Innocent Question

[justin_teri]

This will probably be considered one of those "denominational" questions but my intent is pure. I certianly dont want to start a arguement between believers but i am curious about this topic.

I have attended more than one denomination of church in the past. One believed in gifts of the Holy Spirit as being operational still today. (speaking in tounges, prophesy, etc.) Another believed that "These things shall pass away" and are no longer valid. I have done extensive studies on the subject and wanted input from other believers as I may have overlooked something or mis-understood a passage.

At this time I will not reveal what I belive to be Biblical as to not influence the discussion. Again, please, this is not to start a denominational debate, but to gain knoledge from fellow believers with the same or with different beliefs.

Justin

[linuxgeek]

Hello my friend.

It sounds as though your question is regarding tongues and prophecy?

The bible is pretty clear on this in that some may speak in tongue and others may prophecy.  Yet the scripture is ambiguious when it comes to understanding. I think Paul explained it best when  he stated that a man speaking in tongues speaks for himself if he is not of God.

Prophecy is yet to come, tongues have already gone.

LinuxGeek

[justin_teri]

Thank You linnux for your reply. BTW is is good to still see some familiar "faces" on CUF. I have been away since Nov 2002. (formerly justinandteri). Good to be back.

Any other input from other believers?

[Sower]

This is not a "denominational" issue any longer since Charismatism has enamored the entire spectrum of denominations.

The first thing to ask is why would Paul insist that prophecies (supernatural revelation), tongues (supernatural foreign linguistic ability, not babbling) and knowledge (supernatural insight) would fail/cease/vanish way (1 Cor. 13:8) if they would never vanish away but continue until the coming of Christ?

The Bible also teaches that the Old Covenant would vanish away (Heb. 8:13) and it did. First, on the day of crucifixion.  Finally in A.D. 70, when the temple was destroyed.  Was this God's plan? Absolutely? Was the cessation of these three gifts also God's plan?  Absolutely.

When we insist that these gifts continue, it is NOT faith but unbelief.  Unbelief says "even though God says something, I will believe the opposite".  That's what Judaizers were saying in Paul's day regarding the Law of Moses (which was abolished at the Cross).  They insisted on circumcision.  Today's unbelief insists on tongues.

Next, why were tongues given in the first place?  As a SIGN to unbelieving Jews that God was at work through the apostles and their converts (Isa. 28:11-12; 1 Cor. 14:21-22).  There came a time long before A.D. 70 that the apostles turned from the unbelieving Jews to the Gentiles, and the Gospel went forth throughout the Mediterranean region. Was there any further need for tongues?

Finally, we come to the abuse of tongues in the Church at Corinth, and we find that tongues are the LEAST of the gifts, prophecy higher up, and LOVE [agape] the greatest gift.  So if you have God's supernatural love within you, what more do you need?  Again, it is unbelief.

When would these gift cease?  When the perfect and complete written Divine Revelation of God -- the Word of God was complete. Do we know it was completed?  Absolutely.  John tells us at the end of the book of Revelation (~95 A.D.).

So by the end of the first century these gifts were UNNECESSARY.  Do the Apostolic Fathers confirm this? Absolutely.  Not one of them is a prophet, or speaks in tongues, or claims Divine supernatural knowledge.  Read the writings of Polycarp and others. They faithfully quote the apostles, but never say: "Thus saith the LORD" as a prophet would.

To sum up, modern tongues are a delusion, and Charismatism is spiritual confusion. The "Toronto Blessing" is an extreme example of this.

[Allinall]

Also, keep in mind the contextual approach of the 1 Corinthians 13:8 verse Sower mentioned.  Paul had just gotten done speaking of the spiritual gifts, and then puts the love chapter in the midst of his spiritual gifts teaching.  We tend to look at just that chapter, but not that chapter in light of the flanking chapters.  Love is key.  Why?  Because we tend to focus on the message of love rather than the application of love where these gifts are concerned.  The gifts without love only sound good, and look good, but they do us no[/] good.  When mixed with love, those gifts are beneficial not only to others but to the possessor as well.  Interesting point here: love only comes from God.  It is interesting that he puts not only the emphasis of love in the middle of this gift teaching, but also the understanding that many of these gifts (those relating to continuing revelation) will pass away when that which is perfect has come.  What is that perfect thing?  I personally believe it to be the very written word of God.  He has granted us all that we now need to know in those pages.  To espouse further revelation, is cultic and highly dangerous of the "adding to" warning given in Revelation.

[Early57]

All the gifts are still for today.



1 Corinthians 13
1   Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2   And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3   And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5   Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6   Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7   Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8   Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9   For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11   When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13   And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.




9   For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Jesus has not returned yet, therefore that which is perfect has not come yet.  When we are in Heaven we will not need these three.



that which is in part shall be done away.


but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


prophecies
tongues
knowledge

If they were all to cease then I might believe that they were not for today but you have to admit we still have knowledge and it is for today so therefore the other two are also for today.

[Early57]

we are all waiting for that perfect day to come and we are no longer confined to these bodies, that day will be perfect and we will see Jesus face to face

[Sower]

Those who insist on tongues try to make the verses below refer to Christ and His Second Coming as a standard response to the truth that the "perfect" is none other than the written Word of God:

9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

First let's notice that in verse 9 Paul speaks of supernatural knowledge and supernatural prophecy. So the next verse has to be contextually related to these two gifts.  How do we relate the Second Coming within this context?  Impossible. From chapter 12 to 14 it's all about spiritual gifts, so to speak of the Second Coming right here would be simply nonsensical.

Second, Paul says "that which is perfect" -- speaking of an inanimate object -- the written Word.  If he was introducing Christ, he would say "When He who is perfect is come", but where would that leave the rest of the verse? It would make absolutely no sense.

For those who are willing to allow Scripture to interpret itself, here's what we have: (1) this epistle was written around 54 A.D. prophecy was completed by about 95 A.D. So there is a period of about 40 years in bewteen 1 Corinthians and Revelation.  (2) Therefore, prophecies were "in part" and knowledge was "in part".  All the epistles had not been written, nor the book of Revelation. (3) Therefore everything was not cyrstal clear -- "we see through a glass darkly" (v. 12). Paul says, when that which is perfect and complete is come -- the Holy Bible -- then there will be no need for bits and pieces throughout the churches.  Everything will be continous and mesh together. All the books of the Bible will complement each other.

So what do we do with "then face to face"?  Well, when you sit down with God's Word, you are face to face with God.  See Hebrews 4:12-13 for corroboration.  Also it becomes a "glass" or mirror of your soul -- it reveals your sins, your temptations, your trials, your weaknesses.  Therefore James calls it both "a glass" and "the perfect law of liberty" (Jas. 1:22-25).

Finally what should we do with "then shall I know even as I also am known". First, who knows us better than ourselves?  God. He knows us perfectly. Second, how can we know anything about God without His Word?  We can't. When shall I know God perfectly?  When I have His complete Word, and I use it diligently for (1) doctrine (2) reproof (3) correction and (4) instruction in righteousness (2 Tim .3:16).  That's how the man of God becomes "perfect" (mature in Christ, equipped by Christ, knowing the mind of Christ). The more you stay in God's Word, the more you know God.

[Early57]

Just because you cannot accept the gifts of the Spirit does not mean they are not for now.  I know that if God was going to do away with anything He is real clear about it.

There are Millions of Tongue talking, Prophecing, full of knowledge Christians out there, if you choose to not particapte with the Holy Spirit and His gifts then it is your choice.  Me I love it when God uses me in the gifts.


You'all just don't have an inkling of whats goin on and whatca missing

[asaph]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the reality of Christ in the Church.

1 Corinthians 12
1   Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

I think it is significant that God says spirituals (gifts was added by the translators) Spirituals are things that come forth of the Spirit. They are the opposite of things that come forth from the creation.

2   Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

The Corinthians used to worship and serve the creation rather than the Creator.

3   Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Speaking seems to be of import to the Holy Spirit. Either speak forth from Idols which are a part of this creation or speak as it were the very oracles of God from the Holy Spirit. In the Holy Spirit you will always glorify Jesus.

4   Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

Here gifts is in the manuscripts and these gifts are difinitely tied to the Holy Spirit.

4   Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5   And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6   And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Here it is clear that gifts, administrations, and operations all proceed from the same source the Godhead. Why would the Holy Spirit drop gifts yet continue administrations and operations? The operations and administrations are connected to the gifts and inseparable from them. When God talks of administrations He is not speaking of men keeping books and directing church affairs. He is speaking of administering the gifts within the Church to various members and operating those gifts through the members to the body of Christ. This is for the building up of the body of Christ as the next verse says.

7   But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8   For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9   To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10   To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11   But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

These verses speak of the Spirits administration of the diverse gifts to various members as He sees fit. But the purpose is to emphasize not the gifts nor the members as individuals but the Body as one. Notice:

12   For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14   For the body is not one member, but many.
15   If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16   And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17   If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18   But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19   And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20   But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21   And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22   Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23   And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24   For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25   That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26   And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

The above verses, without using the "love", are speaking of love. Chapter 13 which follows does not do away with gifts and the admins and the operations but is emphasizing the means by which we carry out the church life. God is love, everthing in His economy runs by love.

 27   Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29   Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30   Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31   But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

It's OK to desire spiritual gifts but let's love one another in the process.

1 Cor 13
12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

If Paul was speaking of the completing of the canon of scripture, well, he missed out, 'cause he was dead and buried before that happened. Paul has to be refering to the  resurrection when we receive our perfect bodies in the presence of our perfect Lord. Then tongues, and prophecies, and gifts of knowledge, etc., will no longer be needed. Thats the simplest and normal interpretation of "face to face."

May the Lord add.

asaph

[Early57]

So what do we do with "then face to face"?  Well, when you sit down with God's Word, you are face to face with God.

No, when I sit down with the written word of God I'm looking at ink and paper with a hard or soft cover, whichever one I happen to pick up.  


To set and look face to face with God is more then opening his written word,  so much so that even Moses did not look at God face to face because of God being perfect and Moses had flaws in his charecter.

[Jennifer]

It is good to ask when you are motivated by a desireto obtain knowledge.  My input is as follows:  When reading any scripture, it is dangerous to take it out of context.  In this particular case, Paul was talking about love and what he meant is that love is here to stay even into eternity.  So, in this comparison, it looks like as far as tongues are concerned, they will cease when the perfect comes (when we have finished our race and have begun the life where we shall never be sick again, never die or never need to depend on tongues to pray or prophesies to know the will of God in our lives).  Love in comparison will never cease even when the perfect comes.  I hope this helps.

[Early57]

Sower you say that paul said, well heres you exact quote

" Paul says, when that which is perfect and complete is come -- the Holy Bible -- then there will be no need for bits and pieces throughout the churches.  Everything will be continous and mesh together. All the books of the Bible will complement each other."

What Bible did you get this verse from?

[Petro]

"But when that which is perfect come"  this is the key portion of the verse, understanding this will illuminate the entire verse and passage.  

It is undeniably tied to the previous verse, which says;

1 Cor 13
9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

And although verse 8, also, reveals part of what needs to be answered;

8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


So, what is it, that will cause all these to fail or vanish away??

Every Christian who is born of God, is perfected forever, (Heb 10:14), while this is true, we truly lack the thing, which would show this perfection evidence to this world, and  to others, so what is it we lack..

Th Apostle spoke of something which we lack;

1 Th 3
10  Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

So, what is it??

It must be love; in fact it almost has to be perfect love;

I am enclined to think it is,  love.

Notice:

1 Jhn 4
16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19  We love him, because he first loved us.

Grace, is Gods never ending love, He loves to love and be loved, and what He is doing in saving a people for himself from condemned men, shows His love for the best of His creation.

Maybe I am wrong, but the evidence seems to piont in that direction;

but concerning the gifts, the apostles goes on to say;  forbid not to speak in tongues, which he goes to state, this is a commandment of the Lord (1 Cor 14:39), and let the spirit of the prophets be subject to the prophets  (1 Cor 14:32)

Wether gifts have ceased or not; one thing is evident, there is no one healing like Jesus healed, prophecying has not** ended, speaking in a language which required interpretation is not necessary, but nevertheless , it is not to be forbidden.

** Prophecying is simply giving out the Word of the Gospel of God, it has built in elements of prophecy.

Yet, of the other gifts, there are those who possess faith, more so than others, discernment of spirits is necessary, otherwise the church would fall into heresy, and there is much evidence there are those who possess discernment of spirits, who give the alarm quickly to the body, the word of wisdom seems to exist, others possess understanding, working of miracles is not evident, is it because of lack faith we do not see this gift today?? I can't answer this..

But what is evident to me is this, those that are of God, subject themselves to his word, and are obedient to it.

Love may very well be what is lacking in each of us, and without it we cannot be perfected..



Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

You'all just don't have an inkling of whats goin on and whatca missing

Early,

I don't know about that,

Once a friend envited me to a seminar at his church, and at the end of a portion of it, someone prayed from the pulpit, and everyone started praying out loud, so that I couldn't hear or understand anything, about what anybody was saying, it was like sitting in room, with everbody talking at once, a man, who was babbling to one side of me, I asked afterwards what were you saying, he answered "I don't know",, and there was a lady on the other side of my friend who was crying profusely duringg this time, and since she was friends with my friend, and he was talking to her afterwards, i asked him, why was she crying, he answered, she always does that..

So, from my perspective I guess I would have to agree with you;  I didn't know what was going on and as for missing it, I am still wondering, why I would want to do something I didn't know or understand it was I was doing..

I have often wondered if it isn't just being taken away by emotions..  I still don't know what to make of it.

Do I make any sense??

But thanks anyhow,,

Blessings,  Petro