Perhaps I'm simplistic...but isn't it just wonderful that He died for us, and rose to live in us?  

Ollie,

I won't go into great detail as I believe Sower has more than sufficiently covered this question, but I did want to add one point.  You asked...

Can a Christian be in error on doctrine and still be saved?

2 John 9 states: "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and Son."

This verse tells us that if one sins to where one is no longer abiding in Christ's doctrine, he no longer has God. So how can one still be saved if one doesn't have God?

This verse isn't a conditional verse, but a positional verse.  That is to say, the one who transgresses this doctrine and doesn't abide therein doesn't lose God, but never had God.

The issue is not the 5 points of Calvinism, its what did He (Calvin) teach.

Hey there Petro!

I contend that the issue isn't what Calvin taught, but what God teaches.    We engulf ourselves in the teachings of others and concern ourselves with our theological education.  We know much about the teachings of God, but do we know this at the expense of knowing the God of these teachings?  Mind you, I'm not advocating ignorance in the matter, but rather am advocating a proper perspective when faced with what any man says God meant.  Take their words, but be like the church at Berea...

The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Acts 17:10-11

If Calvin had truth in his statements it was not his truth but God's.  But we must not take that truth on the basis of Calvin's teachings.  We must accept, however, what God has said, whether it fits our education or no.  Please, understand that I do not post to argue.  I hope it doesn't come across in that fashion.

[You are not worthy.]

Re ur question and Save_4ever's about my belief in God as my personal saviour, I want to - it would be so much easy to do this and it would be comforting; however, I'm doubtful - reason points me otherwise.

Lex, the issue is not the reasons you are doubtful, but the doubt.  Each of us doubted prior to our salvation.  It is in human nature not to accept something we cannot tangibly feel or see.  There is great risk involved in accepting this comfort you are looking for.  But think about this my friend, what's the risk?  You simply lose what you've held onto.  A disbelief in your own worthiness for salvation perhaps.  Where do I get that one from?

Forrest:

Huh?! Salvation has nothing to do with being good and evil?! I think not.

Why bother with the Ten Commandments?

And what is it exactly that you need to do in order to be saved?

Here.  Let me help you with something.  You are not worthy.  Yes.  There are actually thousands of overpaid psychologists now issuing a collective gasp at this statement!    But that my friend is the whole point.  None of us will ever be worthy of this great gift.  It is, afterall, just that.  As a son, I've disobeyed my parents, broken my hand hitting a wall rather than taking my anger out on my dad, and a bevy of other sinful practices of my youth where my parents are concerned.  And yet, every Christmas, I still get a gift.  Why?  Because that's what a gift is.  It isn't earned, or purchased for one's self.  It is given.  

There are many issues out there Lex that can distract you from the main point you've come to.  Focusing on them, rather than this opportunity, would be wrong.  You said that you have reasons for disbelief.  I say that belief will explain any reason.  If you wait for the satisfaction of answers to those reasons, more reasons will arise.  If you wait until you think you may be worthy, or able to remain worthy of this salvation, more unworthiness will come to light.

I truly believe that in your reply to mine, I sensed a genuine desire to accept, yet a holding on to doubt.  Lex?  Do you believe in God?  If so, how much further would you have to go to believe God?

At the latter part of your post to Forrest, you asked:

And what is it exactly that you need to do in order to be saved?

God says, for starters, that each and every single one of us is born into one position: SINNER

Romans 3:10-12

as it is written:   "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands;no one seeks for God.  All have turned aside; together they have become worthless[/b];no one does good, not even one."

And in verse 23 of the same chapter...

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Do you believe Him?  If so, then you need to hear what He has said about the price for being in this position: DEATH

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, do you believe Him?  Death my friend is something each of us can relate to, but not all of us understand.  Death isn't ceasing to exist, but rather a separation.  Physically, one's soul and spirit are separated from their bodies when death occurs.  Spiritually, death is an eternal separation from God in a place called the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

God has said it.  Do you believe it?  Some may deny that a God of love would do such a thing.  But God is above all things holy.  Do you know what it means to be holy?  Separate.  God is set apart from sin and will not accept us without a payment for our.  But here's the great part!  The God of love paid the price for all, through His Son Jesus Christ's death on the cross[/b]:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 10:7-10

Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"  When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God paid the price!  There is no need for man's work, hence...

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

God says that salvation comes from His Son's blood-bought payment by God's grace to us and our faith in Him.  What must you do to be saved?  First, change your mind about this.  Take away your belief in your doubts and replace it with your belief in God!  Second, change your heart about this.  You've sinned and are accountable to a Holy God.  Ask His forgiveness and know that ..."he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - 1 John 1:9.  And third, change your will about this.  Accept His gift of loving salvation!

I know this has been a lengthy post, and I trust you've read through it.  You asked.  I hope you accept.

In prayer,

Kevin

[AMEN!!!]

Salvation is not based on good or bad, fair or unfair but on relationship with the Son of God.

It is not fair that I'm saved, I do not deserve it at all. I still feel like a bad person, but the facts are that I have received forgiveness and that forgiveness is completely dependent on God and not on me being a good or bad person

It is Gods Grace that saved me through the faith that he placed within me.  I excerised the faith and accepted His son the Lord Jesus and it is settled.  I did not work for His salvation that he gave to me, for if it was based on any work that I could do it would not be Grace and then I could boast about all the good things I did.  Those that work are doing good things in this world but there is no salvation for being good. there is only Salvation through Faith in Jesus and by coming to this one and only door of saving faith.  

I will not Judge the man as if He is in Heaven or Hell, Only God knows what happened at the moment of his departure.  I will say this, if the man did not receive Jesus as his Lord and savior, and only God knows for sure, then Hell would be his eternal home, so the important thing for you is to be sure you have received Salvation by the Grace of God through Faith in His Son the Lord Jesus.

One word Early57 - AMEN!!!

I debated on whether or not to pull out this soapbox...and decided it might be helpful.  Hopefully I've exercised good discernment here.

First of all, thank you for your reply S4Ever!  It gets me to thinking about that soapbox.  I've come to an understanding concerning "teachings."  If others were to put their opinion of which viewpoint I adhere to, I'm sure that the Calvinistic viewpoint would be cited, namely because of the posts I've given on the subject.  While I agree with many of the tenants with acception of irresistable grace, I still do not consider myself a Calvinist.  While I agree with the Armenian concept of free-will (per se), I don't consider myself a hybrid Calvarmenist (   )!  I rather consider myself a Biblicist.  Here in is the problem with such a statement.  Interpretation.  My understanding of scripture doesn't necessarily agree with others, and runs the risk of offending them when I say "Thus has said the Lord."  Why?  Because what He said may not agree with their theology.  But that's another soapbox  ...The thing I've come to realize, is that many of the "greats" we espouse, have this same understanding.  Calvinistic in nature, biblical in application.  Who?  Spurgeon and Edwards to name a few!  

The point I'm verbosely attempting to make is this:  God said it.  It cannot be explained adequately away with blanket statements concerning His love and death for all (which, I personally believe and agree whole heartedly with!).  And yet, He grants me choice of obedience; a choice that does, in some inexplicable way, determine my eternal standing.

Thanks guys!

[Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."]

Am i right if i say that this is unfair?

Lex,

Hello there!  Let me answer this question with God's Own words:

"For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[/b] So then it depends not on human will or exertion,but on God, who has mercy. " - Romans 9:9-13

Simply put, my friend, it's God's call.  As for those who have never heard, read Romans 1 and see what God has to say concerning them.

But, that seems to be a bit less than sufficient for this posting.  You came here asking a question about God.  Jason asked if you know God as Savior.  Can I ask that as well?  Do you?  Because if you do not my friend, the important question for you then is "What must I do to be saved?!"  And I for one, would love to tell you...

Secure from what? Secure to what? Secure in what?
From Hell?            To sin?            In a doctrine?

Jesus was never intended to be analized and disected to the point of being a lifeless doctrine. OSAS is lifeless and vain. It tries to describe an organic union by use of letters. Jesus is not the sum total of a doctrine but is a lover of our souls, and Lord of all, and is life. Jesus is greater than doctrine. The fact that people have created creeds and doctrines is evidence of insecurity. They want something to lean on for security yet the only one who can bring security is neglected. He saved us from our sin so we would not sin but have joyful fellowship with Him. Therein lies our security. Pray for me and I for you.

39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

asaph  

Hello Brother!

I just wanted to say two things about your post.  For one, you seem to be at a point that I'm at right now as well in one sense.  That point being a theocentric viewpoint, rather than a theological viewpoint.  Hairsplitting?  Not really.  A theological viewpoint tends to focus on the doctrine more than the God of the doctrine, while the theocentric viewpoint keeps God at the center of all.  Doctrine, my friend, is not only necessary, but is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16)!  The danger in our world of denominational thinking is which doctrine is right, or rather, which denomination is right, rather than by faith accepting what God has taught, and in faith applying that "doctrine" to our lives.  We must not only have doctrine, but we must follow those doctrines.  But never at the expense of the God Who gives us those doctrines.  Make sense?

It is then with that point that I come to the next.  This doctrine of eternal security is not a denominational concept my friend.  It is one espoused in scripture, by the very Savior you say we should (and rightly so) focus on.  Keep that statement in mind when I ask this question - upon whom does my salvation depend?  If it depends upon me, then my works are necessary to maintain it.  If it depends upon my God, then it depends upon His work to maintain it.  I think the major difficulty people come to in this issue, is the perceived (if not blatantly exemplified) lack of obedience.  That is, "if I'm saved, then I can sin as much as I want!"  I prefer to consider Paul's assessment of this line of thinking in Romans 6:1-2

"What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! (I prefer the KJV's "God forbid!") How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Paul goes on to relate the ineptitude of living a sinful life, when, in fact, we are dead to sin, but alive to God.  A person who loses his salvation based upon his own sinful acts must then be dead to God, but alive to his sin.  This is not what Paul is teaching!  The point is simple.  I was a sinner.  I am a sinner.  I will be a sinner until my God takes me home and glorifies me in His presence (i.e. conforms me to the image of His Son).  The only difference between me and a lost man is that I'm a sinner saved by grace!  Amen?  If so, then my sin isn't the point.  My God's grace, love, forgiveness, as well as His justice, righteousness and holiness are.  It simply comes down to a question of whether or not our focus is God-centered or man-centered.  For me, and not without great amounts of difficulty, it has become God-centered.  I trust that you too can see this, and trust in the only trustworthy Person anyone can find today.

God bless!

Oklahoma Howdy to Allinall,

Amen! All of the Glory goes to ALMIGHTY GOD.

Howdy back at ya BEP!

And AMEN!!!

Asaph,

Thank you!  I hadn't considered that passage before.  That was very insightful and very helpful.

God bless,

I'll just say this about this topic.  I've come to two scripturally undeniable truths:

1.  GOD CHOSE ME.
2.  I accepted His gift.

I've not elaborated on these two things, but if anyone wants me to, I'll be more than happy to!    However, I feel that there's a potentially more helpful truth to relay at this point.

In my past 12 years as a saved man, I've encountered many "mysteries" or antinomies in God's Word.  For one, this very topic!  The Trinity and God's sovereignty are examples of a coulple of other such mysteries.  Why are they mysterious in nature?  Because they go beyond our capability of explaining them.  Not that we don't try!  And therein lies the truth I've come to understand.  Why do we need to try?  That is, when we face something we don't understand, we naturally feel that there is a potential contradiction that must be removed.  No?  Take the Trinity.  Most here would agree that God is, in fact, one God, yet has three Persons.  Then God is both one, and three.  This appears to be contradictory; to the non-believer as fodder for their cannon, to the believer...a mystery.  The problem arises when the believer attempts to take the fodder away from the non-believer!  The point I'm trying to make is that we come to a decision: though a mystery, do I have faith in it, or do I attempt to explain it so that I can have faith in it?

This understanding was made most clear to me when reading John 6.  Christ had just fed the thousands, had preached messages that had the crowds coming back for more, and had quite a following - until He preached one message.  In this message, He relates how that God had supplied manna in the wilderness to His people, and how He (Christ) was the "bread of life."  He even elaborated by saying that unless they ate His flesh and drank His blood that they could not have eternal life!  This offended so many of them that they left.  

Here's the proverbial rub: We understand that Jesus was speaking spiritually.  In the Old Testament sacrifice at Passover, the Jewish family would offer a lamb.  The greater portion of that lamb would be taken home to be eaten on the whole by the family.  Christ was making a spiritual reference to a physical illustration as seen in reference to the manna and in practicality to the Passover.  Why do we know this?  Because we have the Gospels and Epistles to explain it to us, and the Holy Spirit to teach us.  They didn't!  What they then had...was a mystery.  It is interesting then that many left but that a few remained.  Why?  Because the few chose to believe, and have faith in that which they did not understand.  The message may have been confusing, but the Messenger had the understanding they needed.

We face issues just like this one, and either deny it because it doesn't fit our understanding, or because we feel we already have the understanding.  In my life, I came to a realization that my understanding was faulty.  In faith, I chose to seek the understanding that only comes from God.

This may not be of any help, but it is a lesson I feel that God would have me to share when we consider topics just like this one!

I neglected to enter anything here before, but figured since the boards up anew...why not?

I am a Hoosier native, happy husband of the world's most beautiful woman, father of the world's two other most beautiful girls, and hence, a future bancruptcy aspirant!  

I am blessed to serve my God in our local church as a Sunday School teacher, currently for adults, formerly for teens.  I am a believer by grace, and a Baptist by choice!

Everything else about me is quite boring so I'll just stop now...  Anywho, it's nice to be here...again!

One more thing lest my good be evil spoken of...When I mentioned the wood, hay and stubble burning away, I by no means adhere to or support any concept of a pergutory.  My God will justly deal with my worthless works, but will also honor not only the good works on my part, but the best work of His Son found in my redemption.

[once]

First of all let me say that it is good to see this place back up!  I'll admit I was a bit shocked to hear it had been hacked.  But, God is good.

I also wanted to say that I've truly enjoyed reading this passage.  It's not argumentative or defensive.  It's a relishment of God's character.  That is, after all, what this whole topic is about isn't it?  If I can lose my salvation, I can, in effect, render what God has ordained, and enacted as inept.  If that were the case, my God would be small.  Let me just say for the record - He is not.  He is infinite and worthy of praise!

I was interested in seeing the passages listed in Hebrews as support for eternal security.  One such passage I didn't see listed (though I'm getting old  ) was Hebrews 7:26-28...

"For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever."

If my sin made God's provision unaffective, then this would be an incorrect verse.  Christ must then be offered repeatedly for my sin.  His sacrifice would have been unacceptable to our holy God.  Interesting note here since Easter is coming up...Why did God raise Jesus from the dead?  As a sign of His judicial acceptance of the sacrifice Jesus made for our sin!  The judgment was death.  The result was life.  What good would a dead Savior be?  I can gladly say that my security doesn't lie in logic, or reason, but in the truth God has revealed in the Good News of His Son.

As a side bar as well, I've noted that Pilgrim has given a couple of explanations of the Hebrews 6, 10 passages.  I'll be the first to admit that I've got alot of study to do on this passage, but here's something that I've considered of late.  I personally feel that this passage is directed towards believers.  Why?  I think we tend to confuse the "judgment" and the "fiery indignation" as a direct reference to Hell.  I don't think that is what is being referred to here.  Remember that even the believer will stand before God one day and give an account of his deeds, and that those deeds of "wood, hay, and stubble" will be burned away.  I'm thinking that this is a similiar reference.  That is, the disobedient child of God may run the risk of intense judgment for their sin - but not eternal damnation by their sin.  I do believe that a believer can wilfully chose to run from God and "enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season" (Jonah - for his own selfish hatred of the Assyrian oppressors, David - for lust of Bathsheba, Annanias and Saphira - for greed and deceit)  When God choses to enact this judgment is unknown.  BTW, just as a reassurance of eternal security. When we stand before Him and are judged, the wood, hay and stubble that is burned away leaves what?  The gold, silver and precious stones!  Point being that regardless of my sin, I still have the precious gold, silver and precious stones of my Savior's blood on my life, and a sanctification of that life to go with[/b]!  Oh well, that is what I've been thinking about that part.  As for being eternally justified, sanctified, and glorified in the eyes of my God?  AMEN!!