A Scene at the Great White Throne...Oops!

[AVBunyan]

“And I laid me down in that place to sleep:  And as I slept I dreamed a Dream.  I dreamed a dream, and behold:”

God: “Well, Mr. BW, I see you finally made it to the great white throne.”

Mr. BW: “Yes, Lord it is good to see you face to face.  You know direct access to thee has been pretty hard considering the church I belong to, you know with Mary, the saints and all that I have to go through to get to you.”

God: “Yes, I understand perfectly.”

Mr. BW: “I wish I could have come dressed a little better. I’m sorry for the rags I have on – I had such a nice set of clothes on before I got here but something seems to have happened on the way up – must have been a rough trip I guess.”

God: “No need to apologize for you are dressed quite appropriately for this occasion.”
Now, Mr. BW, now that you have my ear what do you have to say for yourself?”

Mr. BW: “Well, Lord, I’ve been a faithful son of the church for many a year; I’ve been sprinkled and baptized; I’ve partaken of the mass every time the doors were opened believing it was the literal body and blood of your son; confessed to my father….”

God: “Now, Mr. BW, we take Matt. 23:9 literally up here so, be careful.”

Mr. BW: “Well, you know Lord that is just a matter of interpretation.  What I meant was that I confess my sins to the holy priest…..”

God: “You mean, baalite priest, don’t you?

Mr. BW: “Oh, you just got that from that book of Protestant lies called “Two Babylon” by Alexander Hislop.  I can’t believe a man would print such mean and false facts…I mean, huh, misrepresentations of my religion!”

God: “You were saying, Mr. BW.”

Mr. BW: “Anyway, I’ve given faithfully, read my prayer book, prayed with my beads, read my bible…”

God: “You are right on that one, Mr. BW, that bible may be yours for it sure is not my Bible for it reads different than the one I wrote.”
 
Mr. BW: “Well, we have our bible and you have yours – every man has that right.”
God: “For the record would you mind giving me an explanation on where that one came from?”
Mr. BW: “Oh, yes, Lord, this bible came from the Vaticanus and Siniaticus manuscripts, you know the most ancient and reliable ones available!”

God: “And where did the scholars come up with these?”

Mr. BW: “Siniaticus was found in a monastery at the foot Mt. Sinai, you know, where Moses gave us the law.”

God: “Interesting that this manuscript is associated with the law.”

Mr. BW: “And Vaticanus was found a trash can in the library at St. Peters!”
God: “Well, they should have left it there.”

Mr. BW: “Oh no, Lord, this is where the new translations came from.”

God: “Yes, I know for I willed it to happen so as to help corrupt the body of Christ and create confusion so the one world religion and government could come into play in the last days. Now, Mr. BW, would you mind giving further light on this for the record.”

Mr. BW: “Yes, you see these manuscripts were snuck into the Revision Committee over in England in 1881.  The committee was duped, oh, I mean, convinced that because of their preservation on vellum scrolls that these were the oldest and most authentic manuscripts available. They called this the RV and then it went to America in 1901 and became the AV 1901 and after that it became the NASV, the RSV, Good News, Living Bible and finally that wonder of wonders, the NIV!  Amazing, now fundamentalists and Protestants are all reading Roman Catholic bibles and don’t even know it!  Oh goodie, goodie, goodie!!!”

God: “Yes, your church pulled off a good one there and I commend your church for it’s typical and though corruption of my word.  It is a shame that people think that all the new translations are just updates of the AV1611 and don’t know that the AV1611 came from a completely different set of manuscripts than all the new translations are built upon. Now back to your testimony.”

Mr. BW: “Oh, yes, well I’ve said many a vain repetitions as prayers, did good things for others, gave lots of money for charities, believed the church fathers, and well, basically when I became a convert I just pulled myself up by my own boot straps and here I am!”

God: “Mr. BW that is quite a personal testimony but where is my Son in all that?”

Mr. BW: “Oh, he is right next to me on my dresser hanging on the cross.  He is there every morning when I get up.”

God: “No I don’t mean how you see my son but what part did he play in your conversion?”
Mr. BW: “Oh, I believe he died for my sins, we all believe that, but we believe that Christ just opened the door and made the way possible so we can, by our good works, be made acceptable to you.  We, by faith, believe that you will accept our good works!  We are not like those others who trust your Son’s sacrifice alone for we believe Christ didn’t do enough and we want to help him out a bit.”

God: “Mr. BW you certainly put a lot of effort into your salvation but all I can say to you is, depart from me for I never knew you.  Now please stand aside for there is an angel waiting to throw you into a lake of fire.”

Mr. BW: “But Lord, what about him over there that deceived AVBunyan?”

God: “Well, AVBunyan, what do you have to say for your salvation?”

AVBunyan: “I am a poor sinner trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone.”

God: “You see, Mr. BW, how simple that was.  If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

God: “Now, Mr. BW, we have head enough, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So I awoke, and behold it was a Dream

Note:  I know God will not have a conversation like the above but I trust you get what I am trying to illustrate.

[Rich]

A very wise man once said "never take personal offense at someone elses ignorance". I think that applies in this case.
  You have a wonderful day.

[blainefabin]

A very wise man once said "never take personal offense at someone elses ignorance". I think that applies in this case.
  You have a wonderful day.

this is from another website, but i thought it was appropriate.

Another satisfied Catholic!

One of my readers writes:

When I converted to Catholicism, it was the statue worship that appealed to me the most, but banner worship has its appeal as well. Historians have been able to show that pagans also worshipped primitive banners so either one has authentic Catholic-pagan connections.

I also liked that I didn't have to read the Bible any more and that I would have to earn my way to Heaven. Besides that, I really appreciated the fact that I could check my brain at the door and blindly follow the leaders.

A really cool part of Catholicism is that now I can commit all of my favorite sins and then go to Confession right before I go out and do them again!! Actually, while I was Protestant, I guess I did that too, but without the Confession part. But sitting in that little room just feels so holy, especially with the statues nearby.

Then at Mass I usually get to listen to my favorite song, "On Eagles Wings" though I must admit I don't like it now as much as the first 67,000 times I heard it. The cannibalism aspect, I have to admit, grosses me out a little, but I comfort myself by knowing that it is a false doctrine anyway and so it is only really bread.

I know exactly how you feel. For me, it's the chance to worship Mary and adore her as the Creator of Almighty God that is so appealing. And, of course, I really love knowing that salvation is completely up to me and my righteousness apart from the grace of God. Also, the deep pride I feel in the Church's many Inquisitors, cold-blooded killers, persecutors, perverts and criminals was a big draw. Some people think this is problem, but I frankly have no idea what they are talking about. I am aware of no commands of God against these things because, of course, I never read the Bible.

Which reminds me: I just *love* adding absurd human traditions, myths and legends to the pure word of God. Also, I get a real kick out of enslaving myself to little rules and regulations so as to chain myself with fear and cut myself off from the love of God.

If *you're* an ignorant benighted Catholic like me, feel free to add your favorite spiritually crippling legend, lie, or practice to the pool. The more the merrier! That's what makes enslavement to the traditions of men and blindness to the saving gospel of Jesus Christ fun!
posted by Mark Shea at 5:16 PM


anti catholicism is like don quixote fighting windmills...

mike

[Berean_]

I was once involved in the RCC...you nailed it! It did feel so "good" though didn't it. There was "God" on the alter! All the statues, the gold, the works!!! Wow! I remember working so hard, always trying...Sheesh!

It is so good to now be saved and free.

[Heidi]

Right on, Bunyan! Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough! They want to glorify themselves as the way to holiness! I especially liked the part where you said that God willed all this to happen because He does have a plan. He is definitely master of the universe, not us!

[Rich]

Okay, we've passed ignorance and moved into the realm of stupidity, but coming from the sources, i guess we take it w/ a grain of salt.

[sincereheart]

*wonders how long till this becomes a debate*

[AVBunyan]

Okay, we've passed ignorance and moved into the realm of stupidity, but coming from the sources, i guess we take it w/ a grain of salt.

Typical response - no scriptural answer just cute sayings. But we have come to accept these kinds of defenses.

[blainefabin]

I was once involved in the RCC...you nailed it! It did feel so "good" though didn't it. There was "God" on the alter! All the statues, the gold, the works!!! Wow! I remember working so hard, always trying...Sheesh!

It is so good to now be saved and free.

i was once involved in the rcc too. then i became born -again. after about 10 years of that i returned to catholicism. i have never felt so saved and free as i have in the last year.

mike

[Berean_]

I was once involved in the RCC...you nailed it! It did feel so "good" though didn't it. There was "God" on the alter! All the statues, the gold, the works!!! Wow! I remember working so hard, always trying...Sheesh!

It is so good to now be saved and free.

i was once involved in the rcc too. then i became born -again. after about 10 years of that i returned to catholicism. i have never felt so saved and free as i have in the last year.

mike

_________________________________________________

Hi Mike,

What do you mean you became born-again?

What is it now that makes you "feel" so saved and free?

Thanks for your time Mike.

Berean_

[michael_legna]

Okay, we've passed ignorance and moved into the realm of stupidity, but coming from the sources, i guess we take it w/ a grain of salt.

Typical response - no scriptural answer just cute sayings. But we have come to accept these kinds of defenses.

Why would you expect a scriptural answer to your made up story with no scriptural basis.  The type of stories you have choosen to make up and offer as if they reflect the statements of God Almighty are verging on blasphemous - so don't expect serious answers to these childish daydreams of yours.

If you could just once provide a sound scriptural basis for your comments you would get a scriptural response.  But as can be seen by anyone who cares to go back and review our debate previously your position is not based on scripture as a whole but on a limited subset of a few verses taken out of context from the rest of scripture while you choose to ignore the rest of God's word as irrelevant to you in your time.

[michael_legna]

Right on, Bunyan! Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough! They want to glorify themselves as the way to holiness!

You continue to make claims and spread lies about the Catholic Church and never once let it bother your mind that you cannot support these claims with any proof.  All this does is show your ignorance and prejudice which you have obviously learned from others and not from your own study (no matter how much you claim not to follow men).

Please provide a reference from and official teaching source of the Catholic Church that says "Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough!"  You can't provide one because one does not exist.  This is a strawman made up by those who hate Catholics in order to more easily attack them.  The truth is that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a gift made available only through the sacrifice of Christ.

The following are paragraphs for the Catechism which say just that:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament" which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

[Heidi]

Please, Michael, then tell us where Jesus said to call the pope Holy Father and the priests Father. Tell us where he said to pray to Mary, Peter, and Paul. Tell us where he said to surround ourselves with gold and silver statues, (some of them pagan like Apollo which is in the Vatica), line our altars with gold-studded trimmings, parade around in red robes, wear gold-studded head coverings, and carry gold-studded candle-holders. Tell us where he said to make fasting a public event. Tell us where the bible said that Mary bore Jesus no brothers. It is very easy to attack someone's beliefs without backing uo your claims. We have. Now, please support your claims that ours are not scriptural by giving us scripture references for your beliefs. First, start with Christ, because His words are the foundation of Christianity.  

[Berean_]

Right on, Bunyan! Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough! They want to glorify themselves as the way to holiness!

You continue to make claims and spread lies about the Catholic Church and never once let it bother your mind that you cannot support these claims with any proof.  All this does is show your ignorance and prejudice which you have obviously learned from others and not from your own study (no matter how much you claim not to follow men).

Please provide a reference from and official teaching source of the Catholic Church that says "Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough!"  You can't provide one because one does not exist.  This is a strawman made up by those who hate Catholics in order to more easily attack them.  The truth is that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a gift made available only through the sacrifice of Christ.


________________________________________________

This is from the Council of Trent...I know you know what that is. Can't get much more authoratative than that for the RCC.  I think the first one takes care of your statement ...I didn't have to go to the second one. There is so much in Catholicism that isn't Scriptual. I really hope you will look at God's Word and use that as your measuring stick for truth. Paul has the doctrine for the Body of Christ today.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.



Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,[13] let him be anathema.

[Berean_]

My last post came out very small print...don't know what I did wrong...so I will post again.  

This is from the Council of Trent...I know you know what that is. Can't get much more authoratative than that for the RCC.  I think the first one takes care of your statement ...I didn't have to go to the second one. There is so much in Catholicism that isn't Scriptual. I really hope you will look at God's Word and use that as your measuring stick for truth. Paul has the doctrine for the Body of Christ today.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,2 though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.



Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,13 let him be anathema.