvation for granted.  Seek God with all your heart - refuse to compromise anything that would grieve the Spirit of God - submit your full will to God in every iota of life - praise and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth for the grace of His mercy that you have been chosen as His own and will be remain forever in His hands - for He has said, I will never leave you or forsake you. Live life like He matters, not doing as little as possible, but rather losing your life for His sake.

Shalom, MalkyEL

[michael_legna]

Jesus said; "You did not chooce me. I chose you." Do you not believe him, MalkyEl?

Don't you ever feel guilty misquoting verses like this Heidi?  This verse doesn't appear anywhere in scripture.  Do you just make them up as you go along to suit your doctrine?

Either start quoting from a standard well known and accepted translation, or at least identify the translation you are using and then provide the book and verse reference so people can check you.

[michael_legna]

Jesus said in Luke, 15:4, "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?"

The fact that you point out one of His sheep can be lost, only proves my point that you can lose your salvation.  If you start out as one of His sheep, then you were obviously saved, yet you can still be lost and that requires you to be saved again.

Just like the prodigal son who has an inheritance, is a true son, yet leaves the Father, chooses the world over the Father, becomes dead to the Father and then repents, returns to the Father and becomes alive again.

[MalkyEL]

Jesus said in Luke, 15:4, "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?"

The fact that you point out one of His sheep can be lost, only proves my point that you can lose your salvation.  If you start out as one of His sheep, then you were obviously saved, yet you can still be lost and that requires you to be saved again.

Just like the prodigal son who has an inheritance, is a true son, yet leaves the Father, chooses the world over the Father, becomes dead to the Father and then repents, returns to the Father and becomes alive again.

Absolutely . . .  the danger comes in that we do not know how many times God will contend with us.  That is not to say that those whose hearts are stayed on Him will be lost.  It is not a "fear" that we have that we will be lost.  It is a way of life, bent on worship and love for our Redeemer, Savior, Deliverer, and King that cannot be shaken or lost.  It is those who live their lives not in accord with God, but as they see fit, that can be lost.

[michael_legna]

Those whose names have been written in the Book of life will be saved, will they not? How can those who haven't been written in the Book of Life become saved?

Don't you understand that we can be erased from the Book of Life?

Rev 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here we see Christ promising not to blot our names out from the Book of Life IF we overcome.  Not much of a promise is it if it is not even possible to be blotted out and it doesn't seem to make any difference if we overcome or not either if we cannot be blotted out.  The only conclusion is that we can be blotted out of the Book of Life, we can walk away and your doctrine is all wrong.

You really don't know your Bible very well if you missed that one.  But then maybe that translation you like to keep the identity of hidden from everyone doesn' have that part.