Where does the trumpet fit into the rapture?

[Brother Love]

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« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2003, 04:58:31 PM »    

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Question: Where does the trumpet fit into the rapture?
I have tried to figure out for a long time why a trumpet is associaged with the rapture. I know we have 7 trumpets in the Revelation, But they all have their own uique Place and purpose. Where does a trumpet fit into the Rapture?
In Christ,
Rodney

Answer:
Dear Rodney,
I'm not sure just what it is that you don't understand about the trumpet in the rapture, so I'll tell you what I think. When we consider the trumpet sounding, we must realize that Paul wrote the comforting passages about it blowing to the body of Christ at Thessalonica and Corinth. 1 Th 4:13-18: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."
This whole thought was new to the Thessalonians. He had told them about many other things but not about the rapture. Notice, he says, "I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren." Since this was new, then it was not revealed in the Old Testament or Christ's Olivet discourse. Further, they seemed more concerned about the condition of their dead loved ones than a theology of eschatology. He wrote this to comfort them, "lest you sorrow as others who have no hope," so they would have hope in the resurrection of their loved ones. But Paul went further. He showed them an event where they would be united with their loved ones in the air. Notice, this hope is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again." In a similar manner, His resurrection is based on our justification. Then he described the rapture. Why does he give them this information? He wanted to comfort them, "Therefore comfort one another with these words."
The other passage about the rapture, 1 Co 15:51-54 is more important, theologically: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (I think it should be translated: in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, in the last trump), at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound (While this trumpet is sounding, actually during the last note (trump), the dead will be raised and we who remain until the coming of the Lord will be changed.), and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
This passage is more important because the whole event is called a mystery. The secret in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 is not the concept that some will not see death, for our Lord expresses this idea clearly in John 11:25-26: "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, but he who lives and believes in Me will never die." The secret is the event itself.
Now, the second coming, including the gathering of the elect, is well prophesied: Mat 24: 29-31: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The event of Mat 24 was no mystery to Paul. Let us recall here the precise definition of 'mystery.' A mustayrion is not an ambiguous or mystical revelation, but an unrevealed truth. The LXX of Dan 2:19 employs mustayrion to render the Persian (Aramaic) raz, 'secret,' in reference to Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Daniel did not receive from Nebuchadnezzar a vague or shadowy revelation of the dream. Rather, until the God of heaven revealed the secret to His prophet, the content of the dream was completely concealed to him. Likewise, the secret of the rapture was not the subject of ambiguous or shadowy revelation before Paul, but was concealed in God. This definition, of course, does not preclude the discussion of the rapture in Paul's earlier epistles to the Thessalonians, for the mustayrion of Ephesians is discussed in Romans. Since the rapture is a mustayrion, the disclosure of the church's hope prior to the revelation of the secret church through Paul is also a mystery.
We can see from the portion of scripture in 1 Thessalonians that Christ is bringing with Him those who died. He will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first. The rapture is Christ's coming and our going. We "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." We'll all be changed at the last sound of the trumpet. What an event. But although these two passages describe the rapture, they do not give us the time when it will take place. In considering the time of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, we must remember the nature of the mystery.
Since the nature of the mystery shows us that the body of Christ is never referred to in biblical prophecy prior to Paul's conversion, we can make some conclusions about when it occurs. They are: Prophecy about the people in the tribulation would not refer to the body of Christ. Prophecy about the day of the Lord would not apply to the body of Christ. Prophecy about the people under the wrath of God would not apply to the body of Christ. Therefore, the rapture, since it only applies to the body of Christ, must take place prior to the prophetic program which follows for the next 1,007 years, and the trumpet of the rapture has nothing to do with the trumpets of the tribulation.
In Christ,
Bob

[aw]

The "Last Trump" associated with the translation of saints is NOT the same as the Revelation trump.

Here is how it works: The Jews had "2" trumpet sounds when they were sojurning. The "1st" was something akin to revelry or "GET UP and Get ready." The second, which is called the "LAST" meant, MARCH! MOVE OUT!

We're outta here- in the twinkling of an eye!

In my best Keith Jackson, "Woaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Nelly!"

aw

[Ambassador4Christ]

Question: Where does the trumpet fit into the rapture?
I have tried to figure out for a long time why a trumpet is associaged with the rapture. I know we have 7 trumpets in the Revelation, But they all have their own uique Place and purpose. Where does a trumpet fit into the Rapture?
In Christ,
Rodney

Answer:
Dear Rodney,
I'm not sure just what it is that you don't understand about the trumpet in the rapture, so I'll tell you what I think. When we consider the trumpet sounding, we must realize that Paul wrote the comforting passages about it blowing to the body of Christ at Thessalonica and Corinth. 1 Th 4:13-18: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words." ...

Amen Bro

[Petro]

In the context of Mathew 24:29-31, the setting for that day when the trumpet is sounded is given.

And it includes ALL of the elect, notice the language of verse  31, where Jesus makes this very clear, and I would say since He is the one that sends forth His angels to do the gathering, he is the final authority of this matter of the rapture;

31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This agrees perfectly with 1 Th 5:2  

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

It will occur when the Lord returns at the end of the Great tribulation, which he speaks of at Mat 24.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, (Isa 11:11)

Even Joel speaks of this Day;


Joel 2
1  ........................tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3  A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4  The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5  Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6  Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7  They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8  Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9  They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10  The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11  And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12  Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13  And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14  Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15  Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16  Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17  Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18  Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19  Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

It shall be after the tribulation of those days, note;

Immediately after the tribulation of those days......And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Lord God himself shall blow the trumpet, in that day, according to the verse above.

The rapture that occurs on the earth includes ALL of Gods , elect, both in heaven and on the earth, and it is at His coming. It litterally begins with one day and ends the same day.

The prophet Zeceriah, speaks of this very Day, even at verse, His appearing;

Zec 14
5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And clearly this is speaking of the Lords return to the Mount of Olive when He will be King over all the earth.

He will fight for Israel, and save is flock at Jerusalem.

That same camp of the saints, is found at Jerusalem at the end of the 1000 years reign, when the armies of the nations come against Jerusalem for the last time. (Rev 20:9)

God in his wrath destroyed the earth in the days of Noah, with water, and yet kept Noah from the wrath, which destroyed all life on the face of the earth, when Paul spoke of being delivered from the wrath to come at 1 Th 1:10, he does not make mention of the wrath to come upon the face of the earth to try the whole earth, He speaks of the wrath of God, which shall be torment, with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
patience of the saints who are on the earth. A place prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is what we are saved from, the eternal judgement, to come.


God is well able to keep His People from His wrath, which He will pour out upon all them that destroy the earth.

And looking towards a rapture and neglecting His work which is His will for His people is to  trust more in rapture to save , rather than He Himself, which He accomplished at the croos of calvary for us.

Whether we as His people go thru the tribulation or not, His command is to abide until He returns, and labor as good stewards.  Because the fact is we do not know when He will return.  Here is the patience of the saints.

Clearly many christians are setting dates, contrary to His word.

Blessings

Petro

[Brother Love]

Good Study Petro, but I do NOT agree with you, Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Rapture.

Brother Love

[Petro]

Good Study Petro, but I do NOT agree with you, Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Rapture.

Brother Love

bro love,

Its OK...

The rapture has everything to do with the return of the Lord, and Mat 24, does also..the reason why there is confusion in the camp is because people try to figure out which trumpet in Revelation is the trumpet, which announces the Lords return.

The trumpet, does not have the same meaning to the gentile that it does to the Jew.

At the sound of the trumpet, in the OT, the people of God, knew the significance of it, God fought for them, and the promise is that He will once again come and fight as in the days of old.

We see just the judgement aspect of it, and in 2 Thes 4, and the passage does not end at verse 18, but continues into chap 5;


2 Th 5
1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

So this is the primary reason why there is no agreement on the subject.

Blessings,

Petro

The way I see it, there is no secret rapture, when He returns the whole earth will mourn..

Blessings,

Petro

[The Crusader]

I really enjoyed this study posted by A4C:

My Favorite Web-Sites And Studies
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2003, 04:58:31 PM »    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Favorite Web-Sites And Studies
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Hill's Biblical Answers
http://www.biblicalanswers.com/index.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Question: Where does the trumpet fit into the rapture?
I have tried to figure out for a long time why a trumpet is associaged with the rapture. I know we have 7 trumpets in the Revelation, But they all have their own uique Place and purpose. Where does a trumpet fit into the Rapture?
In Christ,
Rodney

Answer:
Dear Rodney,
I'm not sure just what it is that you don't understand about the trumpet in the rapture, so I'll tell you what I think. When we consider the trumpet sounding, we must realize that Paul wrote the comforting passages about it blowing to the body of Christ at Thessalonica and Corinth. 1 Th 4:13-18: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."
This whole thought was new to the Thessalonians. He had told them about many other things but not about the rapture. Notice, he says, "I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren." Since this was new, then it was not revealed in the Old Testament or Christ's Olivet discourse. Further, they seemed more concerned about the condition of their dead loved ones than a theology of eschatology. He wrote this to comfort them, "lest you sorrow as others who have no hope," so they would have hope in the resurrection of their loved ones. But Paul went further. He showed them an event where they would be united with their loved ones in the air. Notice, this hope is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again." In a similar manner, His resurrection is based on our justification. Then he described the rapture. Why does he give them this information? He wanted to comfort them, "Therefore comfort one another with these words."
The other passage about the rapture, 1 Co 15:51-54 is more important, theologically: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (I think it should be translated: in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, in the last trump), at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound (While this trumpet is sounding, actually during the last note (trump), the dead will be raised and we who remain until the coming of the Lord will be changed.), and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
This passage is more important because the whole event is called a mystery. The secret in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 is not the concept that some will not see death, for our Lord expresses this idea clearly in John 11:25-26: "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, but he who lives and believes in Me will never die." The secret is the event itself.
Now, the second coming, including the gathering of the elect, is well prophesied: Mat 24: 29-31: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The event of Mat 24 was no mystery to Paul. Let us recall here the precise definition of 'mystery.' A mustayrion is not an ambiguous or mystical revelation, but an unrevealed truth. The LXX of Dan 2:19 employs mustayrion to render the Persian (Aramaic) raz, 'secret,' in reference to Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Daniel did not receive from Nebuchadnezzar a vague or shadowy revelation of the dream. Rather, until the God of heaven revealed the secret to His prophet, the content of the dream was completely concealed to him. Likewise, the secret of the rapture was not the subject of ambiguous or shadowy revelation before Paul, but was concealed in God. This definition, of course, does not preclude the discussion of the rapture in Paul's earlier epistles to the Thessalonians, for the mustayrion of Ephesians is discussed in Romans. Since the rapture is a mustayrion, the disclosure of the church's hope prior to the revelation of the secret church through Paul is also a mystery.
We can see from the portion of scripture in 1 Thessalonians that Christ is bringing with Him those who died. He will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first. The rapture is Christ's coming and our going. We "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." We'll all be changed at the last sound of the trumpet. What an event. But although these two passages describe the rapture, they do not give us the time when it will take place. In considering the time of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, we must remember the nature of the mystery.
Since the nature of the mystery shows us that the body of Christ is never referred to in biblical prophecy prior to Paul's conversion, we can make some conclusions about when it occurs. They are: Prophecy about the people in the tribulation would not refer to the body of Christ. Prophecy about the day of the Lord would not apply to the body of Christ. Prophecy about the people under the wrath of God would not apply to the body of Christ. Therefore, the rapture, since it only applies to the body of Christ, must take place prior to the prophetic program which follows for the next 1,007 years, and the trumpet of the rapture has nothing to do with the trumpets of the tribulation.
In Christ,
Bob

Good study, I enjoyed this one, it was very helpful.

The Crusader