why does God punish those He didn't choose?

[Heidi]

I was just finishing my bible study and our lesson this week was Zechariah with references in Ephesians, 1. Most of Ephesians 1 and others passages we studied this week have to do with our being chosen from the beginning. My question is, why does God punish those He didn't choose to come to Him?

[aw]

Uh oh, Houston we have a problem- ELECTION. This is one of the most difficult concepts in all of theology. We know that God is good all the time and to all people. According to scripture, "While we were yet sinners He loved us." "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." If any man knocks the door will be open. All who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

Now, God knew beforehand who would call on His name and who would not. That does not mean that He played any part whatsoever in their making that decision. His knowing did not cause them to reject Him. It all gets back to FREE WILL.

He does NOT punish anyone right now. However, after a period of time and when all have had the opportunity to repenet but did not, His wrath will be poured out. (Like Noah and flood)

No one will ever stand before the Almighty and say, "You know Lord I really wanted salvation, but you did not elect me."

Want to know if you're one of the elect? Call on the Name of the Lord!!!!

aw

[Heidi]

That contradicts a lot of scripture, namely, Jer. 1:5, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born, I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to eht nations." And, Eph. 1:4, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamess in his sight. In his love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ." Romans, 9:18, "Therefore God hardens whom He wants to harden and has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy."  That states that God indeed plays a part in this. I do not believe that we are stronger than His will. I have no problem with this except for punishing those whom He did not choose. Are they really punished or, since they don't know what they're missing, will not be as affected by hell as believers would be? But then a lot of scripture talks about judgment day and everyone knowing that Jesus is Lord. One would think that the non-elect would then suffer eternal misery knowing they will not be with Christ. The non-elect being punished is my only confusion about not having free will. I'd really like to understand this.

[Sower]

I was just finishing my bible study and our lesson this week was Zechariah with references in Ephesians, 1. Most of Ephesians 1 and others passages we studied this week have to do with our being chosen from the beginning. My question is, why does God punish those He didn't choose to come to Him?

GOD DOES NOT PUNISH THOSE HE DID NOT CHOOSE TO COME TO HIM!

The foundation of our faith is not "theology" or "doctrines about God".  The foundation of our faith is  GOD HIMSELF -- CHRIST HIMSELF -- THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF.

So before we begin any "vain speculation" we need to understand the character of God. Scripture teaches that "GOD IS A SPIRIT", "GOD IS LOVE", and "GOD IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL". In brief, God is absolute moral and spiritual perfection. That includes absolute holiness, absolute righteousness, absolute justice, absolute grace, and absolute mercy.

Mankind on the other hand is sinful through and through, "For all have sinned and come short of THE GLORY OF GOD" (rOM. 3:23).  "The glory of God" is not only His splendor and glorious majesty, but His absolute moral and spiritual perfection. Therefore, for a man to enter Heaven, he must be as perfect as God, and as righteous as God.

A. Since ALL HAVE SINNED:
1. Christ died FOR ALL MEN (our sins).
2. Christ rose FOR ALL MEN (our justification)
3. Christ is the Saviour OF ALL MEN
4. Christ DRAWS ALL MEN TO HIMSELF
5. God invites ALL MEN TO CHRIST
6. The Holy Spirit invites ALL MEN TO CHRIST

B. Since ALL HAVE SINNED:
1. ALL must believe the Gospel
2. ALL must repent and be converted
3. ALL must receive Christ as Lord and Savior
4. ALL must be born again

C. ALL are NOT SAVED because:
1. Many choose sin over the Savior (Rom. 1:32)
2. Many love darkness instead of light (Jn. 3:19)
3. Many make excuses or make light of salvation (Mt. 22:1-14)
4. Many shun the cross-bearing of discipleship (Mt. 16:24-26)
5. Many harden their hearts when the Holy Spirit speaks (Heb. 4:7).

Divine election is entirely another matter. It begins with the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2) and predestinates those who believe to be "conformed to the image of [God's] Son" (Rom. 9:29,30; Eph. 1:1- 2:10). ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION ARE NOT FOR SINNERS BUT FOR THE SAINTS. Whenever the apostles mention these subjects, they are addressing the saints.

Because of God's own character, He would never punish those He did not choose to come to Him.  They condemned themselves when they refused to come, even after He invited them freely (Jn 3:36)!

[aw]

What scriptural support d you have that He punishes the non-elect?

Some theologians believe that it was the PLAN OF SALVATION that was pre-destined and NOT individuals to it.

aw

[Sower]

What scriptural support do you have that He punishes the non-elect?

That statement itself is inaccurate. There is absolutely no Scriptural support for such teaching. God does NOT punish the non-elect. Election is never unto salvation or damnation. His wrath abides on those WHO DO NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that BELEIVETH NOT the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (Jn. 3:36).

Here is what Scripture says: And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL. For every one that doeth evil, hateth the light, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved" (Jn. 3:19).

Some theologians believe that it was the PLAN OF SALVATION that was pre-destined and NOT individuals to it.

That cannot be since individual saints are called "the elect": "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ to the strangers... ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE FATHER..." (1 Pet. 1:2).  The "Plan of Salvation" is the entire Gospel message, but the elect are the individual "sheep" of Christ whom He knows by name (Jn. 10:1-30).

[Heidi]

If it's our choice to come to God, then how come I couldn't believe Jesus's words until I received the Holy Spirit? I wanted to desperately but it seemed like gibberish to me. How come Paul or the disciples couldn't believe him until they received the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit less pwerful than people? Is He meaningless? If it's our choice, then what if God decides to harden people? Scripture says He decides whom to harden and to whom to give mercy. Who's in control of the universe, God or us? Who of us is above Satan or the Holy Spirit?

[Heidi]

I think I've got it. Just like my analogy of parents and children, we parents create an environment where our children feel free to "amek their own choices." They think they're making their own choices when in reality, it is we who are creating the environment for them to do so. But we can step in any time and create consequences that will change their "choices", so we are actually in control. If the child does not believe he is free to make his own choices, then he will not take personal responsibility for his own choices, but instead, blame us for them. That is the way God treats us. He allows us to believe that we are choosing Him or not choosing Him even though He has already decided who will come to Him and who will not. Only God knows each one of our hearts and what we are able to handle. Some people want their earthly lives to be their only reward. But all have to believe they hve the choice to come to Him. It is at that point that we are accountable.

[smartinez1984]

Ah, I get it. God lets us THINK that we have free will so that we can THINK that we are making our own choices so that we can THINK that the consequences are a direct result of our OWN (wink, wink) choices when in reality we don't decide a single thing at all. God has already determined our outcome.

Is that correct?

By the way, I wanted some coffee but decided to wait a little longer before I go get some. A bit too lazy and tired to walk over to the coffee pot...

Hmmm... is that my decision or has God already decided that for me? Or does he even care that I drink coffee?

What IS his concern?

-Samson

[aw]

Its called PARADOX and it has been a major debate among theologians forever. There is no clear answer but as Sower has posted, God is good and does not punish people. It rains on the just and the unjust. "While we were yet sinners He loved us" and He loves everyone. If there is chastisement it is for our good or otherwise we would be treated as BASTARD sons.

Any attempt to make one terrified of God originates with His arch enemy- the devil. We are called into fellowship with Him and a member of His family.

If one wishes to look for where punishment originates, take a look at satan and not God. Hell was created for him and his followers and people go there BY CHOICE.

aw

[smartinez1984]

as Sower has posted, God is good and does not punish people.

That's a bit confusing, though. Who created Hell for Satan? Won't some humans be going there? Who will be doing the punishing if not God? Is it the same humans who will be punishing themselves?

[smartinez1984]

Also, how would one reconcile the statement that God doesn't punish people with Isaiah 10:12 -

"When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes."

That seems to state that God was going to punish the king. Am I interpreting that wrong?

If not, would God punish this king for something he didn't do out of his own will?

Is this where one says "God is sovereign, just, perfect, and he can do whatever he wants"? That I understand but the question is still remains, is that what He does?

God Bless,

-Samson

[Heidi]

So don't be lazy, Smartinez, be perfect! All of us respond to our least stressful option. There were many reasons you didn't go to the coffee pot like not being in the mood, not wanting coffee as much as you wanted to stay put, possibly being too tired because of the energy you were expending somewhere elsce, etc. We all respond to whatever rules us, period. Is that FREE choice? I have a good example for you: God says that He would raise up a foolish shepherd who would deceive many people. Now those people think and believe this foolish shepherd is telling the truth because they can only believe what they understand. They think they are exercising free will. But in reality, God knows  what rules them even though they do not. That is how He knows what will deceieve them.

It is the same with our children. They think their parents have no clue what is going on. They even think that they are outsmarting them. But since parents know what it's like to be children, they usually do know more than children think they do. We humans think we're so smart. That is the sin of pride. But God knows everything! We do not. We just think these are our choices. There are MUCH larger powers out there who control our actions; nameley, Satan and God. God has a plan, otherwise revelations could not possibly have been written. We are either ruled by Satan or the Holy Spirit. None of us is above either one. But many people think they are. That again, is the sin of pride which comes from Satan. They have no idea that God knows our number and so do a lot of people other than ourselves.

[smartinez1984]

Thanks Heidi!

Somehow this makes it seem like we're all puppets in a "game" being played by God. We are pawns that get manipulated at his leisure. Is that the view you are expressing?

I was always under the impression that God allowed life & free will to exist and that He intervened when he desired in an effort to accomplish his Greater Plan. Always, though, with the intent of letting his creation ultimately decide whether they wanted to love him or not. Yes, they would first have to be drawn but then they could decide.

You are saying that this is not the case, true? That even the love that we have for him is not a love comes from us to Him, but instead a love that is put in us by Him directed towards Him.

I can't quite see how that would be satisfying to Him but, then again, I'm not Him...

God Bless,

-Samson

[Heidi]

If He has a greater plan, Samson, then how can we have free will? How does He know when to step in? If He can intervene at all, then He is allowing us to act on certain behavior for a reason. He's calling the shots, Samson, which is why He is the master of the universe, not us. I have no problem admitting He is bigger than me. Again, we either respond from Satan or the Holy Spirit. Sinful desires come from Satan and the fruits of the Spirit come from the Holy Spirit. The sin of pride is what leads us to believe we are in control. But since the sin of pride comes from the devil, we really aren't in control, we just think we are. In reality, we are responding from the devil. We are simply trapped in our own sinfulness with no way out except the Holy Spirit. That's why God sent His only Son to die for our sins because we, of our own accord, can not have victory over them. Thinking we can, only perpetuates the sin of pride.