Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages

[Paul2]

2nd Timothy,

    I'm not mad at all. I've got nothing against Petro. Its the Pre-Wrath interpretation itself that I'm going to attempt to disprove. I've found serious flaws that should not be overlooked. I may have sounded like I want to "attack" Petro which is not the case at all. The word "attack" is a poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps I should say "reveal the flaw" rather than attack.

    This isn't personal. I just want to point out the flaws I have found within the Pre-Wrath interpretation. This is not Paul2 vs. Petro, its Pre-Tribulation vs. Pre-Wrath. After months of defending Pre-Tribulation the debates have revealed flaws to me in the Pre-Wrath interpretation which I feel its time for me to address. I never have called anyone a false teacher or other names and have no desire to do so. We are studing what we believe Scripture teaches. I simply desire to point out what I've seen concerning the Pre-Wrath view.

    I feel that I've remained patient throughout these posts and plan to continue being patient. I'm not planning on becoming mean or vicious or insulting. Perhaps I may have sounded as though thats the direction I'm heading toward but thats not my intent. This isn't a war but a discussion. There are many things that I wish to discuss concerning the Pre-Wrath interpretation. If the "tone" of my posts has offended anyone I'm sorry. I enjoy these debates. I said its "time for me to have fun" because I enjoy these debates. I got a little excited when I started to discover flaws within Petro's interpretation because for months I've been defending my position against Petro's position. Now I have found the evidence to make a case against the Pre-Wrath interpretation being a possibility. I hope Petro will stay and continue our study with us but that is up to Petro. I just want to set the record straight that the Pre-Wrath interpretation has flaws of its own.

    I don't know what Petro thinks of me as a person. I know he believes that the position I take on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is wrong, thats ok. I have no hard feelings for Petro as a person, I know he believes with his heart that he is correct and I'm wrong. I believe in my heart that I am correct and he is wrong. This is not personal in any way. Its interpretation against interpretation and not person against person. We claim to be seeking for the truth. I want to address the Pre-Wrath interpretation in search of Biblical truth. I believe that there are flaws that prevent the Pre-Wrath interpretation from being the truth and I will address those issues in search of the truth.

   Doing so will deepen the study of the End Times. We have been focusing on the Pre-Tribulation interpretation but spending a little time studing the Pre-Wrath interpretation will bring us closer to the truth we all should be seeking.

   Nobody hesitates challenging the Pre-Tribulation position so I feel that I shouldn't have to hesitate on challenging the Pre-Wrath position.

   I don't believe the Pre-Wrath position can be defended. Anybody is welcome to try but I want to address many things that seem to be unresolvable conflicts in the Pre-Wrath interpretation. I am seeking out the truth.

   I hope I have made it clear that this is not personal. Interpretation vs. interpretation and not person against person. It is not my intent to offend anyone. I am simply searching out the truth.

                                                   Paul2

[Paul2]

Problems I see with the Pre-Wrath Rapture Part 1

    First let me start with this: From Petro's interpretation  the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church takes place on the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. From what I've read of Petro's posts he believes the Rapture occurs the very same day as the Second Coming. Petro, if I am getting this wrong please tell me because this is what I believe you have said.

    If the Rapture of the Church were to take place the same day as the Second Coming I see problems which I will address.

   If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth. If that is the case then the Church has also experienced the Great Tribulation on earth, the reign of the Antichrist and also the mark of the Beast which is very important to keep in mind. If this is the case, that the Church has been on earth for Daniel's 70th week and experienced the Mark of the Beast it can be concluded that all who are to be Raptured refused the mark of the Beast. This would leave only those who are eternally lost with the mark of the Beast left on earth at the Rapture. The Wrath of God will be poured out after the Rapture of the Church on a Christ rejecting world.

    If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth). After the wrath of God is poured out upon the Christ rejecting world Jesus Christ will come to the earth to establish His kingdom. By placing the Rapture of the Church on the same day as the Second Coming it would stand to reason that all the Saved would be Raptured and all the lost would remain on the earth for the wrath of God. Later in the day Christ would visibly return to the earth and conclude Daniel's 70th week. The prophecy given in Zechariah 14 will take place when the Lord returns to earth to touch down on the mount of Olives. The only people left on the earth  should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

    Considering the possiblity of the above scenario the conclusion I see would be that all the saved would have been Raptured and the lost would remain on earth for the wrath of God. People do not repent during the Wrath of the 7 vials, so the only people on earth at the time of the Second Coming would be those who received the mark of the beast and the lost. All those who are saved, the living and the dead would be resurrected at the Rapture according to this scenario.

  Here comes the first problem I see. If all those who are saved are Raptured the same day as the second Coming then all the saved should have immortal bodies at that point.

   Now lets look at a few verses of Scripture:

Revelation 20:7: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
   8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
   9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

    From the above verses of Scripture we see that the nations of the earth will be tested again by Satan leading a rebellion and the nations will be gathered again to attack Jerusalem at the end of the millenium.

    These who are tested again by Satan's rebellion can not be resurrected Saints. These who are tested are still mortal and still able and willing to rebel against God. Obviously these who are tested can fail the test and be sent to the lake of fire. They obviously were not Raptured but remained alive until the Second Coming and entered the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How is this possible if the rapture of the Church took place hours before the Second Coming? Remember that during the 7 vials of the wrath of God Scripture states that nobody repented. How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

   This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast. There should be nobody left to survive and enter the millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How can there be people who will be tested by Satan after the 1000 years of the millenium have ended when Satan is released to seduce the nations one more final time? There can't be!

    The Rapture of the Church must occur before the Second Coming and the wrath of God to allow people time to repent and come to faith in Christ and enter the millenium alive in natural unresurrected bodies.

   I'll be adding on to these points in my next posts. I just getting started.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

  The above verses are refering to the millenium. These spoken of above were not Raptured resurrected Saints. These are the survivors and the children of survivors of the Great Tribulation that entered the millenium in natural bodies but have had the curse of sin removed from them but death is still a possibility. These spoken of are not immortal yet. These are the survivors of the Great Tribulation that will be tested by Satan at the end of the millenium.[/color]

                                                            Paul2

[Paul2]

 On my last post I started to explain that during the Millenium there will be people who will remain in natural bodies that can die and also be tested by Satan when he is released from his prison. Those who choose to follow Satan in his final rebellion will be cast into the lake of fire with him after the Great White Throne Judgement.

   Anyone who was Raptured will receive their immortal body, they can not be tested by Satan or ever fall from Grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
   17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."[/color]

   The above verses make it clear that those who are Raptured will be with the Lord forever with no chance of losing Salvation. They will become immortal at the Rapture.

    In the verse below we will see the fate of the Martyred Tribulation period Saints.

Revelation 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
   5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
   6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

   The martyred Tribulation period Saints will be Resurrected and reign with Christ for the 1000 year Millenium, the Second Death has no power over them because they have been Resurrected and can not be tested by Satan and fall.

    Tribulation period Saints who survive the Great Tribulation will enter the Millenium as unresurrected mankind, and will be tested by Satan and sadly many will choose to follow his rebellion after 1000 years of Christ's Reign. People hate rules now, just wait until Christ is reigning and there still in mortal bodies, many will grow weary of Christ"s Rule and be willing to follow Satan during his last stand.

    The problem is how did these Tribulation Saints that escape martydom and survive to the end of the Great Tribulation without receiving the Mark of the Beast miss the Rapture? Consider the cost of refusing the mark, martyrdom or life on the run being hunted down, unable to buy or sell anything. Anyone who is willing to be martyred rather than receive the mark should have realized that to receive the mark meant eternal damnation. They must have come to faith in Christ which is the reason they would be willing to be martyred rather than accept the mark of the Beast. If they believed enough to refuse the mark they should have been Raptured the Day of the Second Coming according to the theory that the Rapture and the Second Coming happen on the same day. But this is not the case. Living Tribulation Saints enter the Millenium in natural bodies and can fall and can sin and can die and can choose to follow Satan's rebellion and can be thrown into the lake of fire.

   This is the problem with this Pre-wrath interpretation. Somehow people believed enough to refuse the mark of the Beast but not enough to be Raptured but then believed enough to be allowed to enter the millenium alive only to experience a 1000 year test with the Lord reigning over earth. Then Satan will be allowed to test them one more final time.

   The question is how did unresurrected natural mankind enter the millenium alive after refusing the mark of the beast but missing the Rapture which leaves them in their natural bodies?

   This is only a problem when the timing of the Rapture is not Pre-Tribulation, before the tribulation period begins.

   In reality those Tribulation Saints that are martyred are the lucky ones, because they will be resurrected and enter the Millenium as priests in immortal bodies that Satan can not test and that the Second Death has no power over. The Tribulation Saints that survive to the end of the Great Tribulation and remain alive in natural bodies when they enter the Millenium are subject to the rules and testing of the Millenium and will be tested by Satan when he is released after the 1000 years are over. The Tribulation Saints that enter the Millenium alive and unresurrected can choose to follow Satan in his rebellion and be cast into the lake of fire with him. The martyed Tribulation Saints receive immortal bodies at the Second Coming of Christ and get a much better deal than those who run and hide and survive.

   I'd recommend martyrdom to the Tribulation period Saints, turn yourself over to Satan's authorities and allow your head to be cut off. By doing so you ensure an immortal body for the Millenium and avoid being tested for a 1000 years and Satan"s rebellion which could cost them their Salvation. Theres no guarentee that those who enter the Millenium alive in unresurrected bodies will not fail the final test and follow Satan into the lake of fire. Thats my opinion of it anyways.

   The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

   The Rapture of the Church takes place before the Tribulation period and Daniel's 70th week. Next Daniel's 70th week begins and multitudes come to faith during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week after witnessing the Rapture. At the mid week of the 70th week Satan is thrown from heaven, Antichrist (the beast) receives authority over the earth for the 42 remaining months of Daniel's 70th week. The Wrath of God begins at the mid week and the effect of the 7 vials begin to be poured out from the midweek on. The new Tribulation period Saints are then hunted down and many are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast. At the end of the 70th week Christ resurrects the martyred Tribulation Saints and returns to the earth with His WIFE the Raptured Church that has been with Him in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. The Tribulation Saints that escaped martydom and remained alive until the Second Coming are then gathered by angels to appear at the sheep and goat judgement by Christ along with those who received the mark of the beast who will be destroyed and be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millenium.

    By placing the Rapture and the Second Coming on the same day or even placing the Rapture after the mark of the beast is issued has unresolvable conflicts with Scripture.

    I'll continue on in my next post, got to go coach my sons soccer game now.

                                                                Paul2

[Paul2]

                 Pre-Wrath problems part3

Lets take a look at the 7 vials and the effects they have on earth from the Pre-wrath perspective first.

 Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2:  And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

    The effect of the first vial are painful sores which infect those who received the mark of the Beast. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It would only last for hours instead of days, weeks, months and years. 24 hours of suffering would not be pleasant but nothing compared to approcimately 3 1/2 years of duration if the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague.

Revelation 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

    The effect of the second vial is that every living soul in the sea dies and the sea becomes as the blood of a dead man. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Yes its sad that everything in the sea dies but the effect would only last hours as far as the plague aspect. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine that every living thing in the sea dies and there are weeks and months and perhaps a few years of the sea being like the blood of a dead man. Imagine the stench of the coastline and the rotting flesh of sea creatures washing up on shore and the germs and sickness that will follow. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
 6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy."

     The effect of the 3rd vial is that the fresh water supply of the world turns to blood, the rivers, the water found underground all turned to blood. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. After all people can go 3 days without drinking water so 24 hours should be easy. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine mankind having no water to drink for months if not a few years. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:8: "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

   The effect of the 4th vial will be the sun scorching people with great heat, and remember, they Repented Not. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It wouldn't be pleasant but it would only be one day in the sun, 24 hours or so in misery. By the way the day of the Second Coming is a cloudy day but thats besides the point. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine being burned by intense heat from the sun for months if not a few years. People complain about a 3 day heat wave now, imagine the worst heat wave in history lasting for months.It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:10: "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
 11: "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

   The effect of the 5th vial is darkness on the throne of the Beast, along with the pain from the sores of those who received the mark of the Beast, which is the continueing effect from the first vial. And once again we see that nobody repented. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Whats the big deal about one day of darkness. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine months if not a few years of darkness over the kingdom of the Beast and the painful sores continueing to plague those who accepted the mark of the beast. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:12: "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
 13:  "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 14:  "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
 15:  "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 16:  "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

   The effect of the 6th vial is that the Euphrates River is dried up to "prepare" the way for the kings of the east, also the Satanic Trinity of Satan, Antichrist and the false prophet work miracles to gather the armies of the world "to the battle of THAT great day of God Almighty". If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not possible. The wording of the verses says that "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. It will take time for the Euphrates to dry up and for the 200 million man army of the kings of the east to go from China to Jerusalem. If it were just kings and not the army spoken of in Revelation 9 they could use bridges but as I said in a previous post there would be an incredible bottleneck traffic jam for 200 million to cross the Euphrates so the river is divinely dried up to PREPARE the way for the gathering around Jerusalem by the armies of the world. The armies of the world must be in place around Jerusalem before the second Coming of Christ and to try to fit all these events into one single day is not possible or probable. The battle of Armegeddon is a campaign not a quickly assembled group that decide to go to Jerusalem at the last moment and arrive and are assembled in a matter of hours. This takes time. Learn from the U.S. lead Iraqi freedom war. How long did it take for our armies to gather around Bagdad? It wasn't hours, it took months of preparation and then days once the final assault began and we set the record for the fastest movement of an army in world history.

Revelation 16:17 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 18: "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
 19: "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
 20: "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
 21: "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

  The effect of the 7 vial leads to the return of Christ at His second Coming. This is the time period that Zechariah 14's events take place. The final plague has been poured out on the earth and Christ Himself will be retuning to establish His kingdom after this plague is poured out.
   It should make far more sense to realize that the Wrath of God begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week which allows the plague to become real horrific plagues that to try to fit all 7 vials between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth if both events are only hours apart. The Wrath of God wouldn't be all that bad if its effects only last a single day. It wouldn't be a pleasant day by any means but the plagues only become horrific when there is time for the full effect of each plague to manifest itself with the prolonged effects having time to truely devastate those who dwell on the earth.[/color]

                                                      Paul2

[Paul2]

  PreWrath Rapture problems part 4

    I have presented evidence that there will be unresurrected people in natural bodies that will enter and dwell in the Millenium on earth. I will offer more evidence from Isaiah.

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
   7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
   8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
   9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.[/color]

    There will be little children on earth during the Millenium. The will be infants on earth during the Millenium. The curse on nature will be removed and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. Wild Beasts will allow little children to lead them. These little children and those who are infants are not in resurrected bodies. They have natural bodies without the curse of nature on them. As in the days before noah when men lived to be 800- 900 years old so shall it be during the Millenium. Perhaps the aging process will be much slower than before the flood. The next verse will support the aging process being slower than it was on people before the flood.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
   20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

   Notice carefully that the child shall die an hundred years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.  First of lets remember that the scripture says "Die" which means that death is possible for those who remained alive or were born into the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. A child will die at a hundred years old. The aging process is extremely slowed down at the time of the Millenium. The sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. This means that by sinning a person can die and will be considered to have been accursed for committing sin. Death has no power over those who are resurrected into immortal bodies. These people spoken of by Isaiah are in mortal natural bodies with the curse of nature removed or at least partly removed. They are still mortal and will also have to be tested when Satan is released from his prison at the end of the Millenium. There is the possiblity that many who enter the Millenium alive in their natural bodies and those who are born of natural men during the Millenium will follow Satan into rebellion when the Millenium ends. Those who were Raptured (the Church) and those who were martyred and resurrected (Old testament and Tribulation Martyred Saints) will not be subject to Satan's last rebellion. Tribulation Saints that survive until the Second Coming of Christ will enter the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies and they and their children born during the Millenium will be the ones Satan will try to lead astray during his final rebellion.

 Isaiah 65:21: "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
   22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
   23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
   24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
   25: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

    I'll stop here for now and allow time for responces.

   I would like an opinion of how I have done so far presenting my case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Have I presented reasonable evidence and backed it up with Scripture? Am I making my case? I truely want to know how I have done so far in presenting the case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture as it is presented in these posts. Please let me know your opinions on these last few posts. I want to know how many people feel I'm making a reasonable agruement against the Pre-Wrath interpretation. I'm trying to learn to be more effective in my presentations and explainations, so I welcome the critique. Let me know how you feel I am doing one way or the other.
                                                          Thank you.
                                                            Paul2

[JudgeNot]

I want to take Paul2, Petro & Michael_L out fishing someday - anchor in some secluded cove - then sit back, sip iced tea and enjoy the show.  Tibby could make an interesting addition - then it would be a forum.

Anyone else want to go?  

[Paul2]

    All the above posts are from the "the best of Paul2's pre-Trib. Rapture pages. Petro who's interpretation I have challenged has not answered these posts or the issues contained as of yet but his attacks keep coming and his lack of defense is quite comical. Take a look at the actual debates on pages 21 and 22 of the best of Paul2's pre Trib. Rapture pages and you'll see just what I mean. Petro is Classic!

    These arguements deserve a thread of their own and now they have one.

                                                      Paul2

[Paul2]

I want to take Paul2, Petro & Michael_L out fishing someday - anchor in some secluded cove - then sit back, sip iced tea and enjoy the show.  Tibby could make an interesting addition - then it would be a forum.

Anyone else want to go?  

      I can be packed and ready to leave in an hour!  8)I can sure put on a show for you with my mouth by talking let me tell you. I don't know how to type so debating becomes very time consuming for me but I can talk up a blue streak. I'm not shy in case you haven't noticed Give me a Bible and allow me to talk instead of type and we'd get down to the heart of the matter pretty quick.It takes me an hour to type what I can say in 2 minutes.

    I'm ready, who's got the boat? I love live debates. On the forum people have time to decide how to answer, but in a live debate things happen more quickly. You better have your facts ready and be able to defend them on a seconds notice. You also must be able to present your position in a live debate. Micheal would need to bring the Catacism(Spelling?) so we could look up who said what and when but thats ok. I'd like to see where somethings came from.

   Can I drive the boat? Come on, let me drive the boat!

   Who would you be betting on? Thats what I'd like to know!

   I liked the idea of a boat so nobody could just walk away. Your stuck in a boat with me so get over it and deal with it. Can you picture me pointing to my Bible saying "read this, explain what this means to you. What about this as I flip the pages of the Bible. Explain what this means...That can't be possible because of this(flipping pages)..." You'd have a grin for sure, no matter who you sided with.

   I like the idea of driving the boat!  

                                                         Paul2

[2nd Timothy]

I want to take Paul2, Petro & Michael_L out fishing someday - anchor in some secluded cove - then sit back, sip iced tea and enjoy the show.  Tibby could make an interesting addition - then it would be a forum.

Anyone else want to go?  

Count me in!  LOL

Grace and Peace!

[Eddielee]

 
       If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth.

The pre-wrath position holds that the church goes through the wrath of satan, which is part of the 70th week, but it does not go through the entire 70th week, which includes the wrath of God.

   If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth).

The second coming and the wrath of God start on the same day, but the wrath of God spans the rest of the 70th week, through all the vials. It does not end on the same day as the rapture; whatever has been written in other posts the pre-wrath view does not hold that the end of the 70th week and the rapture happen in one 24 hour time span.

The only people left on the earth  should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

There is a group in this that is not being taken into account. There must be people who:
a.) Are not given spiritual bodies during the 70th week
b.) Who are not believers (else they would be raptured)
c.) Who do not take the mark of the beast

These things must be, because in Isaiah 65:20 this is written about the Millenium:
Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;

If this is talking about the Millenium, then flesh must survive the 70th week (as pointed out in these posts). If it did not then no one would be able to die at a "young" age.

How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

   This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast.

The span of time between the conceptualized pre-wrath rapture and the 7 vials can be nearly half of the 70th week. There are people who are neither saved nor taken by the mark of the beast throughout all of it;

   

[Eddielee]

About men not repenting during the vials:

Revelation 16:8-11
Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.


The statements about non-repentence of men in these verses does not indicate that everyone has the mark, or that everyone does not repent. Throughout the books of the prophets God continually states that the peoples hearts are hard, and they are unrepentant, yet at the same time there is a prophet among the people and a remenant that have not defiled themselves.

Take this example about the wrath of God from Zephaniah:
Zephaniah 1:17-18
"I will bring distress upon men,
        And they shall walk like blind men,
        Because they have sinned against the LORD;
        Their blood shall be poured out like dust,
        And their flesh like refuse."

        Neither their silver nor their gold
        Shall be able to deliver them
        In the day of the LORD's wrath;
        But the whole land shall be devoured
        By the fire of His jealousy,
        For He will make speedy riddance
        Of all those who dwell in the land.

If this passage is interpreted the way the verses in Revelation can be interpreted, then every human being on the earth will be killed by God. None will survive in flesh to enter the Millenium.

Revelation tells us that God still reaches out to people during the time of the 7 bowls:

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people-- saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Here an angel is preaching the gospel, but how do we know that it is possibly during the time of the vials? From this passage:

Revelation 16:17-19
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

It seems that Babylon does not fall until around the 7th vial; meaning that the chronology for the events in chapter 14 have to line up somehow with the 7th vial, because Babylon cannot fall twice, yet it is recorded as falling in chapters 14, and 16, and more in depth in 18.

[Petro]

paul2 repliy #324

Petro,

LOL, you can call me anything you want, doesn't mean its true.

Back to attacking my interpretation again I see.

Your interpretation Paul on the pre-tribulation rapture is wrong because it is founded on the premise, that there is a secret coming of Jesus 7 years before He returns to establish His Kingdom on this earth.

You are only fooling yourself, and whoever else believes your rendition of this important account given by two men, in white apparel; at Acts 2:10-11.

The chief verse you rely on for this mis-interpretation is ;

1 Th 4
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Your distorted interpretation of the word meet, prevents you from seeing and understanding the significance of this word in being able to set the end times eschatological prophecies in some semblance of order.

As I stated before you have been swept off your feet, with your theory, which is founded on Margaret MacDonald's prophecy of 1830, ultimately embraced as "Millenial Dawnism" by the watchtower society, and a refusal to address serious errors, in your mis-interpretation and twisting of words, critical to the understanding and studying of such a hard subject of which Jesus himself, said;

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.   Mat 24:30-36.

Clearly Jesus is speaking of His personal and visible return to earth, at the end days, when He comes with ALL HIS SAINTS 1 Th 3:13.

According to your theory, you would have us believe, you know when that day, will come contrary to Christs own words.

I have pointed out to you, that the word meet at  1 Th 4:17, is the Greek word apantesis Strongs #529, which is used only 4 times in the entire NT.

This word is not only rejects your understanding of themeaning of this word, but your understanding actually distorts it, to state that after this meeting in the air with Jesus, both Jesus and those whom He met in the air will return back to heaven is no0t indicated because of the Greek definition and meaning of this very word, and of course from this point onward, you create your scenario of a 7 year period of absence of the Holy Spirit upon the earth, while the wrath of God, which you define as great tribulation, ending upon Jesus second coming.

Contrary to the language of this verse, you build a theory , not based on plain scriptural understanding, but on a private understanding only you possess;  we do not have a time signal in this passage, telling us that this occurs seven years before Christ sets foot on the Earth.
 
Nor do we have any indication as to where our destination is, in English. It just simply states,  that we will meet Christ in the air. It is certain that we do not stay suspended in space; we have to be going somewhere.

However the Greek word meet describes exactly what occurs after the meeting in the air;
We don't have to twist the word to make it fit, our understanding of the text.

This word as I previously pointed out, appears in only 4 in verses of the NT.

It is only used to describe one certain situation. In all three of its usages in the other NT verses, and it is used in a specific way.

The first time apantesis (meet) occurs is in Matt 25:1 & 6.
At verse 1, the full extent of this word is not made clear, but the next two uses of this word, leave no doubt to the reader, what is in view concerning the use of this word.

Note:
 
Matt. 25:6 "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to MEET (apantesis) him!'
Here, in the parable of the 10 Virgins, is the first occurence of the word, apantesis.    The 10, not knowing when the Bridegroom is coming, go out to meet him. They know he is coming, but not when. They bring lamps, and 5 bring oil. When the cry comes that the Groom is coming, 5 are ready to meet him, and go to meet him, and accompany him back to the house of his bride. The Groom approached the house of the Bride, the virgins went out to meet him, and then returned with the Groom as he continued on his journey to the bride's home. In this event, notice that it is the virgins who turn around, not the groom. They go out to MEET (apantesis) the groom, turn around, and go back to where they came from. The groom does not turn around and go back to his home, having as his companions the five wise virgins.

This is a favorite verse of pre tribbers, isn't it.

He is met by the five wise virgins, who turn around and accompany him to the home of the Bride.

In your theory, you do butcher this word.....by claiming the Lord returns back where He came from, after having met, Christians in the air at 1 Th 4:17.

This is error, pure and simple..

The second occurence of the word apantesis come in Acts 28:15.

Acts 28:15 The brothers there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to MEET (apantesis) us.
In this passage we understand;

 Paul is being sent, as a prisoner to Rome. He is under guard. Christian brothers in Rome who know of Paul hear about his imminent coming to Rome, and go out on the road of Paul's approach to meet him. When they meet Paul at the Forum, they rejoice with him, and then turn around and accompany Paul back to Rome.

This is the second time MEET (apantesis) is used, and the second time that it shows those who go out to meet someone,  then turn around and accompany that person on their journey to his intended destination.

For your information , Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, p. 402, (Nelson, 1985) has this to say about the word apantesis:

"It is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. "    (It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary) (Moulton, Greek Test. Gram. Vol. I, p. 14)"


This example of what I have written herein, is used to point out a major foundational error in your theory, of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Proper use and understanding of the Greek word apantesis, demands an explanation, of your mis-understanding of this word, which is diferent from that of expositiors.

Unitl you address this inconsistency of your mis-interpretation of this word which leads to your understanding of an pre-tribulation rapture, you have nothing to crow about, much less call forth  other theories, which may be examined in the lite of your distorted understanding of these ends times prophecies by Daniel or any other prophets.

No offense to you personally, it is your theory I take issue with, and only by defending something which is clearly erroneouness,  you have turned this into a personal matter.

Instead of being offended that Gods Word is herein violated by your theory, you are offended by hard to answer questions posed to you, which you cannot defend, thereby making it clear you are not interested in seeking out the truth of Gods word, at all but, advancing your own agenda on this pre trib theory.

Thanks but NO thanks...............

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

eddielee,

I have one thing to say concerning your statement;

posted by eddielee at reply #09

There are people who are neither saved nor taken by the mark of the beast throughout all of it;

It is understood, that those who have not received the mark of the beast where not deceived by the false prophet.

I don't buy the idea, that anyone who has not been decieved neither has received the mark of the beast, will perish, however, if this were so, this may very well explain why, the Everlasting Gospel is preached by the angels at the end.

Deception by nature has to sow sin, which brings on death, so it is insufficient to say, the undeceived will perish, the Judge of all the earth, will do right, and only those who have rejected His Words will perish;

God desires one be hot or cold not lukewarm, only He knows the hearts of those He saves, and those who are chosen, have their names written in the Book of Life.

 
 Blessings,

Petro

[BUTCHA]

I want to take Paul2, Petro & Michael_L out fishing someday - anchor in some secluded cove - then sit back, sip iced tea and enjoy the show.  Tibby could make an interesting addition - then it would be a forum.

Anyone else want to go?  

great idea ill pick up sincereheart ( we need someone to make the ice tea dont we. ), then ill pick ur a4c, brother love and the cruesader . glad i bought that mini van , what am i thinking, thats only two people

[BUTCHA]

petro
the pretrib. comeing of christ isnt litteral . 1 thess 4;16-17/ cor. 15;51-58.the second comeing is after the rapture and the 7 yr. trib matt 24;30 / rev. 19;11-21
                                   
                       you both are very intence its great
                                     
                                           butcha