The Rapture:"Arose by any other name"

[choobaca]

Hi to All,

Part 1

I'm new here and have read some posts on the "rapture". Someone once said...."Get two Jews together, and you'll get three opinions". So goes the rapture doctrine. The views vary from pretrib, midtrib, postrib and some say No rapture at all because the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. For the most part, this true as far as semantics goes. The word is Latin but it's counterpart in the Grk of the NT is "harpazo". Literally it means to catch up or away. This the phrase Paul uses in 1 Thess 4. Harpazo is used in other places in the NT, so it is not an isolated term in Paul's letter as we will see later in this study.

A good point to understand, and remember, is that God's Word has explicit or explained truth as well as implicit or implied truth. So to say that the word "rapture" is not in the Bible, does not mean that it's meaning is not implied in Paul's phrase....."caught up".

Another point to help our understanding of this term, is to look at the word rapture as simply a vehicle like a plane, train or autombile. When you go on vacation, you will leave point A and travel to point B, or your destination. So your car was the "vehicle" or means for you to travel. Let's look at the rapture the same way.....it is the vehicle to gather us together to meet Christ. So the emphasis is getting to the Who, Christ, and not by the what, rapture or "catching up". If we see it this way, then the debate on the word disappears for we are going to be gathered (by rapture) to meet Christ in the air.

Now I ask you to be patient with me, for this study is a little long. Read it at least twice. If you disagree with what it teaches, we can take up those issues in your replies. I am open to critique for "we all still see thru a glass darkly".

Be Blessed,
choobaca

Con't pt 2

[choobaca]

Con't from Pt 1

1 THESS 4

The Thessalonian letters picture the times as they will be when God brings His plan to completion with Jesus' second advent. In this overview, we'll attempt to show that both letters definitely point to the posttribulational return of Christ.

Looking at these two letters, we will begin with 1 Thessalonians 4 and study only those verses which contribute to our understanding of the second advent. Although the first three chapters of 1 Thessalonians contain isolated verses pertaining to Jesus' return, we will comment on them as we join them to the main doctrine of chapters 4 and 5. These isolated texts are 1:10, 2:12, and 3:13.

A Descent To The Earth

Pretribulationism rejects the belief that the Church will be present on earth during the Tribulation because that would mean that the Church will experience the wrath of God poured out on the world. The doctrine proposes that the Church must be "taken up" before that time, as Scripture is clear that we are destined not for wrath, but for salvation. It is true that when the victorious Lamb of God descends, God's wrath will be poured out on the world. So what about the Church? Later, we'll discuss in fine detail exactly why we won't experience God's wrath. But here we want to find out what does happen to the Church as Christ returns. To do so, let's look at some key words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 18:

VERSE 13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

In verse 13, Paul states the purpose of his letter. The reason Paul wrote this chapter was because of the ignorance of the Thessalonians as to when the dead would be raised. At some previous time (see 1 Thess. 5:1), Paul had told them about the glorious coming of the Lord and the signs that would signal that coming. Apparently he had either neglected to tell them about when the dead would be raised, or they didn't understand what he'd said. Now the Thessalonians had a question: would Christians who had already died miss out on this glorious Day that Paul had told them about? This concern had most likely filtered down to a depth of self concern as well: if they themselves died before the Lord returned, would they be denied the opportunity to witness that return? Chapter 4 responds to this concern by giving necessary details about the resurrection of the dead saints. The Thessalonians had the hope of resurrection into glory, but they didn't know its timing. This lack of information was causing them grief.

VERSE 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul tells the Church that if they believe as truth that Jesus died and rose, then they should also believe as truth what he is about to tell them: those who have died will return with Jesus at that time. Paul is differentiating here between the living and the dead who will return with Jesus; it is the spirits of "those who have fallen asleep" who will return with Him.

VERSE 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul begins to tell the Thessalonians that not only will the dead saints take part in the glorious coming of Christ, but they will be raised from the dead just before the living saints are changed. Paul used the words of Jesus Himself as his authority to speak in this manner. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord" refers not to a current word given to him, but to words that Jesus Himself had spoken while on earth. He was most likely referring to what Jesus said in John 11:21 27.

In this chapter of John, Martha tells the Lord that if He had been there, her brother Lazarus would not have died. He replies, "Thy brother shall rise again." Martha answers, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus' next words, scholars believe, are most likely the "word of the Lord" by which Paul was speaking. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (To the dead saints, Jesus will come back as the Resurrection: "the dead in Christ shall rise first"   1 Thess. 4:16.) Jesus continues, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (To the living saints, Jesus comes back as the Life, changing the saints who remain alive on the earth until then.) " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [be changed, "never die"]"   1 Thess. 4:17).

Con't Pt 3

[choobaca]

Part Three

We should note that Martha knew Lazarus would be raised on "the last day," the day Jesus refers to when He calls Himself the Resurrection to the dead saints and the Life to those who remain until He comes. Now, the doctrine of pretribulationism teaches that the resurrection happens in four phases: the resurrection of Jesus (phase 1), the resurrection of the dead saints at the pretribulational rapture (phase 2), the resurrection of Lazarus and the rest of Israel occurring after the Tribulation (phase 3), and the resurrection of the unbelievers after the millennial reign (phase 4). But by referring to Jesus' own words, Paul places the raising of all the dead saints after the Tribulation on the last day of this age.

VERSE 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

VERSE 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This verse brings full comfort to the Thessalonians. When the dead are raised, then the saints who are alive, who are left, are caught up to be with them; not one member of the Church, be he dead or alive at the time, will miss the great Day of the Lord.

Meeting Jesus In His Descent

Pretribulationists picture Jesus descending in the clouds, meeting the saints in the air, and returning with them to heaven for seven years (the time of Tribulation on earth.) But what is crucial to the posttribulational point of view is knowing where Christ's descent takes Him. We open this discussion with a quote from Bob Gundry:

"Other things being equal, the word 'descend' . . . indicates a complete, uninterrupted descent, like that of the Spirit at Christ's baptism (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32,33) and that of Christ in His first advent (John 3:13; 6:33,38,41,42,50,51,58). Where a reversal from downward to upward motion comes into view, a specific statement to that effect appears, as in Acts 10:11, 16 ('a certain object coming down, . . . and immediately the object was taken up into the sky'). In the absence of a statement indicating a halt or a sudden reversal of direction, we naturally infer a complete descent to the earth, such as will take place only at the posttribulational advent" (1).
Let's look at two of Gundry's scripture references: Matthew 3:16 and Acts 10:11,16:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, . . . the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him (Matt. 3).
 
There is no mention of the Spirit reversing direction. Therefore He descended all the way down to the earth. We know that after He descended, He remained to empower Jesus' ministry.

In Acts 10:11,16 we read of Peter's seeing a sheet descend from heaven:

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth. . . . This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven (Acts 10).
If Luke did not specifically state that the sheet was immediately taken up into the sky, we could infer that it remained. The words "let down" (same as "descend" in the Greek) and "received up again" in this verse clarify that there was a change of direction.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, there is nothing to indicate that Jesus reverses direction in His descent, or that He returns to heaven, or that He stops half way down, or that He stays in the air for seven years. The Lord will "descend"   meaning all the way down to the earth. As we will see in the next verse, the word "meet" will give ample support to this interpretation of the word "descend." But some teachers, such as Hal Lindsey, would not agree. He wrote,

"It's obvious from these verses [1 Thess. 4:15 17] and from others that Paul predicts a time when Jesus will raise the bodies of dead believers and simultaneously change living believers to immortals. The word for 'caught up' actually means to 'snatch up,' and that's why I like to call this marvelous coming event 'The Great Snatch'! It's usually referred to as the 'Rapture,' from the Latin word rapare, which means to 'take away' or 'snatch out.'
"Why would Jesus promise that a special group of His people would be taken from earth to heaven without first dying as millions of other believers have done? The simple, wonderful answer is that they will be alive when God's striving with rebellious men turns into an avalanche of judgement upon the Christ rejecting world and Satan himself   a judgement so terrible that God isn't going to let His Church go through it. This Tribulation isn't for God's people, but for those who have rejected His salvation" (2).

However, the words Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4 show our immediate destination is not heaven, but elsewhere. Scripture always states the place one is "caught up" to. For example, after being baptized by Philip, "the eunuch saw him no more" because "the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip [caught up]" and "Philip was found at Azotus" (Acts 8:38 40).

In another example, Scripture again names the destination of the one "caught up." Paul said he "knew a man in Christ [who was] caught up to the third heaven", and this man "was caught up into paradise" (2 Cor. 12:2 4).

Con't

[choobaca]

Part Four

The same Greek word for "caught up" (harpazo)is used in all three instances, and the destination in each case is stated; Gundry says the Greek language demands it. So what is the destination named for the raised and caught up saints in verse 17? Remembering that "descend" infers Jesus' total descent to the earth, we make these three points:

1. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not name heaven as our destination after we meet the Lord in the air.

2. However, it does tell us where we are caught up to: "Then we . . . shall be caught up together with them [the raised saints] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air . . ." (1 Thess. 4:17).

3. Air: "signifies the atmosphere. . . I Thess. 4:17" (3).

As Christ descends, the saints who are alive will be changed and caught up with the raised saints. Their destination at this point is not heaven or earth, but the clouds in the air. All the saints are now being either raised or changed, and then caught up together in the clouds where they all meet the Lord in the air. This description of Jesus' coming on the clouds of the sky is seen elsewhere in Scripture:

9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.(Acts 1).

30: They shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory (Mt. 24).

7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him (Rev. 1).

So after being caught up, our immediate destination is the clouds of this earth's atmosphere, not heaven or earth. But then where do we go? Remembering that the word "descend" indicates Jesus' total descent to the earth, "meet" shows that we immediately return to the earth with the Lord as He completes His descent. How do we arrive at this as Jesus' destination? By the meaning of the Greek word translated "meet", the word being found in only three instances in Scripture, thus clarifying the true meaning of the word. It means this:

"When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apantesis" (4).

Gundry adds this to the above comment:
"This connotation points toward our rising to meet Christ in order to escort Him immediately back to earth" (5).

W. E. Vine provides us with the following:

"It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary" (6).
In Acts 28:15 16, this word was used to describe Paul's arrival in Rome after being met by a group of Christians who'd gone out from there:

15: And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: . . .
16: And when we came to Rome, . . .(Acts 28).
On his way to Rome, Paul was met by brothers from Rome who'd heard he was drawing near to their city and gone out to meet him. After going out to "meet" Paul, they reversed their direction and personally escorted him into Rome. Notice that they did not escort Paul back to where he had come from; Paul did not reverse direction. The actions of the Roman Christians perfectly describes the meaning of the word translated "meet."

The second occurrence of this word is in the parables of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1 13. We quote only verses 6 7,10

6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. . . .
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut (Matt. 25).
 
The "cry" ["shout," NIV] in verse 6 parallels the shout announcing Jesus' coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. In the parable, the virgins are commanded to come out to "meet" the bridegroom. The wise virgins leave to meet Him as the unwise virgins go off to find oil. This same meaning of "meet" is seen in the wise virgins' returning with the bridegroom; they've escorted Him back to the place from which they came.

The last time this particular word translated "meet" is used is in our verse from Thessalonians. The entire body of Christ from both testaments meets the Lord in the air, reverses their direction and escorts Him back to earth to begin the millennial reign. By definition and example from Scripture, we now have a full picture of the meaning of this word. It can be summed up by this description:

1. A traveler is heading in a particular direction in order to arrive at a designated place.

2. The people residing in that place go out to meet him.

3. When they meet the traveler, they do not escort him back to the place he came from. They turn around and escort him back to where they came from.

Therefore, we could paraphrase verse 17 in this way:

"Then we who are changed shall be caught up in the clouds, together with those who were raised from the dead, to meet the Lord in the air, and as He continues His descent, we shall escort Him back to the earth from which we came, and thus we will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4 paraphrase).

Returning to the last phrase of this verse, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord," we can ask ourselves, "Where will we ever be with the Lord? Is a particular place indicated here? If we return to heaven, will we ever be there with the Lord? If we stay in the air with the Lord, will we stay there forever? If we return to earth with the Lord, will we stay there forever?" We must see that Paul didn't intend to describe a particular eternal destination here. He meant only what he wrote: we will ever be with the Lord.

Looking for a moment at a related verse from chapter 3, notice how the sense of a posttribulation gathering is again supported:

13: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints (1 Thess. 3).
Some use this verse to assert that the entire Church must have been raptured prior to Jesus' coming, in order for it to return WITH Him as one body, but this isn't a valid point. Instead, we can now understand that Jesus returns WITH the spirits of the dead saints in order to raise their bodies, and He comes FOR the living saints, in order to establish His kingdom on earth. After being gathered, all the saints are in the clouds with Jesus, and can return WITH Him.

Paul's Words Of Comfort

VERSE 18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In this final verse, Paul speaks from his strong conviction that the truth comforts. He's assured the Thessalonians that, living or dead, no one will miss out on the glorious end that the Lord has planned from the beginning. The Church now has the full picture of the events that will occur in the Day of the Lord; they are no longer ignorant about the resurrection and its place in that Day. Because they've heard the truth, they can accept that comfort and grow in it.

Gathering the results of our study to this point, we can see that at the one second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1. Christ descends from heaven, having with Him the spirits of the dead saints.

2. As He descends, the dead saints are raised and the living saints changed, and He gathers all the saints to be with Him in the clouds.

3. The newly raised saints and changed saints now turn around and all the saints escort Jesus back to the earth to begin His millennial reign.

For an Old Testament text as to where Jesus will touch down when we are gathered, see: Zec 14
 
"Study to show yourself approved unto God"

Be Blessed,
Choobaca (Frank)

[The Crusader]

Bull

The Crusader

[twobombs]

choobaca: confuzzzzing zstuff...   what are you trying to convey to me/us ?

[ollie]

Wow, did you take the time to write all this or is it cut and pasted? If so what is the site address? I didn't catch any references.

[2nd Timothy]

Hmm, I'm not sure I follow this line of teaching there Choobaca.

I find it hard to place this verse in your line of thinking.

Joh 14:2  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.
(MKJV)

This deffinately sounds like an un-earthly place to me.

Concerning the 10 Virgins parable.  From traditional Hebrew weddings, we know that the bridgroom comes to retrieve the bride and bring her back to the fathers house, where the bridgroom has prepared a room for he and his bride in his fathers house.  The bride goes out to meet him in the street at his arrival, and GOES with him back to the fathers house.  Not escort him into her house.  He waits for her our in the street.

Another thing that comes to mind are the numerous verses in Revelation that speak of those in heaven, some on thrones, some wearing crowns, wearing white robes that are cleaned and spotless.  Never seen in scripture where Angels are described have washed robes.  In chapter 19 we see the armies of heaven returning with Christ again wearing fine linen white and clean.  Again an indication of believers who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.   How do you explain these verses if we go up into the clouds and immediately return to earth to reign with Christ on earth?   Where are the mansions in heaven?  Who are these people John see's in heaven with washed robes during much of Revelation?

Luk 21:34  And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
(describing times just as things were in Noahs day)

Luk 21:35  for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
(ALL SITTING ON THE EARTH)

Luk 21:36  Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of Man.
(MKJV)

Counted worthy to escape!  AND  stand before the Son of Man.  Where is the Son of Man that we may stand before him?   Doesn't sound like earth where all those who didn't escape and are sitting earth whilest those who did escape are standing before the Son Of Man somewhere else.

Clearly difficult to squeeze these verses into a post-trib rapture, snatching away, or whatever you would like to call it.

All said in Love my brother, I just don't see it the way you describe.

Grace and Peace!

[choobaca]

Bull

The Crusader

Hi Cru,

Thx for the gracious welcome and your really nice and concise commentary.

I'm sure the "Bull" you used is short for

"Bullseye" or "A Okay" or "right on" etc etc.....Right??

Or maybe it is short for "Bullwinkle" or "Woolybully" or "Where's the beef" or "MAD COW DISEASE"
LOL.

Peace,
Your Brother Frank

PS Hint....If you seriously want to critique , refute or discuss what someone posts, do it with chapter and verse from God's Word. That will always level the playing field!
It's okay to disagree, but let's always seek for unity and not division. "Iron sharpeneth iron as one man sharpeneth another"

[choobaca]

choobaca: confuzzzzing zstuff...   what are you trying to convey to me/us ?

Hi Two,

I'm trying to convey that the rapture is doctrinal and it is sequential with the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" and those that are alive and remain". And it happens at what we call the Second Coming which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days". It also follows with "The Day of the Lord per 1 Thess 5:1.

Hope this helps. If you have a particular question on any portion of what I posted, say on. You do not have to agree, but at least you know that I believe the Coming of the Lord is "postribulational" and no one on "Church ground will be left behind.

Be Blessed,
Frank

[choobaca]

Wow, did you take the time to write all this or is it cut and pasted? If so what is the site address? I didn't catch any references.

Yes, this is a study I did a long time ago. Much has been gleaned from some good authors on the subject.I have been in Christ for about 30 plus years. When I first came to the Lord in the early seventies, I believed in a "pretrib rapture", but as I studied the Word more deeply, I came to  believe in the "postrib" view.

So I did cut and paste, but from my own gathering  thru the years. If you would like to get into it on a one on one, just email me.

pilgrom2@rochester.rr.com.

In His Service,
Frank

[choobaca]

Hmm, I'm not sure I follow this line of teaching there Choobaca.
I find it hard to place this verse in your line of thinking.

Hi 2nd Tim,

Great post. I've been thru all the texts, and will try to answer as best I can. But I am not sure just how much space I have for this message in "charaters" of type. So if it okay with you, let's just deal with one set of your texts at a time per post. Okay?

Tim wrote:

Joh 14:2  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

This deffinately sounds like an un-earthly place to me.
*********************************************************
Choobaca:

The word mansions is unfortunate to our English hearing, for it conjures up in our minds, a physical kind of house, apartment or shelter or cabin. But I do not think it is a physical dwelling place at all. Let's look at the Grk definition...

MANSIONS

mone NT:3438, primarily "a staying abiding" (akin to meno, "to abide"), denotes an "abode" (Eng., "manor," "manse," etc.), translated "mansions" in John 14:2; "abode" in v. 23. There is nothing in the word to indicate separate compartments in heaven; neither does it suggest temporary resting places on the road.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Jn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our "ABODE" with him.

Note, that the English word "Abode" in vs 23 is the same as the word for "mansions" in vs 2. (Ck Strongs or Vines)

Now to me, this conjures up a whole new way to look at Jn 14:2. Let's keep in mind the chronology here. The disciples were not born again yet for Christ had not gone to the cross yet. So this text is future in their hearing. So how does the Father and the Son make their abode in and with us? Of course....We are the Temple of the Living God and the Temple of the Holy Spirit after were saved. And so then, the "place" that Jesus prepares for us is entrance into the family  or household of God.

See:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (this is our position now)

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the "household of God";
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the "building"(this is us) fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an "habitation" of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as "lively stones" (us), are built up a "spiritual house", an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So Tim, it seems to me that the "mansion" is on a spiritual plane, and not a pysical one.
Now still reaching into the future, I feel that if our bodies now are God's Temple, then what of our New bodies that we receive when Jesus comes. It says "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is". This seems to fit Jesus words "I will come again and receive you unto my self that wher I am, ye shall be also"
Note: "Where I am"...He did not say in Heaven, for He says He is coming again...From Heaven to Earth. See parallel in Acts 1:8-11.

I hope this helps you to see how I see it.

Thx again for your reply, and I will post again on parable of the Virgins.

YBIC,
Frank (choobaca)

[serapha]

Yes, this is a study I did a long time ago. Much has been gleaned from some good authors on the subject.I have been in Christ for about 30 plus years. When I first came to the Lord in the early seventies, I believed in a "pretrib rapture", but as I studied the Word more deeply, I came to  believe in the "postrib" view.

So I did cut and paste, but from my own gathering  thru the years. If you would like to get into it on a one on one, just email me.

pilgrom2@rochester.rr.com.

In His Service,
Frank

Hello Frank!

That was an excellent presentation, and if I were using one word to describe it, it would not be "bull", but "truth".


The Bible is particularly clear that the church, the body of believers will be spared the wrath of God.  It isn't in just one passage but throughout the Old and New Testament.  

I must be one sick puppy, because it all made sense to me.  


I particulally like it when biblical passages fall right into place.



Ac 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Lu 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


But the second advent of Christ... that isn't on a cloud...

Re 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

~serapha~

[choobaca]

Hmm, I'm not sure I follow this line of teaching there Choobaca.

Tim wrote...

Concerning the 10 Virgins parable.  From traditional Hebrew weddings, we know that the bridgroom comes to retrieve the bride and bring her back to the fathers house, where the bridgroom has prepared a room for he and his bride in his fathers house.  The bride goes out to meet him in the street at his arrival, and GOES with him back to the fathers house.  Not escort him into her house.  He waits for her our in the street.

************************************************************

Choobaca.....

I agree with your thinking here with the Hebrew wedding scene. But remember, this is linear or on a horizontal plane. So the simile leaves off there. Let's look at the text......

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Note: the word "meet" in all texts(only three), states that the ones who do the meeting, are the ones who do the turning around.(see the original post) "they go forth"

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
(Wise ones are us, foolish ones are the tares or pretenders who play at Churchianity)

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(No oil= no Holy Spirit/ not saved)

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
(The Word is the "Lamp" (Psm 119:105) (the vessels are us with the HS within)

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

(midnight speaks of our darkest hour= the trib)( the cry is the same as the shout of 1 Thess 4) ( meet= they must leave there starting point)

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
(they got ready to go)

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

(OH, Oh, there is an oil crisis with the foolish ones. It's too late to be ready when He comes)

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

(He came. From where? Heaven at God's right hand. Where is He going? Back to earth (Acts 1:8-11 and 3:19-21)
Note, He continues to come. He does not return from whence He came (no text says He ever goes back to Heaven). So He meets with them, and then they change directions from whence they came. from Earth into the air, They receive new bodies, they are like Him, and they continue to Mt of Olives with Him. (Zech 14).(1 Thess 4)
Note also, that the door to salvation is shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Note, if the Church went to heaven as pretrib teaches, then how did the foolish virgins come to it's doors to seek the Lord? (pogo stick? lol)
Also note, The Lord answers them. "I know you not" From where? Heaven?? I think not. Read all of Mat 25 When He comes with all His angels. There were those He knew, and those He did not. And where does that Judgement of the nations take place? On the earth.

Again Tim. I hope you see what I see(you don't have to agree). We'll, I think we have enough here to discuss further if you like before we move on to Rev and the Luke texts. Maybe a new thread would be better? I'm going to have my handsful here I think if others have some good thoughts as you have.

Peace Bro,
Choobaca

[choobaca]

Serapha wrote...

Hello Frank!

That was an excellent presentation, and if I were using one word to describe it, it would not be "bull", but "truth".


The Bible is particularly clear that the church, the body of believers will be spared the wrath of God.  It isn't in just one passage but throughout the Old and New Testament.  

I must be one sick puppy, because it all made sense to me.  


I particulally like it when biblical passages fall right into place.

Ac 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Lu 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


But the second advent of Christ... that isn't on a cloud...

Re 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

~serapha~

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Hi Serapha,

Thx for the kind words. To Him be the Glory. I thank God that there are saints here that Love God's Word as I do.

Be Blessed,
Frank

PS read the posts from 2nd Tim and myself.