[Read a good, non-prejudicial book about Luther. I bet you change your mind about that quote.]

he did bring up a few good points. Even if he did start a movement that gave raise to all forms of insanity and heresy, we should be careful on to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Read a good, non-prejudicial book about Luther.  I bet you change your mind about that quote.
THrow the whole tub and all out!  The man was a foul-mouthed, womanizing, disgusting man.

I wouldn't take a single word of what he had to say as "good points".

----->lol, actually, I am post V II  I’m VERY strongly in support of it. Someone had to fix the work of the cranky old men at Trent

Thought as much.

Tibby - What is a diet? And eating Pattern. A fast is an eating pattern, and one that is a part of the Catholics normal eating pattern.

Have you ever researched the "why" in Friday Fasting?  Perhaps you ought to.  It's nowhere near a "diet" or an "eating pattern".  

You must be post Vatican II.  LOL LOL  

Tibby - you said, "I say 1700s because while the church did split in the 1500s, it remanded very Catholic in nature until the 1700s."

I humbly disagree.  When Luther split, he dropped all the Sacraments except two.  Because he split from Holy Mother Church, he no longer had the authority to celebrate the Holy Eucharist - so when Luther split, even if he tried to make it resemble Catholism it was NOTHING of the sort.

As far as getting Prots to trace their history.  They can't do it.  You will see someone pop on here and change the subject radically to avoid this.  It's a thorn in their side and they know it just as the Scripture compilation is a thorn in their side.  NO way around it so the best way to deal with it is to avoid the topic altogether. LOL  Wait and see....

We have a proven unbroken line of succession beginning with St. Peter (I could print for everyone if they want).  The argument regarding the Church starting with Constantine is a tired, old - anti-Catholic bunch of nothingness that couldn't hold water if they tried.

I think it best to just go ahead and admit your "church" started with Luther and base an argument from there, then to try to make up some lie that your "church" started in Acts when we all know that to be false.  Look at the writings of the early Church fathers - even a few hundred years after Christ which talked about celebrating the Holy Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin etc....Prots close their eyes to these writings and pretend they don't exist.  Sad.  Very sad.

[ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakah] me.’" In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakah] you (49:." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent." Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God. Taken in part from the Catholic Answers Website]

I doubt you will read this, as you are more interested in getting "your point across" as you accused me and others of...

Do you know what it means to "worship"?  Obviously you do not.

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (hyper [beyond]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is beyond the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakah] you (49:." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Taken in part from the Catholic Answers Website

How many times need I tell you that I don't like fish, but cool drawing!! LOL

Meatless pasta will do for me or a cheese pizza!

Nope - I mean early Church history, but then again, your "church" history didn't start until the mid 1500's with a man named Luther so - you wouldn't know about what went on prior to this man right?

Volley ----->  serve

Reba - "I personaly dont like the crucifix ...  the reason HE LIVES!"

I hear that a lot and I guess coming from a certain point of view I can see why you would say that

I rejoice, as well, in the fact that Jesus Christ conquered death through the Ressucrection, but I suppose meditating on His death has a whole other impact on my personal spirituality and this is why I love the Crucufix.

There is joy - yes - in the spiritual journey, but I think remembering what He went through helps keep us focused about the horror of sin.  God bless.

[a "diet".]

Basicly, I think you need to relax. There are issue that are more important then when and how we fast. Relax, take a breath, and smile. People think Catholics arn't Christians, and you are getting upset over people who joke about diet?

Tibby - I understand your need to get them to "accept" you as a brother in Christ....I - as I explained earlier - do not particularly feel the need to "fit in" with non-Catholics.

First off, fasting and abstaining from meat on Fridays is not a "diet".   IT's a practice of the Church and has always been.

Second, Your style isn't my style.  Perhaps I don't want to "join in the fun" when the fun is at our Lord's expense.

Not upset, just neutral.  I am a teacher and educator by nature and our biggest obsticle as Catholic CHristians is to show non-Catholics what we believe and why we believe it.

I was a Fundie for over ten years, so sorry - had my fill of sarcasm at Catholic's expense - at Our Lord's expense and at Our Lady and the Saint's expense.

All is good friend.  All is good.  

PS - not everyone who comes on this board finds people like A4C funny and representative of what a "born again" christian is...Trust me on that one

[Pentecost (30/33AD)]

A4C - Are you aware that it was the ROman Catholic Church who preserved the Sacred Writings and compiled Sacred Scripture?  Perhaps you ought to thank the Roman Catholic Church for you are indebted to Her for the very Bible you read today!

Pentecost (30/33AD)
The beginning of the Church; the Church exists before a determination of a canon or a definitive list of books of what was later called the Bible. The NT was not even written yet. The Bible is the book of the Church, we are not a church of the Bible.

Melito, Bishop of Sardis (c. 170) Produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

Council of Laodicea (c. 360) A local council of the church in union with Rome produced a list of books of the Bible similar to the Council of Trent's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon.

Council of Rome (382) Local church council under the authority of Pope Damasus, (366-384) gave a complete list of canonical books of the OT and NT which is identical with the list later approved by the Council of Trent.

Council of Hippo (393) Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Council of Carthage (397) Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Pope Innocent I, Bishop of Rome, 401-417 (405) Responded to a request by Exuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, with a list of canonical books of Scripture; this list was the same as later approved by the Council of Trent.

Council of Carthage (419) Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Council of Florence, an ecumenical council (1441) Complete list of OT and NT canon was drawn up; this list later adopted by the Fathers of the Council of Trent

Council of Trent, an ecumenical council called to respond to the heresy of the Reformers (1545-1563)
The canon of OT and NT received final definitions: 45 books in the OT; 27 in the NT; "Henceforth the books of the OT and the NT, protocanonical and deuterocanonical alike, in their entirety and with all their parts, comprise the canon and are held to be of equal authority." The ancient Vulgate edition of the Bible was called the authoritative edition of the Bible.

Vatican I Council (1869-1870) Reaffirmed the decree of Trent. The Church holds the books of Holy Scripture as sacred and canonical, not because she subsequently approved them, nor because they contain revelation without error, but precisely because "having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself."

Don't read much Church history do you?  It's very obvious.

[special day of penitential]

If I might interject your joking and irreverance towards Catholic Christians and their practice of fasting and abstaining from meat on Friday.  There are others who read these posts other than the two or three of you who want to act like you are 15 years old and bully those different from you and those people may be interested in the reasons why we abstain.

"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the desert, for the space of forty days; and was tempted by the devil.  And He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, He was hungry."  (Luke 4:1-2)

Friday itself remains a special day of penitential observance throughout the year, a time when those who seek perfection will be mindful of their personal sins and the sins of mankind which they are called upon to help expiate in union with Christ Crucified;

Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday be freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ;

We shall thus freely and out of love for Christ Crucified show our solidarity with the generations of believers to whom this practice frequently became, especially in times of persecution and of great poverty, no mean evidence of fidelity in Christ and his Church.

We shall thus also remind ourselves that as Christians, although immersed in the world and sharing its life, we must preserve a saving and necessary difference from the spirit of the world. Our deliberate, personal abstinence from meat, more especially because no longer required by law, will be an outward sign of inward spiritual values that we cherish.

I expect some of you to continue your freshman-like joking and sacrilige and that's ok because I know others on here do have an interest.

[hopeful]

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Sower - have added you to my list with A4C.  Will remember you both in my nightly rosary (*gasp*)

 

Praying...



IHM, you know my request....

[Saint Pionius (died A.D. 250):]

 
Saint Pionius (died A.D. 250):
 "I am a Christian and belong to the Catholic Church.  Would to God I could persuade all of you to become Christians, for it will be the worse for you to burn eternally after death."
 
Origen (died A.D. 254):
 "Let no man deceive himself.  Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved." (In Iesu Nave homiliae)
 
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "But if any one considers these things carefully, he will need no long discourse or arguments.  The proof is simple and convincing, being summed up in a matter of fact.  The Lord says to Peter, "I say to thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.  It will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  And what thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven."  And He says to him again after the resurrection, "Feed my sheep."  It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. [...]  If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith?  If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?" (On the Unity of the Catholic Church)

 "For whereas in the Gospels, and in the epistles of the Apostles, the name of Christ is alleged for the remission of sins; it is not in such a way as that the Son alone, without the Father, or against the Father, can be of advantage to anybody; but that it might be shown to the Jews, who boasted as to their having the Father, that the Father would profit them nothing, unless they believed on the Son whom He had sent.  For they who know God the Father the Creator, ought also to know Christ the Son, lest they flatter and applaud themselves about the Father alone, without the acknowledgement of His Son, who also said, "No man cometh to the Father but by me."  But He, the same, sets forth that it is the knowledge of the two that saves, when he says, "And this is life eternal, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."  Therefore, from the preaching and the testimony of Christ Himself, the Father who sent must be known first, then afterwards Christ, who was sent, and there cannot be a hope of salvation except by knowing the two together. [...]

 "Can the power of baptism be greater or of more avail than confession, than suffering, when one confesses Christ before men and is baptized in his own blood?  And yet even this baptism does not benefit a heretic, although he has confessed Christ, and been put to death outside the Church, unless the patrons and advocates of heretics declare that the heretics who are slain in a false confession of Christ are martyrs, and assign to them the glory and the crown of martyrdom contrary to the testimony of the apostle, who says that it will profit them nothing although they were burnt and slain. [..]  Not even the baptism of a public confession and blood can profit a heretic, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Epistle LXXII)

Saint Firmilian (died A.D. 269): "What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church." (Epistle to Cyprian)

Saint John Chrysostom, Doctor, (died A.D. 407): "We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith." (De Capto Eutropia)

"We should mourn for those who are dying without the Faith. [...]  And well should the pagan weep and lament who, not knowing God, goes straight to punishment when he dies!" (On the Consolation of Death)

Saint Gaudentius of Brescia (died A.D. 410): "It is certain that all men of Noah's time perished, except those in the Ark, which was a figure of the Church.  Likewise, they cannot in any way now be saved who are aliens from the Apostolic faith and the Catholic Church." (De Lect. Evangel.)

 The XII Council of Carthage, A.D. 419: "Canon LVII.  Those who as were baptized by the Donatists, and not yet being able to know the pernicious character of their error, and afterward when they had come to the use of reason, had received the knowledge of the truth, abhorred their former error, [...] having anathematized their error may be received by the imposition of the hand into the one Church, the pillar as it is called, and the one mother of all Christians, where all these sacraments are received unto salvation and everlasting life; even the same sacraments which obtain for those persevering in heresy the heavy penalty of damnation.  So that which to those who are in the truth lighteneth to the obtaining of eternal life, the same to them who are in error tends but to darkness and damnation."
 
Saint Jerome, Doctor, (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter.  For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built.  This is the house where alone can the paschal lamb be rightly eaten.  This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails." (Letter to Pope Damasus)

 ““Behold we have left all thing and have followed thee. [...]  shall possess life everlasting.” (S. Matthew 19:27-29) [...]  He said not: “You who have left all things;” for even the philosopher Crates did this, and many others have despised riches; but: “You who have followed me;” which applies to the Apostles and all the Faithful.” (Homily on St. Matthew)
 
Athanasian Creed circa A.D. 420: "Quiscumque vult salvus esse, * ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem: quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, * absque dubio in aeternum peribit. [...]  Haec est fides catholica, * quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit." (Roman Breviary, Sunday Prime, 1950)  (D39):"Whoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith, which unless each one preserves whole and inviolate, without doubt he will perish everlastingly. [...]  This is the Catholic faith, which unless each one believes faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

 Saint Augustine, Doctor, (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church.  Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation.  One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermon to the People of Caesaria)

  ""But I say," adds he, "have they not heard?  "Yea, verily; their sounds went out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.""  Before, however, all this had been accomplished, before the actual preaching of the gospel reaches the ends of all the earth - because there are some remote nations still (although it is said that they are very few) to whom the preached gospel has not found its way, - what must human nature do, or what has it done - for it has either not heard that all this was to take place, or has not yet learned that it was accomplished - but believe in God who made heaven and earth, by whom also it perceived by nature that it had been created, and lead a right life, and thus accomplish His will, uninstructed with any faith in the death and resurrection of Christ?  Well, if this could have been done, or can still be done, then for my part I have to say what the apostle said in regard to the law: "Then Christ died in vain."  For if he said this about the law, which only the nation of the Jews received, how much more justly may it be said of the law of nature, which the whole human race has received, "If righteousness come by nature, then Christ died in vain."  If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath - in a word, from punishment - except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ." (On Nature and Grace)

 Need more?

Oh good.  Thanks A4C - I forgot that one

Saint Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (died A.D. 107):
 "Let no man deceive himself.  Unless he believes that Christ Jesus has lived in the flesh, and shall confess His cross and passion, and the blood which He shed for the salvation of the world, he shall not attain eternal life, whether he be a king, or a priest, or a ruler, or a private person, a master or a servant, a man or a woman." (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans)
 
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the Bishop.  And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.  Do not err, my brethren.  If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ. (Epistle to the Philadelphians)

 Saint Justin Martyr (died A.D. 165):
 "And you deceive yourselves while you fancy that, because you are the seed of Abraham after the flesh, therefore you shall fully inherit the good things announced to be bestowed by God through Christ.  For no one, not even one of them, has anything to look for, but only those who in mind are assimilated to the faith of Abraham, and who have recognised all the mysteries.  [...]  So that it becomes you to eradicate this hope from your souls, and hasten to know in what way forgiveness of sins, and a hope of inheriting the promised good things, shall be yours.  But there is no other way than this, - to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest to live sinless lives. [...]

 "Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall not be saved." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew.)

 Saint Martial of Limoges (died A.D. 165):
 "All who do not confess Christ to be true God shall go into eternal fire."
 
Saint Theophilus of Antioch (died A.D. 181):
 "And as, again, there are other islands, rocky and without water, and barren, and infested by wild beasts, and uninhabitable, and serving only to injure navigators and the storm-tossed, on which ships are wrecked, and those driven among them perish, - so there are doctrines of error - I mean heresies - which destroy those who approach them.  For they are not guided by the word of truth; but as pirates, when they have filled their vessels, drive them on the fore-mentioned places, that they may spoil them: so also it happens in the case of those who err from the truth, that they are all totally ruined by their error." (To Autolyctus)

 Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202):
 "Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others [heretics] which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money in a bank,] lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life.  For she is the entrance to life; all others are thiefs and robbers.  On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. [...]

Lactantius (died A.D. 310):
 "It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship.  This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation.  No one ought to flatter himself with persevering strife.  For the contest is respecting life and salvation, which, unless it is carefully and diligently kept in view, will be lost and extinguished." (The Divine Institutes)

 The Roman Emperor Constantine converts to the Faith, to be followed by many of his citizens.  The heretics are outlawed and Catholicism becomes the official religion of the Empire.  Gradually nearly all of Europe is converted to the Faith and the Holy Roman Empire begins to emerge.  The dogma of salvation is quite safe during this period.
 
Pope Saint Sylvester I, A.D. 314-335: Council of Nicea (first ecumenical council) A.D. 325: "Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them otherwise than it should be, let him change it and order it, as seemeth to him fit; for he is the father of all, and they are his sons.  And although the Archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power, just as he who holds the seat of Rome is the head and prince of all patriarchs; inasmuch as he is first, as was Peter, to whom power is given over all Christian princes, and over all their peoples, as he who is the Vicar of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole Christian Church, and whoever shall contradict this, is excommunicated by the synod." (Arabic Canons, Canon XXXIX)

The Synod of Laodicea, A.D. 343-381:
 "Canon XXXIV. No Christian shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to those of the heretics, or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God.  Let those who go after them be anathema."

 "Ancient Epitome of Canon XXXIV. Whosoever honours an heretical pseudo-martyr, let him be anathema."
 
First Council of Constantinople (second ecumenical council) A.D. 381:
 "Canon VII. Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the number of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macerdocians, Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Appolinarians, we receive upon their giving a written renunciation of their errors and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Cathoilic and Apostolic Church of God."

Saint Ambrose, Doctor, (died A.D. 397):
 "And He [Christ] affirms that they act with devilish spirit who divide the Church of God, so that he includes the heretics and schismatics of all times, to whom He denies forgiveness, for every other sin is concerned with single persons, this is a sin against all." (Concerning Repentance)

"The Lord severed the Jewish people from his kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church.  Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." (Explanation of Luke)

 ""But woe unto you who are rich!"  We may here however understand by the rich man the Jewish people, or the heretics, or at least the Pharisees, who, rejoicing in an abundance of words, and a kind of hereditary pride of eloquence, have overstepped the simplicity of true faith, and gained to themselves useless treasures." (cf. Catena Aurea by Saint Thomas Aquinas, Lk. 6:24)

 "Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church, those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father.  But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory.  For all these have fallen away from the truth.  And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the alter of God - namely, strange doctrines, - shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud.  But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell, being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and, Abiron.  But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did." (Against the Heresies)