[rod of iron]

[quote author=prophecyjax1
Look at Marvin Rosenthal--a sholar who believed pre-trib, till his buddy stated asking serious questions, and he did a 3 year investagation nd changed his view. He realized he'd been dupped into a fable.

Mike

Marvin Rosenthal, may have changed his view. But he did not change it to a mid-trib view. He changed it to a Pre- Wrath view. Which in my opinion fits perfect with scripture.
I haven't read all the post here and it is hard to just jump into the middle of things.

Quote from Paul:
Revelation chapter 12 is referring to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel. But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5), only the Church does. How can we conclude this? Once again, only the Bride of Christ has the honor of ruling with Jesus for a thousand years, and the Bride comes forth out of the Woman in travail, (the Church), not Israel. Jesus will award “His Saints,” allowing us to be next to His side, with a rod of iron, to help rule over the nations. Jesus said in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:28-30 that the twelve tribes of Israel will be ruled over. Also notice the following verses, which reveal the honor God will give us saints for being faithful.

In my opinion you are wrong in your interpretation of Revelation 12:5.  And she bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne.  

This is not speaking of the church as you have said.
This verse speaks of Jesus Christ in His incarnation was of Jewish descent (Matt.1:1; 2 Tim.2:. Despite Satan's efforts to distroy Israel and the messianic line, Jesus' birth took place as predicted by the prophets (Is. 7:14; 9:6; Mic.5:2).
rod of iron Describes Jesus' cornation as King over the nations of the world (11:15; 19:15; Ps. 2:6-9)
her Child was caught up to God. Christ's ascension is in view (acts 1:9; 2:33; Heb.1:1-3;12:2).

Quote from Paul:
So we conclude it’s the Church seen in travail during the tribulation. She will be in labor pains, and bring forth a man-child, the Bride of Christ, which is seen raptured in Revelation 12:5.

We have not came to such a conclusion. That is your false interpretation of the scriptures.

Go A4C Go

Welcome vicjr

you are both welcome

I have read the book also, And liked it that I also give it away. I buy it at www.christianbook.com for $4.99.

There is another book by the guy that changed Rosenthals thinking about the timing of the rapture, Its called The Sign by Robert Van Kampen this is a great book he goes into more detail then Rosenthal. There is a web site www.solagroup.org that has some of his stuff, and you can also buy Van Kampens book at christian book or at Rosenthals site www.zionshope.org.

Asaph, don't let the name fool you, I am a girl Drake is the name of my dog.
I am pre-wrath also, there doesn't seem to be a lot of us around or I have been going to the wrong places

Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel.

Proverbs 16:4.  The Lord has made all things for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Petro that was a good post, thanks.  I would like to add something from J.I. Packer:
You give God thanks for your conversion. Now whydo you do that? Because you know in your heart that God was entirely responsible for it. You did not save yourself; He saved you. You did not put it down to chance or accident that you came under  Christian influence when you did. You do not put it down to chance or accident that you attenred a Christian church, that you heard the Christian gospel, that you had Christian friends and, perhaps, a Christian hame, that the  Bible fell into your hands, that you saw your need of Christ and came to trust Him as your Saviour. You do not attribute your repention and believing to your own wisdom, or prudence, or sound judgment, or good sense. Perhaps, in the days when you were seekong Christ, you laboured and strove hard, read and pondered much, but all that outlay of effort did not make your conbersion your own work.
Your act of faith when you closed with Christ was yours in the sense that it was you who performed it; but that does not mean that you saved yourself.
You would never dream of dividing the credit for your salvation between God and yourself. You have never for one moment supposed that the decisive contribution to your salvation was yours and not God's. You have never told god that, while you are grateful for the means and opportunities of grace that He gave you, you realize that you have to thank, not Him, But yourself for the fact that you responded to His call. Your heart revolts at the very thought of talking to God in such terms. In fact, you thank Him no less sincerely for the gift of faith and repentance than for the gift of a Christ to trust and turn to.
You give God all the glory for all that your salvation involved, and you know that it would be blasphemy if you refused to thank Him for bringing you to faith.

asaph, are you pre-wrath?

Ok, thank you Ambassador4 christ. or what shall I call you

Michael you did not offened me ;)so there is no need to apologize to me

But I would like to know on what thread this all started so I could read it. Thanks

Michael, The Bible says:

"He that is soon angry deals foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated." Proverbs 14:17

"He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalts folly." Proverbs 14:29

"The discretion of a man defers his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression." Proverbs 19:11

"Be not hasty in your spirit to be angry: for anger rests in the bosom of fools." Ecclesiastes 7:9

"He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty..." Proverbs 16:32

"A wrathful man stirs up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeases strife." Proverbs 15:18

"But now you must also put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth." Colossians 3:8

"Let all bitterness, wrath, janger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice." Ephesians 4:31

DITTO BACK AT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it seem to me that every thread I go on there is some remark about Michael, I don't know what he has done to you but I do know that he has apologies to you and others. But you will not except it, You keep it going using verses in you sarcasm knowing that you will make him mad. Why can't you except his apology and move on or at the very least keep it to one thread not the entire board. And Michael don't let anyone rent any space in your head. When you let someone anger you , you let them control you. And when you type in big bold letters people interpid it as agression. Can't we all just get alone

I believe Michael the Archangel to be the restrainer. There is, substantial evidence to identify the restrainer. He who restrains until "he be taken out of the way" is the archangel Michael. The following evidence will substantiate that fact.

(1) The archangel Michael has long been recognized by both Jewish and Christhian scholars as having a special guardian relationship to Israel ( Dan. 10:12-13). In relation to Israel, he is called "Michael, your prince" (Dan.10:21). His name means Who is like God? almost as if in cintrast to Satan who desires to be "like the Most High" )Isa. 14:14). Daniel is told that Michael is "the great prince who standteth [present continuous tense; that is , he continues to stand] for the children of thy people" (Dan. 12:1).

(2) Revelation 12 describes a war that occurs in heaven. The time for that conflict can be pinpointed at precisely the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel ( Rev. 12:6, 13-14).

(3) Speaking of this one who will hinder the Antichrist, Paul said, "only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way" (2Thess. 2:7). The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. Therefore, the one who had the job of hindering the Antichrist will step aside; that is, he will no longer be a restraint between the Antichrist and those the Antichrist is persecuting.

(4) The Bible is explicit that the archangel Michael is the personage who will step aside. Daniel records that event this way: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" ( Dan.12:1).
It is important to note when this event occurs. The preceding berse says, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious hoy mountain" (Dan. 11:45). This can only refer to the Antichrist, who will establish his headquarters between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea on the glorious mountain- Jerusalem. This occurs in the middle of the seventieth week in connection with his desecration of the temple and erection of a statue of himself.
Further, Daniel has already said that Michael will stand up during " a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." The unprecedented time of trouble can only refer to the Great Tribulation. It is at that time tant the archangel Michael will stand up.

(5) That special guardian relationship which Michael has with Israel is again underscored in a sometimes obsure comment made by Jude, the half brother of the Lord. He wrote, "Yet Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses" (Jude9).

Some clear facts begin to emerge.
a. The archangel Michael has a special guardian relationship to Israel. He has fought on her behalf in the past (Dan. 10:13,21;12:1; Jude9).

b. In the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel (the Tribulation period), there will be war in heaven. Satan and his fallen angels will be defeated by Michael and the faithful angels (Rev. 12:1), and, knowing that he has a short period of time (three and one half years), he will seek to persecute the woman (Israel) who gave physical birth to the man child (Christ, Rev.12:13). To that end, Satan will personally empower the Antichrist. The Antichrist will erect an image of himself in the temple at Jerusalem and demand that the Jews bow down to this image and worship. That event, three and one-half years into the seventieth week of Daniel, commences " the time of Jacob's trouble," or the Great Tribulation.

c. And what of Michael, the guardian and protector of Israel? What action will he take on this occasion? The apostle Paul is precise in giving an answer, and there can be no doubt that he has Daniel 12 in mind (that is, the Old Testament text which describes the same event Paul is discussing): For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (that is , the spirit of Antichrist was already present, 1 john 4:3); only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder ( that is, Michael, who restrains the power of Satan in regard to Israel, will continue to do so ) until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)
The archangel Michael will step aside, he will desist from helping Israel. That is why this period is called " the time of Jacob's trouble." That is what Daniel recorded Michael would do (Dan 12:1), and that is precisely what Paul affirmed (2 Thess. 2:7). When that occurs, " then shall that wicked one [Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2Thess. 2:. That destruction will occur during the Day of the Lord. The Antichrist's coming, working, and power are detailed by Paul: "Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [ because Satan, expelled from heaven and no longer hindered by Michael , is energizing him] with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2Thess. 2:9). The explanation for Michael's inactivity on behalf of Israel- his desisting, his stepping aside-is then explained. Since Israel rejected her true Christ and refused God's truth, God will send on them strong delusion so that they will believe the lie and accept the false Christ. 2 Thess 2:10-12
The strong delusion comes from God. It is his purifying judgment on Israel. That is why Michael will no longer hinder or hold down the wicked one; he will step aside; that is, from between Israel and Satan. The strong delusion sent by God is both a punishment for sin and a moral consequence of their rejection of the truth.
The word of God teaches that the restrainer is the archangel Michael, a faithful messenger and servant of God.
The restrainer is not taken out of the world; he simply ceases restraining. the restrainer does not cease his activity at the beginning of the seventieth week but at the midpoint.
This was taken from the book The Pre-Wrath Rapture ot the Church