Why doesn't God show himself?

[someguy]

By asking this I don't mean literally, obviously.  I mean why doesn't God make it obvious to everyone that he exists.  There exists no real evidence for God.  Also, why so many different religions that all say you have to believe in the exact word?  I know most people will say 'to test your faith'.  But to me that seems ridiculous.  If you do decide there is a God you still have to choose between which religion is right.  It seems to me that if God made it obvious that he did exist and which religion is correct it would be a big enough test to follow exactly what he says, something which few religious people do anyways.  What do you all think about this?

[questions]

In part you basically said there is no real evidence that God exists and why is it not obvious that God does exist?

OK, not trying to be smart here.

Where did the moon, the stars, the solar system, the first tree for example come from? It had to start somewhere. It had to be put there in some form in the beginning, unless one believes the items mentioned above were always there in some form, which does not make any sense. One just keeps going back and asking where did this come from, where did that come from, etc. until the point is reached where it was somehow always there, or it was put there.

The above paragraph is why the atheist argument does not hold water, unless of course water was always here in some form. A bit of a pun if you will.

[Allinall]

You said:

By asking this I don't mean literally, obviously.  I mean why doesn't God make it obvious to everyone that he exists.  There exists no real evidence for God.  

God says:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.  Romans 1:18-20

You said:

Also, why so many different religions that all say you have to believe in the exact word?  I know most people will say 'to test your faith'.  But to me that seems ridiculous.  If you do decide there is a God you still have to choose between which religion is right.  It seems to me that if God made it obvious that he did exist and which religion is correct it would be a big enough test to follow exactly what he says, something which few religious people do anyways.  

God says:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.  John 14:6

and...

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father.   1 John 2:22-23

You said:

What do you all think about this?

I believe that God has shown man all that man needs to know that He exists in the creation He made.  Look out at the stars at night:

The heavens declare the glory of God,
   and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.  Psalm 19:1

I believe that there are many who claim to have the way to salvation.  But I know that Jesus said that He alone is the way.  If a "religion" denies that, in any way, it is wrong[/b]!

Does that help?

[someguy]

Questions: you are saying where did the universe and everything in it come from then.  This is a valid question.  However, there are many heavily supported scientific theories as to where all of these came from.  One question that is not answered is where the matter for all of this came from in the first place.  Either it was created or has existed infinitely.  Some do not believe in infinities though.  This would lead to creation, but the same questions can be asked about a creator.  What was God doing before he created the universe?  Has he existed infinitely?  This leads to the same problems as the scientific theories.  Either God has existed infinitely or he was created.  I doubt anyone will say he was created.  So, God must have existed infinitely.  But that brings you back to denying the scientific theories because of the impossibility of an actual infinity.  Kind of a circular argument...

In response to Allinall:
Your evidence that Christianity is the only way comes from a quote from the bible.  This hardly seems like evidence at all.  All of the religions that I was referring to insist that each is the one correct religion and each will obviously have quotes similar to the one you provided.  You are also saying that any religion that says Jesus is the way is correct then?  So wouldn't that make any sect of Christianity true in your eyes?  Also you say that any religion that denies that is wrong, how do you know this?  What makes a religion that does not believe in Jesus wrong?
On to the next piece, you and your quotes from the bible claim that the universe itself is enough evidence for the existence of a God.  I would have to disagree because, as I have discussed above, there are other possible answers as to the source of the universe.
Your evidence all comes from the Bible.  How do you know that the Bible is true?  What sort of evidence supports that?
I'm not trying to undermine anyones faith here, I just have a lot of questions and am curious to see how other people deal with these problems.  Thanks.

[Tibby]

In your reply to Questions, I ask you to show these Scientific proofs? The Big Bang theory is been proven to be a theoretical impossibility, and the believers are nothing more then bitter psudo-scientist  more interested in disproving Christianity then furthering mankinds development.

In your reply to Allinall, You didn’t think anything thru. See, you asked us here why God, if he is real, doesn’t show himself. Your questions was hypothetical: assuming God was real, why doesn’t he show him self. Well, if the stipulation of your hypothetical question is that God exists, then it is only logical to assume, in the Hypothetical question, that the bible is true as well, at least in the stand point of this situation. Sorry for over use of “Hypothetical.”
On top of that, sense you are so big on “Science” you should know all historical and archeological facts we know of back up the bible. So, even if we go solely on science, to say the bible is not an reliable source is in conflict with what you said easily. Don’t worry about your theories, there are “heavily supported scientific” FACTS that prove the bible is accurate.

[someguy]

First of all, I never said "scientific proofs".  Theories.  Questions that pertain to subjects that happened long before humans ever existed are pretty much impossible to prove.  Also, just because science cannot currently account for the exact origin of our universe doesn't mean it never will.  Think of where we were several hundred years ago when we believed that the earth was the center of the solar system.  Yes, science can't answer everything, but neither can religion.  All too many times have I asked a question and repeatedly received the answer "we can't understand everything that God does".  How is that different from science not yet explaining everything?  Also, you failed to respond to my questions as to God's existence before ours.

Assuming that God exists for the sake of an argument is completely independent of assuming that everything in the Bible is true.  In fact, you really answer nothing in response to my discussion with Allinall.  I would also like to know what kind of "scientific" (I like how you put science in quotes...) facts you have that prove the Bible is accurate.

[Tibby]

First of all, I never said "scientific proofs".  Theories.  

Well, then, show me the theories!

Questions that pertain to subjects that happened long before humans ever existed are pretty much impossible to prove.  Also, just because science cannot currently account for the exact origin of our universe doesn't mean it never will.  Think of where we were several hundred years ago when we believed that the earth was the center of the solar system.  Yes, science can't answer everything, but neither can religion.  All too many times have I asked a question and repeatedly received the answer "we can't understand everything that God does".  How is that different from science not yet explaining everything?  Also, you failed to respond to my questions as to God's existence before ours.

What questions? What was god doing before he created the Universe? Battling with Satan, making Angles and other Heavenly beings, making other Universes, and things of this nature. You asked Questions, not me. Of course I didn’t answer!

Assuming that God exists for the sake of an argument is completely independent of assuming that everything in the Bible is true.  In fact, you really answer nothing in response to my discussion with Allinall.  I would also like to know what kind of "scientific" (I like how you put science in quotes...) facts you have that prove the Bible is accurate.

You want proof that the bible is real? Unlike yourself, I am not going to squabble of semantics, and thereby avoiding the questions, I will give you this proof you ask for. But then, what right do you have to ask me to produce proof, when you can’t even produce so much as a few theories?  Anyways, the following is a list of evidence that proves the bible is accurate, feel free to research it!

 1. In northern Syria in the 1970s, the Ebla archive where discovered, and has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. These Documents, written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C., demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name "Canaan" was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word "tehom" ("the deep") in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. "Tehom" was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.

2.The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.

4. Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.

5. It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.

6.Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5, was said to be a biblical myth as well. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus, according to recorded history, that is. Then tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon.

7. And this is the most important, the existence of Jesus Christ was recorded by Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, the Talmud, and Lucian.

You want more? I’ve got more, plenty more. But it is your turn, kid. Notice, my first reply after your request to see proof, and I gave it, yet, I have yet to see any of your theories. You’re just another clown who comes in here, trying to annoy Christians and upset their belief. We have been around for over 2000 years, kid, one asinine post from a wanta-be scientist is going to change our minds. We are talking about beliefs and theory that have been proven over time, and as time goes on, they are only proven more. How about this Junior, you go off, do some research, and then we will talk. Until then, keep your childish posts to your self.

[someguy]

Show me the theories?  The theories I was referring to are the theories of evolution and inflation universe theories, which is a similar, but somewhat more plausible theory than the big bang theory.  Yes, it does have problems, thats why it is still a theory.  As I said before this does not rule out its possibility of being true.  Just as the idea of God has its problems, but this does not rule out the possiblity of God existing.

I asked several important questions that you avoided such as how long has God been around?  Has God existed infinitely?  and so on.  I was asking anyone that has an opinion on these not just Questions, although that provided you a nice excuse to avoid them.  

Who is it that started squabbling semantics....
Anyways, this proof you have provided is extremely weak.  Yes, it may show that some of the historical aspects of the bible are true but that does not mean in any way that Jesus existed and was who He is claimed to be.

I came to this forum hoping for friendly discussion.  As you can see that are a lot of questions I have about Christianity that have not yet been answered.  So, I came here thinking that maybe I could find a little intellectual discussion and maybe we could ALL learn something from it.  Instead you decided to ignore any good discussion topics, choosing only the ones that you think you can 'prove' and speak in a condescending manner.  Thanks for the hostility and trying to end any open-minded discussion.

[GarColga]

author=Tibby

7. And this is the most important, the existence of Jesus Christ was recorded by Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, the Talmud, and Lucian.

Very very few serious people maintain that Jesus never existed.

The Jesus ref. in Josephus is almost universally believed to be a Christian interpolation, probably by Eusebius.

Suetonius makes a reference to "Chrestus", but it isn't clear that he meant "Christ" because "Chrestus" is the Latin form of an actual Greek name. He also implies that "Chrestus" was in Rome when the Jews were expelled in 49 AD or so.

Thallus' writings have been lost, so there is no way to determine if he actually wrote what Julianus Africanus said he did in the 3rd century.

Pliny's letter to the Emperor Trajan merely records the existence of Christians in Asia Minor, which I don't believe was ever disputed by anyone.

The Talmudic references to Jesus are actually anti-Christian and date from 200-500 AD. They are not contemporary and are a reaction to the spread of Christianity. The references claim that Jesus was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier named Pantera or Pandira and that Jesus learned to work magic while in Egypt.

Lucian's sarcastic comment from the 2nd century is evidence only that he was aware of Christians and their beliefs.

[someguy]

Thank you GarColga.  This is the kind of information/discussion I am looking for and I find it helpful.  I do not deny that Jesus ever existed, but I do question who he really was.

[Petro]

I am not interested in getting involved in the discussion, but I will add fuel, so as to help keep the discussion from dying on the vine..

Don't worry about the spelling, after all , it s history that provides the answers..

The Bible is a History book, and it is probably more accurate than any other resource available, especially if one wants to know who Jesus,is.



In the gospels, John writes this concerning  the prophet Isaiah;

Jhn 12
35  Then Jesus said unto them, while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36   While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John at verse 41, says Isaiah saw;  Jesus , in His Glory.

The Apostle John in writing this passage of scripture, quotes Isaiah's writings at chapters  6 and 53, of the book of Isaiah.
 
The book of Isaiah is dated 7th century B.C. , most events discussed are pre and post exilic concerning the nation of Isarel.

Isa 6
1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4  And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5  Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6  Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7  And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8  Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11  Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12  And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13  But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

John in verse 38, above spoke of  Isaiah's prophecy, concering  Jesus, first coming
As the Lamb of God, at Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

In verse 40, above John is refering to, Isaiah's vision, ( Isa 6:1) where he saw the Lord (Jesus) sitting on the throne, his train filling the temple and verse 3 tells us, the whole earth is full of His Glory, reffering to His second coming as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

The word Lord in verse 1 of  Isa 6, is the Hebrew word Adonay an emphatic form of the root adown (adon); the Lord (used as a prop.name of God only)

So, one asks, Who is Jesus?   He according to the historical book of the Bible is the God of the Bible.

Has he shown himself??   You be the judge..

Petro

[questions]

Someguy,

I am willing to look at the stars and sky etc., and say something or someone, or some higher being, referring to God had to put it there, and I leave it go at that.

That is what the people who fought in the "American Revolution" did. I'm referring to the Deists.

You make a valid point of God being around a very, very, long time, infinity even. Frankly, when it gets to that point it is over my head. And how God got here, I don't have a clue!

You may be interested to know, Albert Einstein, who was obviously a great believer in and contributor to science as well, was a Deist.  

Regards,

questions

[Allinall]

Someguy,

You said:

In response to Allinall:
Your evidence that Christianity is the only way comes from a quote from the bible.  This hardly seems like evidence at all.  All of the religions that I was referring to insist that each is the one correct religion and each will obviously have quotes similar to the one you provided.  You are also saying that any religion that says Jesus is the way is correct then?  So wouldn't that make any sect of Christianity true in your eyes?  Also you say that any religion that denies that is wrong, how do you know this?  What makes a religion that does not believe in Jesus wrong?

If you have read any of my posts in the Creation vs. Evolution thread, then you would have seen that the basis of my argumentation comes from my faith in God and in His Word.  I believe God to exist, as I believe that this world is evidence of that fact.  I believe Him also to exist because of His revealed word.  He has shown Himself in both.  Yet, you want proof.  What proof would satisfy that does not require you to have faith in it?

As for the other religions, each, and every one (some under the name "Christian") is dependent on man's work to obtain temporary salvation.  If man fails to live up to his end of the proverbial bargain - he is lost.  There are many on this forum that attempt to marry biblical christianity with the worlds system of "religion."  True christianity looks to Jesus Christ as the author and finisher of our faith.  He paid the price and offers that payment for our sin for permanent forgiveness.  If I have faith in that work, that God-Man, and if I repent and confess my sins, then I have the salvation others work for.  Salvation dependent on Jesus' work - not mine.  All other religions have some aspect of the adherent's necessity for work-earned salvation.

You said:

On to the next piece, you and your quotes from the bible claim that the universe itself is enough evidence for the existence of a God.  I would have to disagree because, as I have discussed above, there are other possible answers as to the source of the universe.
Your evidence all comes from the Bible.  How do you know that the Bible is true?  What sort of evidence supports that?
I'm not trying to undermine anyones faith here, I just have a lot of questions and am curious to see how other people deal with these problems.  Thanks.

From your own arguments, you state that the very existence of unexplained matter that the evolutionist will claim to be the origin of all things lends to the idea of a Creator:

One question that is not answered is where the matter for all of this came from in the first place.  Either it was created or has existed infinitely.  

Regardless of what aspects of that Creator then come into question, the understanding is that it must either have been created or already existed.  The creation itself points, whether in support of, or refutation of, a Creator.  It is either believed, or it is not.  Every evolutionist fights it, not because bible-thumpers force it down their throat, but because they have it engrained in them by the very Creator they so adamantly deny.  As for further evidence...what evidence would suffice that does not require faith to believe it?

You ask for proof.  God expects faith.  What do you require more my friend?

[Tibby]

GarColga- That is my point, exactly. Too many people maintain that Jesus lived, way to many for anyone to say he is a mythical character. Even people who disagreed maintain he lived. We asked for proof the bible is accurate, I gave it.


The rest of you, keep up the good work, nice posting.

[joyunending]

I just got done reading all of these posts!! VERY INTERESTING~!
   Everyone is trying to 'prove' their 'theories', beliefs, etc.  I can't 'prove' to you that God exists, like you can't 'prove' to me that He doesn't!!!!  You have to take the evidence given to you and consider the sources, the 'thousands' of years that has passed and the unlikely hood that the Bible could have been written in the first place to all fall into place, prophesies that have come to pass, all coincidence???  That it'self would be a miracle.. Jesus did exist,,, proven by historical record... WAS HE THE SON OF GOD??
    I don't know of anyone else ever written about to do the miracles that He did, and rise from the dead!! Did He rise from the dead?  over 500 people saw and spoke to Him...
     I suggest the book The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Johs McDowell... It has many historical facts that have been throughly researched.... Please find it , read it, and then come back here and see what you believe?

As far as God, creation, etc.  God is, was, and always will be. How in the world are we to 'know' where He has been and what He was doing before the world was formed?  We humans, no matter how much we delve into the formation of the world, the bing bang theory, etc. they are all theories.... God is a belief....... you either believe or you don't... It's that simple.... Our job as Christians is to tell you the Good News that Jesus is our Savior and that you have a chance to eternal life through belief in Him and His word.... it is up to you to accept or reject it.... FAITH is just that!!!!  Please get this book and read it throughly.... It is fascinating and it answered a lot of questions I had.. It really  helped me to quiet the questions in my heart and gave my soul rest.... Good luck and God bless,,,,, Joy