looking for answers

[fats]

Hi everyone,

I'm an agnostic who look up in envy at all the people I've met who have commtied their lives to a faith and henceforth found peace and tranquility in their lives.

But the problem is I'm a very skeptical person and I am not willing to believe in dogmatic viewpoints, hopefully all you christians here can convince me about something that I could value my whole life and liberate me from this curse of answering everything with "I don't know" without engulfing me with dogma (the response that I got when I tried this in various other forums and discussions).

thanks all,
Fats.

[michael_legna]

Hi everyone,

I'm an agnostic who look up in envy at all the people I've met who have commtied their lives to a faith and henceforth found peace and tranquility in their lives.

But the problem is I'm a very skeptical person and I am not willing to believe in dogmatic viewpoints, hopefully all you christians here can convince me about something that I could value my whole life and liberate me from this curse of answering everything with "I don't know" without engulfing me with dogma (the response that I got when I tried this in various other forums and discussions).

thanks all,
Fats.

Since you list yourself as agnostic I assume you believe in God, but to help you we need to know more about what it is you hold to.  Where do we start?  

For starters do you believe in Jesus Christ as God?  Do you accept the scriptures as the word of God?  Answer those two and give us as much more detail on any doctrines you do understand and hold to and we will see where we can go with it.

[ollie]

Hi everyone,

Hi,

I'm an agnostic who look up in envy at all the people I've met who have commtied their lives to a faith and henceforth found peace and tranquility in their lives.

A faith? Do you mean just any faith or belief or the one God gives us through Jesus Christ?

But the problem is I'm a very skeptical person and I am not willing to believe in dogmatic viewpoints,

What is your concept of "dogmatic"? Are you refering to dogmatic views from "a faith", any faith, or your conceived opinions of Christianity?

hopefully all you christians here can convince me about something that I could value my whole life and liberate me from this curse of answering everything with "I don't know" without engulfing me with dogma (the response that I got when I tried this in various other forums and discussions).

Christians will try to teach you of Jesus Christ and His great gift of salvation through God's grace to all who would obey His gospel.

thanks all,
Fats.

Your welcome and welcome to the site,
Ollie

[Allinall]

Hi everyone,

I'm an agnostic who look up in envy at all the people I've met who have commtied their lives to a faith and henceforth found peace and tranquility in their lives.

But the problem is I'm a very skeptical person and I am not willing to believe in dogmatic viewpoints, hopefully all you christians here can convince me about something that I could value my whole life and liberate me from this curse of answering everything with "I don't know" without engulfing me with dogma (the response that I got when I tried this in various other forums and discussions).

thanks all,
Fats.

Go here:

http://www.angelfire.com/in4/thedelighted/index.html

 

[Evangelist]

Hi Fats:

Welcome to the board.

As a self-confessed agnostic, I take it that you "don't know that there is, or is not, a God". Secondly, what you don't want to hear is some kind of recitation of doctrine.

Ok...first off the bat, we need to establish whether there is, or is not, a God, a supreme being worthy of being called God, and I think what I hear you saying is that you want some kind of "proof". What kind of proof do you want, Fats? Are you wanting empirical proof, like a scientist would want, or will a reasoned and rational look at things that exist suffice to tilt you one way or the other?

Without being dogmatic about it, I would like to present you with some scripture.

First, you've probably heard it said that in the book of Genesis, it is said that God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them. It also says that until a certain point, there was nothing (void), and that God spoke the worlds and things into existence.

Here's a scripture from the book of Romans, where it says:
Rom 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them

Here, God is simply saying that all things that exist show His hand in their creation, and that God is (and has) shown those things to us. Of course, there are a lot of people who deny any possibility of "intelligent design", or "special creation", and insist that we, and everything, just happened....a fortuitous set of circumstances resulting in.....us!

 
Rom 1:20   For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here, God is saying that although He is invisible, He has left His imprint and mark on everything that is, and that we (and the animals, and the earth, and the heavens) KNOW this, deep down inside.  Because we know it (even if we deny it), we are then left with no excuse before Him of denying His existence.

OK...so what? Well, take a little trip. Go outside. If you have a flower bed, so much the better...if not, just sit down in some grass, or grab a leaf from a tree.  Begin to examine it...carefully. Consider how it works, and what it does. That leaf, which is full of chlorophyll, has the ability to pass off oxygen, which it makes fromt he sugars produced by the root system which absorbs minerals and water and converts them into that sugar....and at the same time, the leaf absorbs carbon dioxide (very deadly to us, whereas oxygen is good!). And, surprises of all surprises, that carbon dioxide happens to be the primary ingredient required by the root system to convert minerals and water into sugar.  Quite a system, don't you think?

Now, look around....if it weren't for trees, and grass, and other good green things doing all this metabolizing, then the oxygen content on this ole earth would be different. Are you aware that if the oxy content were 1.5% higher than it is, or 1.5% lower than it is, then all life as we know it would cease to exist? Conversely, if the CO2 were off by a percent or two, the same thing?

And that's just the beginning. Life on this earth is wondrously wrought life, complex beyond imagination, and so absolutely interrelated and interdependent that it boggles the mind to consider that....it was all an accident...life....just happened.

Space doesn't really permit examining so many other things....such as the way the water cycle works....or how the planets balance each other...or the fact that if this earth were just a few thousand miles closer or further from the sun, we would not be here.....or the way the universe is expanding....faster, not slower as was thought for so long....or the way everything seems to be held together (and apart) by some mysterious form of energy.

God is. While science may never find adequate "proof", rationalism and reason can.

The ball is in your court...we're here to help you in whatever way we can.

[fats]

thanks for the replies everyone, even before I read any of them, I felt that I was warmly welcomed and that everyone was willing to help, I'm very grateful. Before I continue, I must first give to all of you my apologies if at any instance I expressed a point of view that might be insulting or disrepectful to you, I only do so in my sheer ignorance and I apologize to you again, please understand me.

For micheal_legna,

To tell you more about myself, I'm a teenager from South East Asia, I wasn't born a Christian and I don't live in a Christian community (actually I can even say I live in a community which has certain prejudices against Christianity). Thus I am new to the religion and the best answer I can give to your two questions is, with all due respect, "no".

As for your assumtion that I believe in God, I'm quite confused, did you assume that I believe in the Christian context of God or that I believed in the existence of any  monotheistic God as in Islam or Judaism or the existence of multiple divine beings like in Hinduism?

For Ollie,

When I said "a faith", I meant any faith or belief, I meant to say I envy people who submitted to religion and hence found meaning, pupose and happiness, a few Christains, some Buddhists, some Hindus, some Muslims.

As for "dogma", I meant the doctrinistic views that some/most religions have which are to be believed by its followers without reason or logical judement on their part. After thinking about it for a while, I have to say that it was naive on my part to have said that. Again, I must apologise that I say this in my ignorance and would be very grateful if the questions I have about Christianity or any religion can be made clear to me.

For allinall,

thanks for the link.

For Evangelist,

I couldn't thank you enough for spending  your time to write such a long reply for me.

Yes, I admit that what you assumed is true, I don't know that there is or isn't a God.

I didn't say "proof" in my post but I think most peple will get the idea that i wanted empirical or scientific proof for the existence of God, this is not what I meant, although I have great respect for scientific enquiry, I am vey aware of the limitations of science and when I said I was skeptical, I am also skeptical about some dogmatic proposals that are made in the name of science and the believe of some people that science makes religion obselete, I certainly have a strong beleive that this view is wrong and I believe that religion and spirituality is above and beyond science.

So, as you said, I would greatly appreciate "the reasoned and rational look" you talked about.

The rest of the reply, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is an argument for the Teleological Proof for the existence of God. I have been aware of the pros and cons behind the 3 main different arguments for the existence of God, namely the Cosmological argument, the Teleological argument and the Ontological argument.

But I beleive my knowlege is obviously incomplete and I'll browse for a few hours on the net and spend some time at the library tomorrow thinking and reading up more about what you said, maybe we can continue tomorrow with the conversation.

Once again, thanks everyone and hopefully with your help I can gain something beneficial out of this.

fats

[michael_legna]

For micheal_legna,

To tell you more about myself, I'm a teenager from South East Asia, I wasn't born a Christian and I don't live in a Christian community (actually I can even say I live in a community which has certain prejudices against Christianity). Thus I am new to the religion and the best answer I can give to your two questions is, with all due respect, "no".

Thanks for your answers they at least give us a starting point and reduce the risk of either of us offending the other through our assumptions.  For your part thought don't worry too much about offending me I don't easily let things get to me personally.

As for your assumtion that I believe in God, I'm quite confused, did you assume that I believe in the Christian context of God or that I believed in the existence of any  monotheistic God as in Islam or Judaism or the existence of multiple divine beings like in Hinduism?

I assumed that by agnostic you meant the same meaning I have come to understand by it and that it was you believe in God but not in any particular organized (or disorganized) religion.  That is why I assumed you believed in God (since you labeled yourself an agnostic and not an atheist).  I did not intend to imply that I assumed you believed in any particular God or even a monotheistic approach and am sorry if what I said sounded like I was making that assumption.

Now to continue.  I would like to know why you believe that a god or gods exists.  

I may be asking you alot of question in sort of a Socratic method approach I hope you don't mind but it will help me present what I think is the best way to understand Christianity from your position.

I look forward to hearign from you and I am sure the others will be willing and able to help you as well.

[Allinall]

Fats,

You're most welcome!  And I'm never insulted or offended by people searching for truth my friend.  

[Evangelist]

Fats:
My priviledge and honor.

The rest of the reply, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is an argument for the Teleological Proof for the existence of God. I have been aware of the pros and cons behind the 3 main different arguments for the existence of God, namely the Cosmological argument, the Teleological argument and the Ontological argument.

Just mho...although both the cosmological and ontological arguments are soundly constructed, they tend to be  more circular and thus less rational than the teological. Also, the teleo argument is the one single argument that finds itself in complete harmony with the Word of God.

Look forward to more.

[JudgeNot]

I'm an agnostic who look up in envy at all the people I've met who have commtied their lives to a faith and henceforth found peace and tranquility in their lives.

Dear Fats - we aren't the one's to "look up to".  We're only people - just like you.  We are no better than you and we have as many sins as you.

[Sower]

Hi everyone,

I'm an agnostic ...But the problem is I'm a very skeptical... convince me about something that I could value my whole life and liberate me from this curse... Fats.

Welcome to this forum, Fats:

A healthy skepticism does not hurt anyone, but when you become "very skeptical" that is unhealthy and a symptom of a spiritual malady. It really means that deep down inside you are afraid of discovering the truth, since the truth might make some demands on you [instead of you always making demands on the truth].

So before you receive "something that [you] could value", you should do some soul-searching.  The truth that can and will liberate you will also demand that you make a RADICAL DEPARTURE from your current way of life and thinking. It's called "repentance" and "conversion".

To be blunt, Christ is the Truth, and He will come to you and set you free ONLY when you trust Him as a little child trusts his or her father -- unreservedly and without even wondering whether they should or shouldn't trust. Repentance includes trusting Christ with all your heart, and mistrusting yourself with your whole being.

In other words, the Truth is more than dogmas, doctrines, philosophies or religions.  The Truth is God Himself, who wants you to know Him and believe Him, but on His terms, not yours. In other words, His plan is to live within everyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and make them "new creations". That's called "the gift of eternal life".

Your "whole life" is more than your life-span on earth.  It is an eternity spent either with God and the Lord Jesus Christ, or with Satan and totally separated from God. And the key to being "liberated from the curse" is the Cross of Christ.

The only thing to "convince you" about is that you, like all of us who were without Christ, are "lost", like the rest of the human race. You'll say, "Convince me that I am lost", and the response is "One of these days, you will die". Death means that there is something the matter with all of us, which is that we all are under the curse of "sin and death".

Only the Holy Bible provides the Truth about life and death, sin and righteousness, mortality and immortality, eternal life and eternal Hell. So you could start by getting yourself a Bible and reading it as though your life depended on it. You will value this one suggestion all your life.