[Pope Innocent III, A.D. 1198-1216]

What you are referring to is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church".

It's not like you are revealing some hidden secret.  It's not like you will get some "shock factor" from your little quote by Pope Saint Gregory the Great.  Want more quotes?

Pope Innocent III, A.D. 1198-1216: Ex cathedra: "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215)

Pope Boniface VIII, A.D. 1294-1303: Ex cathedra: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  The Lateran, November 14th, in our eighth year. As a perpetual memorial of this matter." (Unam Sanctam, A.D. 1302)

Pope Eugene IV, A.D. 1431-1447: Ex cathedra: "It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, or heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those abiding in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has abided in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Council of Florence, A.D. 1442)

Two of these definitions, are from Holy and Venerable Ecumenical Councils.  The Church has always held that all of the ecumenical councils are ex cathedra, infallible; (Vatican II is an exception as the Pope chose that it be only a pastoral Council; Paul VI stated that he did not promulgated it as ex cathedra; that is however the only exception to the rule.)

You have made it known to me numerous times that I am not a christian because I guess I am not a christian "like you" a born again christian.  You have called me a "joke - just like my religion"  

So what's your point here?  The majority of born again christians say the exact same thing - that ROman Catholics are not "saved".  

Was there a point somewhere in there?

I think most of the other non-Catholics on this board are already aware of your point by point definition of a Roman Catholic.  

IHM, you know my request....

Not quite sure why you find so many things so hysterical, but it sures shows a sign of spiritual immaturity, but then - I could tell that from the very first post I read from you.

I suppose you just find Catholicism hysterical, although I have this feeling that when you stand in front of the judgement seat of Christ you will not be ROTFLOL....Oh, but then again, you think your sins are "covered over" by the blood right and that you won't have to answer for them so I can see where it would be so easy for you to continually sin by showing a lack of christian charity to those on this site.

Gives me a clear image of what a born again, Bible believer's attitude is.  

 

 

[person]

Well it wasn't me who sent it to you, but for ONCE - I must (dare I say it???) AGREE with A4C!

Although - we agree from two different poles of the earth LOL!

You are right in saying this, "my conviction that there is such a thing as truth and falsehood. I'm certain that there is a right way to life and another way that leads to destruction. Being sure of this, I would be cruel and callous if I don't warn those who are walking along the wrong path. Jesus warned the people about false doctrines and false teachers. So did the apostles. So did Christians throughout the centuries. And so, by the grace of God, I shall continue to do."  I also echo your sentiments, but - as you know - I am coming from a different belief system than you.

As a Traditional Roman Catholic, I can honestly say that I don't buy into the whole "religious tolerance" either.  Yes, one must respect another person but one does not need to respect another's beliefs especially if those beliefs will lead them down the wide road to eternal hell fire and in this I mean we do not have to say, "Well leave him to his beliefs because he is happy where he is."  We have a responsibility as Christians to correct and lead and help others KNOW Christ - the RIGHT WAY!

A4C - you are right in that we do have a responsibility to humbly lead others to Christ and that's where the key lies - in humility - not out of pride, which leads the soul to destruction.

PS - I do, however, disagree with the way you handled this person's question to you.  You could have shown a little more tact.  If the person was PM'ing you, then perhaps you should have kept the exchange between you and he/she instead of humiliating the person in "public".  You showed a lack of christian charity in the way you went about this.

[NOT worshipping the wood]

Ok - we are all pretty intelligent here right?  Let's just talk plainly ok?

From what I can see there are only - what? three Catholics here - maybe four?  I recognize we are on your "turf" and respect that fact - humbly.

Since I am a devout - practicing - Roman Catholic Christian, who attends daily Mass when possible and engages in all the Sacraments pertinent to my vocation in life, I can tell all of you non-Catholics that when I am in prayer - on my knees - on the kneeler - in the Church - and I am glancing up at my Savior upon the cross - looking solemnly at His bruised and battered body - in prayer and meditation - I can honestly tell all of you - I am NOT worshipping the wood of that cross, or the plaster which Jesus was sculpted out of.

I do not say in prayer, "Grant my request oh wooden idol."  I am not trying to be flip, but you have a backwards view of our form of prayer and ways of showing devotion.  How could you possibly know if you aren't a Catholic?

I liken it to this example.  You have a dear relative that has just passed.  Your heart is aching.  You have his/her picture in a frame.  You are holding it close to you in sorrow.  You are calling to mind good times you had with this relative.  You stare at the picture some more.  You bow your head and perhaps shed a few tears.

As an outsider to the situation, would I say to myself, "this man is bordering on idolatry the way he is 'worshipping' that picture."  This sounds absurd doesn't it?  Silly even.  You aren't worshipping or honoring the metal frame.  You aren't worshipping or honoring the glass which holds the picture.  You aren't even worshipping the developed picture behind the glass.  You are recalling the memory of the person.  You are showing respect to the memory of that person you are grieving for correct?  Would it not seem completely irrational to say you are worshipping an idol?
This is exactly what you all are saying to us.  You are NOT Catholics and therefore you have no idea the state of our hearts when we are in prayer to Our Lord do you?   You should not judge what is going through our heads or hearts while in prayer.  Do you think we are so stupid as to be worshipping an idol without full knowledge of such?  Would I say to you, "Oh by the way, did you know you were just worshipping an idol while holding onto that picture earlier?"  Of course I wouldn't because it would be utterly ridiculous to even suggest such a thing!

I have read through this topic and it seems no one "has ears to hear" what we - Catholics - are telling you.  We could say the same of you with your leather-bound Bibles.  The Bible is the be-all/end-all for you Bible-Believing Protestants.  You bow in prayer with your Bible in your hands.  Are you worshiping the leather or are you speaking to your Lord?

If you are NOT Catholic - you are entitled to question something you have read or something the Church teaches.  We, who are Catholics have an obligation to explain to you said practice.  We have NO REASON to lie to you all!  Do you think we are saying to each other, "Better be careful what you say to these non-Catholics lest they find out we are idol worshippers!"  Come on!

Only God can judge the heart and only God knows where our hearts are in prayers.  You cannot possibly tell US what it is WE believe if you ARE NOT EVEN Catholic.

Until you sit in the pews at Mass daily - or until you have read the Catechism and read Sacred Scripture and are thoroughly engrained in Catholicism - do not TELL us what we believe.  Question us, certainly.  But you aren't in a position to TELL us what we believe.

I say this in all humility to you.  I have sat where you all sit - in the pews of the Baptist church and can tell you that you really will never know Catholicism unless you study Catholicism from Traditional Catholic sources.  Anything else is a twisted misconception born out of hatred.

Petro - Do you actually read what those anti-Catholic sites are telling you such and such a council said?  Or do you just copy from an anti-Catholic site and claim it to be true because some bigot says it is?  The quotes you copied from whatever anti-Catholic site - are wrong.  Anyone can go to the Catechism of the Council of Trent and do a "FInd word" and see that what you posted was out and out wrong.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/trentc.htmBut the pastor should not content himself with showing that it is lawful to have images in churches, and to pay them honour and respect, since this respect is referred to their prototypes. He should also show that the uninterrupted observance of this practice down to the present day has been attended with great advantage to the faithful, as may be seen in the work of Damascene on images, and in the seventh General Council, the second of Nice.

I could go on and DEBUNK all the other lies you posted, but I am sleepy...Anyway, anyone who wants to do a little research can go to google and find out these are lies and misquotes if they want to or they can believe years of anti-Catholic hatred if they want.  Purely their choice.  The Catechisms are all online.

[to the statue]

I still to this day find those who think Catholic worship statues is just plain silly.  

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them or Christ on the Cross.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: "‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.
When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included "his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: "In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it" (2 Chr. 3:10–14).

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

Dont foget to start your prayer with hail mary

I always do!  

[If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.]

The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.

Col 4:3
At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.
Rom 15:30
... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.

Jam 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord
Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need.

As Catholic Christians - we believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.

In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:

"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one -- qaddiysh -- to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:.

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf. Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium all agree.

This was posted for a reason.  Don't feed into it.  Only the Holy Spirit grants the graces necessary to know and believe truth.

We ought to pray for conversions and not quarrel.  This is hatred and hatred is not of God.

Remember the words of Jesus?  "Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:"  St. Matthew 5:11

It is for Jesus' sake that we "take" what we "take" from people like this.  Pray fervently friends.

This kind of post just stems from years of anti-Catholic bigotry and bias.  I actually feel really sorry for those who really are steeped in it.

Perhaps reading actual Catholic material and reading Sacred Scripture from a Catholic position will enlighten.

The word "canon" comes from the Greek word kanon meaning a standard or measuring rod.

The custom of canonization began in the early church by popular acclamation. Hence the custom of calling all the apostles "Saint."

The Roman Catholic Church since the 10th century has officially applied the standard of holiness of life to certain individuals who lived exemplary Christian lives and through a lengthy process of prayer and study have declared that the individual is in heaven.

Contrary to the belief of some, the Church does not "create" saints, but simply applies the standard of gospel holiness to those God permits the Church to know are in heaven with Him. One principle way for God to affirm the presence of an individual in heaven with Him is through the performance of miracles through the intercession of that person.

This was funny?  I wonder if my sense of humor went out with the garbage today.

Funny?  Nope.  Sad?  Very!

I get that sometimes when an honest and solid answer can't be found for miles.