Explain to me how gazing upon my Savior on the cross and thanking Him for what He did for me is the same as worshipping an idol?

Are you saying that worshipping Jesus is like idol worship or are you saying that the metal or wood of which the likeness of Jesus was carved is an idol?

You better take down all your photographs, because gazing upon them and smiling at happy memories should be classified as idol worship then!!

You people are so entrenched in anti-Catholic rhetoric you don't even realize the fact that you make NO SENSE whatsoever!

Ambassador - not much of a thinker are you?

so glad you can have an original thought in your head.  again, i have not a clue what on earth you are talking about with this benny thing.  Perhaps it's an inside joke or something.

If you have something theological to add, I would be happy to chime in.

Again, typical born again christian diversion tactic.  Truth a little too much for ya?

Is there something contructive you would like to add?  I don't know who Benny Hinn is or what you are talking about, but if you have something interesting to add, go right ahead.

Typical born again christian response - avoidance and diversion

Back to the original post.  I see Christ crucified on the cross and am reminded of what He did for me.  At my Parish we have a Crucifix behind the high alter and Christ's knees are bloody and He has wounds from His scourging.  I cannot think of a better way to reflect on His true Sacrifice for me.  How easy it is to gaze upon an empty cross and not fully appreciate the pain and suffering He went through to save a lowly soul as me.

Now, just what do these verses prefigure? This is exactly how the Pope and the Magisterium work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit today.
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Now that we have a Church Hierarchy guided by the Holy Spirit, one of their primary duties is to hold periodic Church Councils. These Councils are called in order to define revealed truths in Scripture and to address rising heresy, and other problems of the time. The Councils are attended by the Pope and the Bishops.... And they are Biblical.

"Where there is no Governor, the people shall fall; but there is safety where there is much Council." Prov 11:14

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes; but he that is Wise harkens unto Councils." Prov 12:15

"Designs are brought to nothing where there is no Council; but where there are many Counselors, they are established." Prov 15:22

"Hear Council, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end." Prov 19:20

"Designs are strengthened by Councils, and wars are to be managed by governments." Prov 20:18

"Because war is managed by due ordering; and there shall be safety where there are many Councils." Prov 24:6

"Take Council, gather a Council..." Isa 16:3

"And that they had made themselves a senate house, and consulted daily three hundred and twenty men that sat in Councils always for the people, THAT THEY MIGHT DO THE THINGS THAT WERE RIGHT. And that they committed their government to One Man every year, to rule over their country, and they all obey one, and there is no envy nor jealousy among them." 1Macc 8:15-16

[Rome has truly spoken.]

Jesus Christ addressed Peter and Peter only in these two verses. He gave Peter alone, the KEYS to the Kingdom of Heaven, and the power of "Binding and Loosening" of sins, or if you prefer, the "Sacrament of Reconciliation". Clearly, when Jesus addressed Peter only, and at the same time gave him a name change from Simon to Peter, he had appointed Peter as the "prime" Apostle. Later in Matt 18:18, Jesus gave the power of "Binding and Loosening" to all of the Apostles. After Jesus had risen from the dead, He appeared to all of the Apostles and again gave them the power of "Binding and Loosening" in John 20:22-23.

To further strengthen the "Primacy of Peter" Jesus addressed him only, in John 21:15-17, when He commanded him to "Feed My Sheep". As another example, Jesus commanded Simon-Peter to strengthen his brethren in Luke 22:31-32.
Peter acknowledged his primacy, when at the Council of Jerusalem, he stood up and said, "Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through MY mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe." Acts 15:7
Peter's statement was singular in that the truth of the Gospel would come from the primacy of the Catholic Church, and that primacy is the Papacy.


"But if thy brother sin against thee, go and show him his fault, between thee and him alone. If he listen to thee, thou hast won thy brother. But if he do not listen to thee, take with thee one or two more so that on the word of two or three witnesses every word may be confirmed. And if he refuse to hear them, appeal to the CHURCH, but if he refuse to hear even the CHURCH, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound also in Heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in Heaven." Matt 18:15-18


Here, right out of Holy Scripture is an outline for a system of appeal. How do you appeal to the Church unless there is a system of arbitrators pre-existing in that Church? To whom does one appeal in civil life? We appeal to a higher court of our government. What do you suppose would have happened if our founding fathers had not set up a system of checks and balances; a system with lots of laws, but no 'hierarchy' to interpret those laws for us? What would happen if our founding fathers wrote our constitution and made no provision for a Supreme Court to have the final say on interpretation of the laws within it? What would have happened if they left it up to the people and said, "Interpret the law of the land as you see fit?" Immediately, there would be conflicts and chaos and splits in the unity of the country. Isn't this exactly what our Protestant brothers and sisters did to the 'Law of GOD', the Bible? The reformers rejected the authority of the Catholic Church and immediately there began conflicts and chaos, infighting within their ranks, and splits in the Body of Christ which number over 28,000 in Protestantism today.


Where is the 'supreme court' of Protestantism? Who or what is the authority in their ranks which arbitrate disputes in Bible interpretation? The prefigurement of final authority of such matters was recorded in detail in the Old Testament, and it fits perfectly with Papal authority and the Magisterium of today in the Catholic Church.

"The next day Moses sat in judgment for the people, who waited about him from morning until evening. When his father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people he inquired, "What sort of thing is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone while all the people have to stand about you from morning till evening?"
Moses answered his father-in-law, "THE PEOPLE COME TO ME TO CONSULT GOD. Whenever they have a disagreement, THEY COME TO ME TO HAVE ME SETTLE THE MATTER (MOSES HAD SPOKEN, THE ISSUE WAS SETTLED) BETWEEN THEM AND MAKE KNOWN TO THEM GOD'S DECISIONS AND REGULATIONS."
"You are not acting wisely," his father-in-law replied. "You will surely wear yourself out, and not only yourself but also these people with you. The task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now, listen to me, and I will give you some advice, that GOD may be with you. ACT AS THE PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVE BEFORE GOD, BRINGING TO HIM WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO SAY. ENLIGHTEN THEM IN REGARD TO THE DECISIONS AND REGULATIONS, SHOWING THEM HOW THEY ARE TO LIVE AND WHAT THEY ARE TO DO. BUT YOU SHOULD ALSO LOOK AMONG ALL THE PEOPLE FOR ABLE AND GOD-FEARING MEN, TRUSTWORTHY MEN WHO HATE DISHONEST GAIN, AND SET THEM AS OFFICERS (CARDINALS AND BISHOPS, THE MAGISTERIUM) OVER GROUPS OF THOUSANDS, OF HUNDREDS, OF FIFTIES, AND OF TENS. LET THESE MEN RENDER DECISIONS FOR THE PEOPLE IN ALL ORDINARY CASES. MORE IMPORTANT CASES THEY SHOULD REFER TO YOU (PAPAL AUTHORITY. ROME HAS SPOKEN, THE ISSUE IS SETTLED), BUT THE LESSER CASES THEY CAN SETTLE THEMSELVES. THUS YOUR BURDEN WILL BE LIGHTENED, SINCE THEY WILL BEAR IT WITH YOU. IF YOU DO THIS, WHEN GOD GIVES YOU ORDERS YOU WILL BE ABLE TO STAND THE STRAIN, AND ALL THESE PEOPLE WILL GO HOME SATISFIED."

Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. HE PICKED OUT ABLE MEN FROM ALL ISRAEL AND PUT THEM IN CHARGE OF THE PEOPLE AS OFFICERS OVER GROUPS OF THOUSANDS , OF HUNDREDS , OF FIFTIES, AND OF TENS (CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, AND BISHOPS, AS WE HAVE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY). THEY RENDERED DECISIONS FOR THE PEOPLE IN ALL ORDINARY CASES. THE MORE DIFFICULT CASES THEY REFERRED TO MOSES, BUT ALL THE LESSER CASES THEY SETTLED THEMSELVES."
Exodus 18:13-26

Rome has truly spoken.

If Exodus 18:13-26 isn't enough proof, here is another reference which reinforces it.

Moses said,
"I cannot carry all this people by myself for they are too heavy for me. If this is the way you will deal with me, then please do me the favor of killing me at once, so that I need no longer face this distress."
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Assemble for Me seventy of the elders of Israel, men you know for true elders and authorities among the people, and bring them to the Meeting Tent. When they are in place beside you, I will come down AND SPEAK WITH YOU THERE. I WILL ALSO TAKE SOME OF THE SPIRIT THAT IS ON YOU AND WILL BESTOW IT ON THEM, THAT THEY MAY SHARE THE BURDEN OF THE PEOPLE WITH YOU. YOU WILL THEN NOT HAVE TO BEAR IT BY YOURSELF."
Numbers 11:14-17

Exodus 18 and Numbers 11 depict a "type" of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church of today. We see a system of arbitration and a final authority to settle inevitable disputes which arise from time to time. We see a 'type' of the Magisterium in the seventy elders. Rome has truly spoken. The blueprint was drawn in the Old Testament.
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"Now you are the Body of Christ, member for member. And GOD indeed has placed some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly TEACHERS (The Pope is the foremost teacher); after that miracles, then gifts of healing, services of help, POWER OF ADMINISTRATION, and the speaking of various tongues." 1Cor 12:27-28

ADMINISTRATION: Management, especially of business affairs. The activity of a sovereign state in the exercise of its powers or duties. This is how one dictionary defines the word.
This is a good description of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, which certainly does include the Pope and the Magisterium, and over 3500 Bishops.

Every government, every corporation, and every institution, has a POWER OF ADMINISTRATION.
The Federal Government has an Executive Branch, a Legislative Branch, and a Judicial Branch.
Corporations have a Chief Executive Officer, a Board of Directors, and Stockholders.
Why then, should the largest and oldest institution on earth, the Catholic Church, not have a Pope, a Magisterium, and thousands of Bishops, all guided in truth by the Holy Spirit?

"If in your community there is a case at issue which proves too complicated for you to decide, in a matter of bloodshed or of civil rights or of personal injury, you shall then go up to the place which the Lord your GOD chooses, to the Levitical priests (Magisterium) or to the JUDGE (Pope) who is IN OFFICE (the Papacy) at that time. They shall study the case and then hand down to you their decision. According to this decision that they give you in the place which the Lord chooses, you shall act, BEING CAREFUL TO DO EXACTLY AS THEY DIRECT. YOU SHALL CARRY OUT THE DECISIONS WHICH THEY GIVE YOU AND THE VERDICT THEY PRONOUNCE FOR YOU, WITHOUT TURNING ASIDE TO THE RIGHT OR TO THE LEFT FROM THE DECISION THEY HAND DOWN TO YOU. ANY MAN WHO HAS THE INSOLENCE TO REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE PRIEST WHO OFFICIATES THERE IN THE MINISTRY OF THE LORD, YOUR GOD, OR TO THE JUDGE, SHALL DIE (now, Spiritual death). THUS SHALL YOU PURGE THE EVIL FROM YOUR MIDST." Deut 17:8-12

"In this breastpiece of decision you shall put the Urim and Thummim, that they may be over Aaron's heart whenever he enters the presence of the Lord. Thus HE SHALL ALWAYS BEAR THE DECISIONS FOR THE ISRAELITES OVER HIS HEART IN THE LORD'S PRESENCE."
Ex 28:30

Why on earth is this question relevant?  Both had wonderful contributions to Christ's Church, with St. Peter as the head.  Why must you choose on or the other?

GOD, who is Himself a "Father Figure", has always provided a human "Father Figure", a "Chief Shepherd", a visible leader on earth to act as a liaison between Himself and His people. In the Old Testament, His Chief Shepherds were Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and David, to name a few. In the New Testament, the "Father Figure", and "Chief Shepherd", of GOD's people, the Church, is Saint Peter. His successors down through the centuries are affectionately called, Papa, or let us use the Italian word meaning the same as father, the Pope.

"And Pharaoh (the King) said unto Joseph (a Father Figure), 'For as much as GOD has shown you all of this, there is none so discreet and wise as you are: You shall be over my house, and according to your word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than you'. And Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt'. And Pharoah took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain around his neck..."
Genesis 41:39-42
Keys have always been used as a symbol of power and authority for the Jews. He who has the key can open the locked door. He who has not the key remains locked out. The one who has the key has all authority over who enters through the locked door. If He shuts (locks), no one can open (unlock). If He opens (unlocks), no one can shut (lock).



"And to the angel of the Church at Philadelphia write: Thus says the Holy One, the True One, he who has the "Key of David". he who opens and no one shuts, and who shuts and no one opens: I know thy works. Behold, I have caused a door to be opened before thee which no one can shut, for thou hast scanty strength, and thou hast kept My Word and hast not disowned My Name." Rev 3:7-8

The "Key of David", what is the significance?

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"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power (authority) into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER (the word 'Pope' means 'Father') to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the Key of the House of David (the symbol of primacy) upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place (the Papal Office), and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel,  from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." Isaiah 22:20-24

"My servant" means "Faithful to GOD". "Eliakim" means "GOD will establish". Here we have a figure who is faithful to GOD and someone whom GOD will exalt. In several verses in Scripture, whenever this "Eliakim" is mentioned, he is also shown to be "Over the Household", 2Kings 18:18, 2Kings 18:37, 2Kings 19:2, Isaiah 36:3, Isaiah 36:22, Isaiah 37:2.
In Isaiah 36:3, he is described as being "Over the House". The Pope is certainly "Faithful to GOD", and he is "Over the House of GOD", the visible Church on earth.

So what do we have here? We have an OFFICE, a SASH, a ROBE, a THRONE, a KEY, a PEG, and a SURE PLACE.

The House of David is the Davidic Kingdom. David is a figure of Christ.

The OFFICE is the Papacy, the Holy Father, the Pope, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the House of Judah, (the Church), the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Saint Peter, the visible head of the Catholic Church on earth.

The SASH, The ROBE, the THRONE, and the KEYS are symbols of his authority.

The SASH is what separates the prime priest from the other priests,
"Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as My priest. These are the vestments they shall make; a breastpiece , an ephod, a Robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter, and a SASH." Ex 28:3-4.
"He (Aaron) shall wear the sacred linen "Tunic", with the linen drawers next to his flesh, gird himself with the linen Sash and put on a linen Miter (the Pope wears a Miter)." Lev 16:3

The ROBE symbolizes his authority as The Bishop of Rome, the Supreme Pontiff, the High Priest of the Visible Church on earth.
"As an olive tree budding forth, and a cypress tree rearing itself on high, when he put on the ROBE of Glory, and was clothed with the perfection of POWER. When he went up to the Holy Altar, he honored the vesture of Holiness. And when he took the portions out of the hands of the priests, he himself stood by the Altar. And about him was the ring of his brethren: and as the cedar planted in mount Libanus, and as branches of palm trees, they stood round about him, and all the sons of Aaron in their glory. And the Oblation of the Lord (the Holy Eucharist) was in their hands before all the Congregation (Church) of Israel. And finishing his service on the Altar, to honor the offering of the Most High King, he stretched forth his hand to make a libation, and offered the Blood of the grape (wine transformed into the Blood of Christ)." Sir 50:11-16
"Now therefore we make thee this day High Priest (Vicar of Christ) of thy nation, and that thou be called the King's friend (and he sent them a Purple ROBE, and a CROWN OF GOLD (Miter)), and that thou be of one mind with us in our affairs, and keep friendship with us." 1Macc 10:20

The THRONE is the Chair (Seat) of Saint Peter from which the Vicar of Christ proclaims to the whole world, infallible statements on faith and morals.
Moses, the Leader of GOD's chosen people had a Seat of Authority.
"The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the Chair of Moses." Matt 23:2
"This Propitiatory (Mercy Seat) you shall then place on top of the Ark. In the Ark itself you are to put the Commandments which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the Propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the Ark of the Commandments, I will tell you all of the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites (Ex-Cathedra)." Ex 25:20-22
"He took the Commandments and put them in the Ark; he placed poles alongside the Ark and set
the Propitiatory upon it." Ex 40:20
"...the Lord spoke to Moses and said to him, "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he pleases into the sanctuary, inside the veil, in front of the Propitiatory on the Ark; otherwise, when I reveal myself in a cloud above the Propitiatory, he will die (GOD will speak to His chosen Visible Leader on earth only, His Vicar)." Lev 16:2
"When Moses entered the Meeting Tent to speak with Him, he heard the voice addressing him from above the Propitiatory on the Ark of the Commandments, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him...(Ex-Cathedra)" Num 7:89
The Mercy Seat thus becomes the protector of the Ark and its contents. In the Ark were the Stone Tablets handed to Moses, Aaron's staff, and the Manna from Heaven. These are prefigurements of the New Ark of the Covenant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as she carried within her womb, the Word of GOD, the Power of GOD, and the Body of Christ, the Manna from Heaven.

The KEYS are symbolic of His Authority, and over the Binding and Loosening powers of sin, and as a symbol of discernment.

The PEG is symbolic in Hebrew tradition, as the main tent peg into which all other lines ran.

The SURE PLACE, of course, is The Vatican in Rome, the Papal Office.

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"With him is wisdom and strength. He hath counsel (the Magisterium in conjunction with the Holy Spirit) and understanding (discernment). If he pull down, there is no man that can build up. If he shuts up a man, there is none that can open (Papal authority, Rome has spoken, the matter is settled)." Job 12:13-14
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"And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this 'Rock' I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give THEE the KEYS of the Kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matt 16:18-19

CONTINUED

[Again, does this sound like "Once saved, always saved]

Continued.....

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Salvation is an ongoing process throughout our lives. It is a life long struggle.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12
This verse is in direct conflict with the notion of "Once saved, always saved".

We were saved in the past: Rom 5:1-2,8:24, Eph 2:5-8, 2Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5.

We are being saved now: Rom 5:9-10, 1Cor 1:18,15:2, Phil 2:12, 1Pet 1:8-9,2:1-2.

We will be saved in the future: Mt 10:22,24:13, Rom 13:11, 1Cor 3:12-15,5:5, 2Tim 2:11-13, Rev 21:6-7.


-----------------------------------------------------------We can lose our salvation:

Those who believe "Once saved, always saved", assume (presumption?) that they are written in the "Book of Life" (Dan 12:1) in red indelible ink, and cannot ever be removed from it no matter how much they sin.
How then could they ever explain Ex 32:33:
"The Lord answered, 'Him only who has sinned against Me will I strike out of My book'"?

Even St. Paul admitted that he could lose his salvation:
"...but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected."
1Cor 9:27

Then there is Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

"I have confidence in you the Lord, that you will not think otherwise; but he who disturbs you will bear the penalty, whoever he may be." Gal 5:10

"But that servant who knew his masters will, and did not make ready for him and did not act according to his will, will be beaten with many stripes." Luke 12:47

"You therefore, brethren, since you know this beforehand, be on your guard lest, carried away by the error of the foolish, you fall away from your own steadfastness." 2Pet 3:17
Is this "once saved, always saved"? Well then, what about those who fall into this trap?

Who are those who gloss over these verses and present a blind eye to them?
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are immorality, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, jealousies, anger, quarrels, factions, parties, envies, murders, drunkenness, carousings, and suchlike. AND CONCERNING THESE I WARN YOU, AS I HAVE WARNED YOU, THAT THEY WHO DO SUCH THINGS WILL NOT ATTAIN THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Gal 5:19-21

Again, does this sound like "Once saved, always saved"?
Who can ignore Matt 25:31-46, where the shepherd will separate the sheep from the goats and the righteous will receive their reward but the accursed will depart into the everlasting fire?
See also, Matt 6:14-15, 7:21, 24:44-51, Mark 11:26, Luke 10:16, John 14:21, Rom 11:22,
and Rev 21:8.
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Perseverance in doing the will of the Father:
This virtue will bring us to our goal:

"...but he who has persevered to the end will be saved." Matt 10:22, 24:13
Notice that these verses do not say that we are saved but that we will be saved...future tense. What does "persevered" mean? Why should anyone have to worry about perseverance if they are already saved?

"Life eternal indeed he will give to those who by patience in good works seek glory and honor and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are contentious, and who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity." Rom 2:7-8

"And in doing good, let us not grow tired; for in due time we shall reap if we do not relax." Gal 6:9

"Do not therefore, lose your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of patience that, doing the will of GOD, you may receive the promise:" Heb 10:35-36

"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been tried, he will receive the crown of life which GOD has promised to those who love Him." Jam 1:12

"But he who has looked carefully into the perfect law of liberty and has remained in it, not becoming a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, shall be blessed in his deed." Jam 1:25

"Take, brethren, as an example of labor and patience, the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord." Jam 5:10

"Therefore, brethren, strive even more by good works to make your calling and election sure. For if you do this, you will not fall into sin at any time. Indeed, in this way will be amply provided for you the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." 2Pet 1:10-11
Well, this verse makes it clear that you need good works to help you to your salvation.

"Once saved, always saved" does not look so promising anymore, does it?
"Him who overcomes I will permit to eat of the tree of life, which is the paradise of my GOD."
Rev 2:7

"Fear none of those things that you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be you faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." Rev 2:10

"And to him who overcomes, and who keeps My works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations." Rev 2:26

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."
1Cor 10:12

See also: John 15:4-10, 1Cor 15:58, Eph 4:14,6:10-17, 1Thes 3:8,5:21-22, 2Thes 2:15-17,
Heb12:1-15,13:9, Jam1:4,2:14-26, 1Pet1:4-7,5:8, Rev2:17,3:5,11-12,21,21:7
-----------------------------------------------------------For all of those who think they are "saved", I must warn them that it is a sin of presumption to believe that false Protestant invented doctrine. Show me a genuine historical document written before 1500 which documents it?

"So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
1Cor 13:13

So if we are saved by faith alone, then what is the purpose of Scripture telling us to have hope? There would be no need for hope if we are saved already. What does that verse say about love?
It says love is greater than faith. For those who say they are saved by faith alone, are they not insinuating that faith is greater than love? Aren't they ignoring both hope and love?

Since I mentioned the year 1500 above, there was a reason why I did. It was Martin Luther who "invented" the false doctrine of "Once saved, always saved", when in Romans 3:28 he added the word "alone" to his German translation of Holy Scripture. That verse then read, "...a man is justified by faith alone". This action on his part was an embarassment to the other reformers, and so you will not find that little word "alone" in Romans 3:28 in the King James or any other Protestant Bible except for his.

Here is one quote from Luther regarding "Once saved always saved",
"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly... No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."
Martin Luther, letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521

What about those verses I quoted previously regarding the command of Jesus to sin no more."

Is this the meaning of "Once saved always saved"?

Can we throw out the ten commandments now along with scores of other verses?

Not at all according to John 14:15, "If you love me you will keep my commandments".

How can anyone possibly reconcile those Words of Christ with that quote from Luther above?

Of what purpose does that verse serve with Luther's twisted theology?

What about "Thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not kill?

Shall we believe the words of Luther or the Words of GOD?

Did you know that Martin Luther wrote the obituary for his own church?

In this quote from one of his writings, he was speaking of "Saved by Faith alone (or only)".
"If this article stands, the church stands; if it collapses, the church collapses."
Martin Luther, Exposition of Psalms 130,4


Well, Martin, that 'article' of yours did not stand, but did indeed collapse.
I have shown more than ample evidence of that collapse in the verses included in this writing, soooo....?
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Interestingly, the people who believe in "Are You Saved", or "Once Saved, Always Saved", are the same people who berate the Catholic Church for canonizing saints. Now the word "Saint" simply means, a "Holy One", or a person who is in heaven. So, by believing in, "Once Saved, Always Saved", it simply means that those who believe in it are canonizing themselves. In other words, since I am "saved", "I will go to heaven, and therefore, all who are in heaven are saints, therefore I am a saint already".


"For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends."
2Corinthians 10:18
AGAIN, JESUS DID NOT DIE JUST SO WE COULD SIN.

[Are You Saved]

This is an interesting article (below) for all of you who are so sure you are going to heaven....I challenge you that if you disagree, that you show me where in the article you disagree and not just spit out your doctrine to me, which I already am thoroughly aware of....Perhaps you could quote which parts you disagree with.  I challenge you to read it.

Are You Saved?

"For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends."
2Corinthians 10:18

Some non-Catholics teach that all you have to do to achieve salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and your salvation is assured in this life. You only have to make a once in a lifetime commitment and no matter what you do for the rest of your life, you can be certain that you will go to Heaven when you die. Once you do this, it is an impossibility that you will ever lose your salvation. That train of thought, however, is not Biblical, and in reality it is a sin of presumption.
Jesus did not die just so we could sin.


Let us examine Holy Scripture and see what it has to say.

"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in your heart that GOD has raised Him from the dead, You shall be saved." Romans 10:9

"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

This is what St. Paul said. Some non-Catholics use these two verses to justify their "Once saved, always saved" belief.
But wait, Jesus Christ Himself said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

Is there a conflict here? Not at all when it is taken in context. St. Paul was speaking about the Jews and their rejection of Christ.

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'Though the number of Israelites were like the sand of the sea, ONLY A REMNANT WILL BE SAVED...'" Romans 9:27

"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to GOD on THEIR behalf is for salvation. I testify with regard to them that they have zeal for GOD, but it is NOT DISCERNING. For I bear them witness that they have zeal for GOD, but not according to knowledge; for, ignorant of the justice of GOD and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to the justice of GOD. For Christ is the consummation of the law unto justice for everyone who believes." Romans 10:1-4

St. Paul clearly said that only a remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved, as they have not rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. In these verses he addressed the Judaizers who were still clinging to the Old Covenant Jewish traditions.

However, Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:21, had spoken to all of us, and He clearly stated that we have to do the will of the Father. Doing something requires effort, or work. That work is keeping the commandments. Those who do not keep the commandments will not enter heaven.

Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved to you?"
Jesus Christ redeemed us and provided for our salvation. The Gates of Heaven were opened, but not one of us can just 'walk in' and claim residency without obeying the will of the Father.

Another verse which they use to try to support the "Are you Saved" misnomer, is John 10:28.

"And I give them everlasting life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
See also John 6:37, "And him who comes to Me I will not cast out."

Both of those verses indicate that Jesus Christ will be loyal to us and will never cast us out.

However, He left open the fact that we could simply walk away from Him by not keeping His Word.

Here is yet another verse used by those who say they are forever "saved".

"For GOD so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, that those who believe in Him may not perish, but may have life everlasting." John 3:16

It seems at first glance from that verse, that all one has to do is to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. Again, when the verse is understood from the original Greek text, this is not the case at all. When the underlying Greek wording is analyzed, their argument is lopped off from the vine as yet another fruitless branch would be.

The Greek word used here for "believe", is "Pisteuvw", or when transliterated into English is "Pisteuo". This Greek word means, to believe, to rely on, and to "obey". To "obey" involves works, which means we must bear good fruit.

You could be a branch attached to the vine, but just who is the vine dresser?

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser. Every branch in Me that bears no fruit He will take away; and every branch that bears fruit He will cleanse, that it may bear more fruit."
John 15:1-2

"For all of us must be made manifest before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil."
2Cor 5:10

See Matthew 22:8-14, the parable of the marriage feast. The one who was not dressed properly was cast into the darkness outside where there was weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

In Matthew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins. Five were not prepared for the coming of the Bridegroom (Christ) and were shut out of the marriage feast.

Then there is another parable which applies to our topic. In Matthew 13:47-50, the kingdom of heaven is likened to a net cast into the sea and gathers fish of every kind, both good and bad. The good fish are saved, but what happens to the bad ones in verses 49-50? They are cast into the furnace of fire where again there is weeping and the gnashing of teeth. All of the fish were gathered into the net, but were all of them saved from the furnace of fire?

Read about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. You probably have already noticed that both believed, but did you also notice that only one worked? What was the final end of those who did no works? See verses 45-46. Since the goats believed, why then were they not saved also?
See, you may think you are "saved", but a fruitless person is cut off. Now you can readily see that salvation depends upon each one of us and on our individual fruitful actions in a very important way.


Nothing defiled may enter the kingdom of heaven.
"And there shall not enter into it (heaven) anything defiled, nor he who practices abomination and falsehood, but only those who are written in the book of life of the Lamb." Revelation 21:27

Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved?"The people who fit this verse are not following the will of GOD, the Ten Commandments.

"He who overcomes shall possess these things, and I will be his GOD, and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly and unbelieving, and abominable and murderers, and fornicators and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, their portion shall be in the pool that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:7-8

Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved?"

Where do liars spend all eternity even if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but fail to work out their salvation by keeping the Ten Commandments? Are not "Thou shalt not lie", and "Thou shalt not kill" two of the Ten Commandments?

According to the "Once saved, always saved" group of believers, you can sin as much as you want after accepting Jesus Christ and your salvation is guaranteed, regardless.

"Why do you ask me what is good? One there who is good, and he is GOD. But if you will enter into life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS." "Which commandments?" the man asked. Jesus said, "Never murder. Never commit adultery. Never steal. Never give false testimony. Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.""
Matthew 19:17-19

These verses clearly have said that if we do not obey the commandments, we will not have (eternal) life.
So if a person who thinks he is "saved", and then lies or commits adultery, how then does he reconcile his actions with Matthew 19:17-19 and Revelation 21:7-8 and 21:27?

Jesus did cure the infirmed man at the pool in John 5:1-9, and later He told him in verse 14, "See, you are well! SIN NO MORE, THAT NOTHING WORSE BEFALL YOU."
Does that sound like, "once saved, always saved"?
Here is yet another example, the woman caught in adultery in John 8:1-10. Jesus had prevented her from being stoned to death, and in verse 11 He said, "Neither do I condemn you; GO, AND DO NOT SIN AGAIN." Again, Jesus cautioned, not to sin again.

What is the message from these two examples from John 5 and 8? What if both sinned again? In the first case it would seem that indeed, SOMETHING WORSE WOULD BEFALL THE MAN and in the second case it would be a clear disobedience by the woman to a direct command of Jesus. I repeat, does that sound like, "once saved, always saved"? No way!
"Here is the patience of the Saints, who keep the commandments of GOD, and the faith of Jesus."
Revelation 14:12

If we are "saved" already then what is the purpose of having to obey the commandments?

So, can we truthfully say we are saved? Yes, but not as some non-Catholics believe that it is a one sided process completed by Jesus Christ alone. He did His part, now it is up to each one of us to do our part by our co-operation with His unlimited sacrifice on the cross.

Nevertheless, Catholics realize that even the fulfilling of Our Lord's requirements for salvation is impossible without the free gift of His grace.

Continued below.....

For Protestant-Catholic debates:  http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=529328&NoCaches=Yes