And YOU don't understand, Sojourner, just who GIVES you the ability to ask for forgivenss. The devil? Your wonderful perfect nature? Sorry, Sojourner, but it is God who is giving you that power. Again; "No one can come the me unless the Father who sen me draws him." Since you don't understand how God draws us and how HE CAHNGES our hearts, you will then think that it's YOU YOURSELF who comes to God. In your dreams. Please refer to my last post on losing salvation and you will see why the catholics give themselves the credit for their belief instead of to the power of the Holy Spirit.

You have very little faith that the Holy Spirit can change a person, sojourner, but TREMENDOUS faith in YOUR OWN power to change yourself! Pride definitely comes from the devil, Sojourner, and you are riddled with it. The more you try to change yourself, the more pride you will accumulate because you are taking credit for your good works and ability to believe. "Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." You not only do not believe him, but you only look foolish when you disagree with him.  I feel sorry for you. But Jesus said; "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." You also disagree with him there too. Jesus's words will pass never pass away, but yours will in a heartbeat! Until you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, they can NEVER be taken away.  You will continue to be trapped in your pride forever. Only His death can take away your sins, not you yourself. JESUS gets the credit for taking away your sins, NOT you. Until you understand that, you have nothing wise to say.

That is simply a blatant lie, Sojourner. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus! He was the ONLY member of his group who did. Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, unless A MAN (not a group) is born of water and the spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Paul also says this when he says; "The MAN without the spirit cannot accept the things that come from the spirit of god, for they are foolishenss to him, and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned. Your made-up gospel is very creative but coming from your imagination instead of the bible. I DEFINITELY believe the bible before I believe you!  

So Sower, when Paul said: "For the good that i WANT to do I CANNOT carry out" what he really meant was; "for the good that I CAN do, i don't WANT to carry out"? Why do you twist his words 360 degrees?

Sojourner,
You have a lot to learn. I thought the way you did for most of my life. I wanted to believe the bible but COULD NOT. It made no sense to me. Then when i was born again of the Spirit, instantly, I kew that every word in the bible was the truth. FREE WILL? Hardly. Paul did NOT wake up one day and DECIDE TO believe. BELIEF IS A GIFT FROM GOD, SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST. You boast about your ability to believe because you think it comes from you! You couldn't be farther from the truth.

I was just watching the movie "Sargeant York" where the exact same thing happened to him. He had wanted to believe but could not until he was born again of the Holy Sprit. Then he knew that every word in the bible was the truth. The same thing happened to Paul, Peter, and the rest of the apostles. Read your bible to understand what it means to be born from above. Then you will understand what Jesus means by "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." AND, "Unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven." And "A man WITHOUT THE SPIRIT cannot accept the things that come from God..." AND  "but the mind controlled by the spirit is life and peace." I can always spot the born again believers from the "Christians" who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me" because they give credit to their ability to believe to their OWN FREE WILL, instead of to the spirit of God. Boasting is alive and well in you, sojourner.

I think one of the biggest reasons you guys believe you have free will is because you think that the thoughts that are inside your head are coming from you! You do not realize that GOD hardens hearts or has mercy on hearts. What do you think that means? "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." If our hearts are not coming from the SPIRIT, they are coming from the desires of the flesh which comes from the DEVIL. Once the holy Spirit enters us it changes our hearts to give us a LOVE for God, not a love for our flesh. We cannot do this on our own! We cannot DECIDE to not love the desires of the flesh. If we could, we wouldn't NEED the Holy Spirit to change our hearts! The Jews tried to love God all throughout the OT but the sin living in them was stronger. ONLY when God gives us the Holy Spiirt do we have the power to reap the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. Hitler truly BELIEVED he was right! He didn't KNOW God so he couldn't understand the things of the spirit! If God were calling him, you better believe Hitler's heart would have been changed! But all Hitler could understand was the desires of the flesh which came from the devil. The devil DECEIVES us. NONE of us is above the Holy Spirit or the devil which are the two biggest powers operating in the world and NONE of us human beings is bigger than either one! That is precisely why we Christians ask GOD to overcome the devil inside of us FOR us BECAUSE WE cannot DO IT BY OURSELVES! But those who are not being drawn by God CANNOT ask God for that power because they don't UNDERSTAND or KNOW God. They think He's made-up, a fairy tale. They really BELIEVE this! It's not a choice! How can we 'DECIDE' to believe the grass is green if we see it as purple? None of us ANY choice to believe what we do not understand!

So, if we can make our own choices, then why in the heck are we not all perfect? Why does Paul say; "for what I WANT to do, I CANNOT carry out"? He of course is lying, because the rest of you are saying that he CAN carry it out, he just doesn't WANT TO! If only he had listened to you guys, he wouldn't have MADE such a statement? Do you guys even think?

HEAR WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS! Don't MAKE UP what you think it says! Paul said that he CANNOT carry it out for is it SIN living in ALL of us. Please DECIDE not have envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, gluttony, or greed. Please sell everything and give to the poor, NEVER lie, steal, hate, get angry, covet your neighbor's ANYTHING! And above all, UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING Christ said! Afterall, it's your CHOICE to UNDERSTAND Him. It's your choice to UNDERSTAND calculus, ALL of science, ALL languages, so why don't you do it? The fact that you are not perfect is NO excuse! It's YOUR FAULT if you don't understand these things! Why, we don't even NEED Christ to forgive us because we have the power to be perfect on our own! Who in the heck do you think CHANGES the way we look at things? US? Paul "suddenly" became intelligen after he met Christ because of HIS OWN FREE WILL! What an AMAZING coincidence! PAUL gets the credit for his understanding and intelligence, NOT the Holy Spirit! Again, the Holy Spirit is NOT as powerful as Paul's intelligence!  Never mind that He said that God blinds the eyes of those he wants to harden. Again, who is little bitty God that we can't OVER RIDE his Power? If he has BLINDED someone, they can still see because it's THEIR choice NOT to see, NOT God's. His blinders are really meaningless because our FREE WILL is again, MUCH stronger than the Holy Spirit and the devil. MY what power we human beings have! Our omnipotence is amazing, we just don't WANT to use it. In your dreams.  Your dreams of glory are merely dreams. Sorry. The ONLY way we are perfect before God is Christ's death on the cross. HE gets the credit for the change in our hearts, NOT OUR GLORIOUS SELVES! Those who worship themselves can give the credit for salvation to themselves. Those who worship God give Him total and COMPLETE credit to God for everything in their lives. That is truly putting their lives in God's hands, instead of their own. That is complete and total submission that ONLY comes from the Holy Spirit, not our glorious selves. Jesus who was the most perfect man whoever lived tooK NO credit HIMSELF for everything good in Him but gave it ALL to God. He KNOWS that it is God's power and GOD'S WILL that ENABLED Him to be who He was! He worshipped and honored His FATHER ABOVE ALL ELSE, INCLUDING HIMSELF! Since He HUMBLED Himself more than the rest of us, He will CLEARLY be exalted above all men! We can learn A LOT from him, if we believe His words!

Ollie,
Then you are contradicting Chris'ts words that "No one can come the me unless the father who sent me draws him." Do you believe that you can come to God if he is not drawing you? Again, who do you think is more powerful? God or yourself?

Do you think the German people in Nazi Germany had a choice to believe the Jews were good people? If so, why? who would have told them? what reason would they believe that the Jews were good if they've been told all their lives they were not? Just a guess? How is that free will? Do you believe it is just a coincidence that only the ones to whom Jesus has revealed himself understand His words? What do you think he means when he said, "the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given to you" and not those on the outside? Do you again think it's just a coincidence that those to whom Jesus gives the Holy Spirit believe Him those to whom He has not given it don't? Jesus said; "but I have chosen you out of the world." "You didn't choose me, I chose you." Do you not believe Him? Do you not believe that "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him?" Who do you think GIVES us the POWER to believe? How can a person understand what he does not understand?

I agree with you, left Coast!! Human beings know what's in their minds so they think that THEY are making their own decisions. But if God has hardened someone's heart, his decisions CANNOT come from the holy Spirit but from satan because God has not given them His power. This is why Jesus says; "I can do nothing without my father" and to Pilate; "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." At Bible study we were asked the question; "Do the people who will eventually follow the anti-christ think they are acting freely or do they know that they have been hardened by God? The answer is that of course they will think they are acting freely, just as all of us do, but "God hardens whom he wants to harden and as mercy on whom he wants to have mercy." Paul is the first one to admit that he was TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit, NOT of his own free will.

Instead of giving a rational explanation of what athiests think Michael, you replace it with an attack. Again, "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." Attacks seem to be quite easy for you, Michael. I have been posting on atheists forums for over 6 months, so I know exactly what they told me. In whose hands do you think they put their lives if they don't believe in God? the tooth fairy's? WHO'S the uneducated one?

Again, you have twisted Paul's words from; "It does NOT therefore depend on man's own desire or effort but on God's mercy" to; it DOES therefore DEPEND on man's own desire or effort and NOT on God's mercy." As Paul said in Ephesians, 2:9, faith is gift of GOD so that no man can boast. Of course you'll accuse me ot not quoting it exactly because you don't understand at ALL the spirit behind his words but only the letter. even if i quote it exactly, you don't believe it anyway!

Once again, you have shown that you twist God's word to fit your own interpretations. I agree with BEP. You have a made-up gospel and it is a waste of time to have any further discussions with you. I'm sick of listening to your attacks and accusations that others are lying while contradicting and twisting the gospel yourself. Our exchanges are over!

Wonderful poast, Ambassador!! God is responsible for ALL the good in me! Not ONE BIT comes from me!!!! Thanks so much for reminding us of that! It's so essential to know WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for the fruits of the spirit!

The war on this forum between works & faith seems to be bewteen those who have born again of the spirit and those who have been told by the catholic church that the leaders of their church are the only ones who have been born again of the spirit. One member said that we're all born again of the spirit, but only the leaders in the church are protected from error. Apparently the Holy Spirit in the rest of us isn't strong enough to "lead us into all truth." It is no coincidence that the ones who believe in works, not faith, are catholics, and the ones who don't are born again of the spirit. It's not their fault. They have been brainwashed by the catholic clergy to think that the catholic clergy is infallible, rather than the Holy Spirit inside of each individual. There will ALWAYS be unity among true born again Christians because we KNOW who our Father is and won't share His title with anyone! The catholics, however are confused about where their loyalties are which is why, on the one hand, they will say they are Christians (just like wolves in sheep's clothing do) but by their words they put their faith in the men in the church and the apostles before they put their faith in Christ. They will deny this vehemently because they know they are SUPPOSED to agree with Jesus. But in reality they look to the church for answers instead of Christ alone.

But it is not their fault. It is the clergy in the church who want them to believe that THEY are infallible and only THEY have the answers, not the spirit of Christ in each individual. This is brainwashing and it works! So many catholics feel so guilty if they disagree with the church that the are not capable of seeing that the church just MIGHT be wrong. No, that can't be! they're God! This kind of brainwashing is so insidious and dangerous which is why I feel the need to speak out against it. It leads people to works instead of grace, to see their own power as stronger than the Holy Spirit, which is actually worshiping themselves more than God. FAITH IS A GIFT OF GOD SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST. Anyone who thinks any differently is giving credit to his wonderful nature instead of to God himself, which is idol-worshiping. But it's extremely difficult, if not impossible to break the effects of brainwashing. The only way it can be done, is if God Himself is drawing people to Him instead of to the church.

In whose hands do you put your life? Yours or God's? Atheists put their lives in their own hands because they think they can do a better job of it that God can. Those who think they are saved by works also think they can do a better job than God can. They don't trust that Jesus will leave his flock to look for one last sheep, nor that he will never abandon them. Therefore, since they don't trust that God will bring them closer to him, it is then up to them to do whatever it is they think they have to do to be saved. Who decides this is anybody's guess. "Ye of little faith." This of course contradicts Paul's words; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or effort, but on God's mercy." And of course the apostle Paul must be in hell because he said; "For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good i want to do-this i keep on doing...Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!" To those who think we are saved by works, Jesus's death is not enough!  He was not only wrong, but since he's not saved by works he must also be in hell. Poor guy.

I agree, ebia. I still struggle with it. But I remember when i was broke and I saw that passage, there was such a peace that came over me! I KNEW right then and there that he would never let me starve. Lo and behold, i received a lot of money through inheritances and then met a marvelous spirit-filled Christian with whom I've shared many years of blissful marriage. Now that i have money, I find it harder to discern how much to give away and how much to keep for tomorrow. But when God gave the Jews manna from heaven he specifically told them to eat all of it everyday so that every night they had to depend on God for their needs instead of storing it up in barns. But then many Christians say that we are to save some money because that is how God is providing for us. But Jesus also says that the man who hoards his money, possession, etc. in barns has nothing if he doesn't have the kingdom of God. Since I have the kingdom of God, then I personally am letting the Holy Spirit show me what he wants me to do. I know that I am willing to give it all away but want to make sure that's from the spirit instead of obeying the letter of the law because my savings might be how God is providing for me!

Me too, Gracey. I find it interesting that whatever I need for each day comes into my mind in quotes from scripture. That's how God always gives us what we need! I also take solace in proverbs, 12:21, "No harm befalls the righteous but the wicked have their fill of trouble." I feel bad for the wicked but take comfort in His grace.