suzi
With experience with 4 children I know babies know right from wrong.
When a baby is doing something wrong and you stand up, they will run away from what they are doing. And if it is very wrong they will run away holding the back of their diaper. They know the swat is coming.
And according to:
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Babies break the law.  They are estranged from God.
This is hard to deal with but it is the word of God.
Yes we know sin through the law and a parent should teach their child that law.
“Mommy I want, I want, gimmy, gimmy.” Greed, covetness, etc.
Now I’ve got to go I’ve got an appointment with my son.  

I would really like more time to study these verses in depth. But that could take years.
However I don’t think you are on the right track. It could be that I just don’t understand you. For instance to be lead by God and free choice are contradictions. Or were you saying God leads us to steal by our free choice. I doubt that is what you meant so it is probably my failure to understand you.
I usually write everything into my word program and then let it spell check for me as I am slightly ydslexic and I speel    poorly also. Plus my fingers often hit mnore than one key.  
When we be come saved we receive the Holy Ghost. It dwells within us.

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Now if you blaspheme your very salvation where does that put you?
The candlestick represents churches, not Gods eternal church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), but rather the corporal churches.

Revelation 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
I will have to chew on your word for awhile.  

O.K.

I really couldn't understand much of what you said John, are you saying our salvation is based on keeping Gods commandments?

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Keeping Gods commandments is a work.

I’ve said this before I had four babies --- You bet they sin.
Think about this, is anger a sin, jealousy, greed, covetness, you know the sins babies do.
But don’t take my word for it, take a look at the bible.
Before we become saved we are counted among the wicked.

 Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
 Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Unfortunately we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born.
I feel that one of the greatest sins committed in churches is putting children in a nursery away from the saving word of God.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus rebuked the disciples for not allowing the children to come close to Him.

Mark 10:13  And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
Mark 10:14  But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Gods kingdom is made up of all sorts of people, all ages, all colors, all levels mental ability, and both sexes.
John the Baptist was six months in the womb when Mary came to his home pregnant with the Lord. John leaped for joy, meaning he became saved.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

I don’t know where the idea came from that David was talking about the grave.
I always thought that he quit his fast and did not morn because he knew he would see his son in heaven.
David knew the gospel.
Psalms 51:14  Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

John
You’re a bit of a different story. You seem somewhat confused.
Being born again does not mean keeping Gods laws.
If you read my previous post you’ll see that salvation depends on God making us into an entirely different creature. That is what it means to be born again.
None of us ever contributed any thing to our birth we didn’t get our parents together we didn’t tell God, “why don’t you send me to that family,” we contributed nothing to our birth on this earth.
God uses this concept of birth as another way to explain the change he makes to us:

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Many people today claim that they are born again believers but they don’t know what that really means. They feel they are born again because they chose to be. You cannot choose to be born.
It is important to understand the meaning of the word water in verse 5.
Many people feel that water baptism is a requirement for salvation. Again that would be a work. And again such a gospel would not be available to everyone, for instance someone on their deathbed or in a dungeon may not even have water available to them.
The water spoken of in John 3:5 is not literal water. Water is a word that is often used in the bible to symbolize the Gospel. It is called parabolic language.
Jesus spoke in parables. And many parables are clearly explained in the bible. Yet many parables have been left for us to search out. The understanding is always found in the bible.
When John the Baptist was in the wilderness baptizing and Jesus came, he called Jesus a lamb. He wasn’t claiming Jesus was an animal this was parabolic language that Jesus would be the sacrifice for our sins.

 John 1:36  And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
 
Most believers understand this parabolic language is possible through an understanding of other verses in the bible:

Isaiah 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Going back to the water. Jesus spoke of this living water:

John 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

When saved we become witnesses for Christ. We want to tell people about the Lord. The gospel flows out of us.

Genesis 2:10  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden;

The garden was in Eden. To irrigate you bring water in to your garden, you don’t remove water to irrigate your garden. Eden was not only a real place but it is also a picture of Heaven. As the gospel goes out into the world God uses it to change the hearts of those that He intends to save. This brings people in to heaven and so the garden grows.
There are many other places in the bible that point to water as the gospel. One of my personal favorites is found in Numbers 20:11. This passage is very parabolic. (Jesus is the Rock).

Concerning Gods commandments. The entire bible is Gods commandment. And so when God changed the sabbath day it was a commandment. If you choose to follow the seventh day sabbath then you are disobeying Gods commandment.

John there is an old term from my college days; MELLOW OUT!

 

[do his commandments,]

Revelation 22:14.  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 1 John 2:3.  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments
4.  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him
 6.  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Wonderful verses. God of course gives us a way to test our salvation. …And hereby we do know that we know him…
If we have been saved it is because God has changed our heart:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Because we have a new heart we can test our salvation.
Everyone will sin, but a believer finds no pleasure in sin. A believers desire is to remove sin from their life. It is this desire we can use to test our salvation. We need to look at ourselves honestly and often.

2 Corinthians 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

It is only after God has given us a new heart that we can keep His commandment to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

No I could never do that. The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled by Christ.
Notice there is no work we can do to become saved just as there was no work to be done on the seventh day sabbath.
God changed the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday.
Unfortunately most bible translations get this wrong. But you can check it yourself with a concordance or an interlinear bible.
The sabbath was changed when Mary Magdalene went to the sepulcher after Jesus was crucified.

Matthew 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The word “sabbath” and the phrase “day of the week” come from the exact same Greek word, sabbaton sab’-bat-on.
My computer version of Strong’s  concordance gives a shortened definition, however in the book version it is identified as a plural word.
Young’s Literal Translation of the bible is the only translation of the bible I know of that gets it right:

Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Read this as: at the end of the Saturday sabbaths as we begin the first of the Sunday sabbaths…
Remember the sabbath breaker? He was gathering sticks. Gods commandment: Stone him to death.

Numbers 15:36  And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you  must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation.

Colossians 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Unclean food, new moon holydays, and the sabbath days all pointed to Jesus. He fulfilled them so we do none of them anymore.
While the Saturday sabbath was a day of no work, The Sunday sabbath is to be a day of spiritual work. Get the gospel out, visit the sick, meet with fellow believers, etc.  

If believing is a requirement for salvation than all babies would go to hell. But they do not. David said he would see his son again, but his son could not come to him he would go to his son.

If salvation is a result of our believing I would like to know how babies become saved. Is there another salvation plan for babies and others who are incapable of believing.
I don't know why you would not want to ask that question.
I've had four children I hope some day in the not too distant future to have grandchildren. It eases a parents mind to know their baby wouldn't go to hell, if something should happen, just because the baby was to young to believe.
C.H.Spurgeon did not dodge the question:
"By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way." (C.H.Spurgeon from the sermon Infant Salvation)
He not only didn't dodge the question he wrote an entire sermon about it.

If you pick and choose verses of scripture you can come up with all sorts of gospels. Even reincarnationists use the bible.
Believing is a work. That is why Paul said people could not believe until they had hear about Jesus:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus said it was Gods work that we believe:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In other words it is up to God to save us and the result of our salvation is believing.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils believe, are they saved? Of course not.
We are commanded to believe:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

If our salvation is based on our keeping Gods commandments then once again that would be a work.
And how about that idea of confessing with our mouth and believing in our heart:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For many people their entire belief that they are saved revolves around this verse of scripture. To truly believe we need a complete change of heart. This verse has a companion verse elsewhere to explain it:

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Notice that it is God that does the work.
This relationship between the two verses is similar to the relationship found in many verses of the bible. A good example is found in Deuteronomy 10:

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Are we supposed to perform open heart surgery on ourselves? We can’t cut the sin nature out of our heart. Only God can do that, so he gives us the solution:  

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

What is circumcision? It is keeping the commandments of God.

1 Corinthians 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

In our pride we like to think we have some control over our destiny. There is a little bit of a control freak in all of us.
For those of you that believe salvation is based on our believing --- WHAT HAPPENS TO A BABY IF IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO DIE?

The fact is God never created people to be lost, the opposite is true, all woulkd be saved.
However, because of Adams transgression all die.
__________________________________________

That is a very good point Petro. The man God created had no sin in him. But because of Adams transgression man is polluted, the seed of sin is in every man.
Before we are saved we are counted among the wicked. And the wicked go astray as soon as they are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
 
This is one of the main problems with the grace plus works gospels. There can be no salvation for babies unless they add to the bible what it does not say, an age of accountability.
The word “all” is a very changing word in the bible. It does not always mean every single person.
In the bible the word “all” can refer to all people or it can refer to all of a certain group of people.
For instance, to every one:

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

And references to a limited group of people:

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

This cannot be ALL of the people of Judaea, there would have been close to two million people there at that time.  Certainly not all of the Pharisees and Sadducees would have been there.
Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon on this:

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?  "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)

I’ve had four children. They are pretty much grown now but I still remember, there is no way a baby could believe on Jesus Christ.
If salvation is based on our believing how would a baby become saved?

Calvinist believe God creates some people to be lost
_________________________________
No they do not believe that.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

All mankind is lost. Totally and completely lost.
God does not predestinate any to go to hell. Every one lives under the wrath of God unless God chooses to rescue them. Salvation is a rescue, we are hopelessly lost.
Spiritually we are dead. The dead don’t hear, The dead don’t think, and the dead don’t believe. But just as Jesus called out Lazarus from the tomb He calls us to salvation. When He calls we move.
Just as He gave Lazarus a new life he gives us a new life.
Do you recognize how the heart is involved with our salvation? We can’t believe with all our heart because our heart is totally depraved.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Notice the heart is deceitful. Many a person thought they knew their own heart and believed themselves to be saved but they were not.
God gives us a new heart. Our salvation happens when God has changed our heart, We become born again.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Because we have a new heart we can test our salvation.
Everyone will sin, but a believer finds no pleasure in sin. A believers desire is to remove sin from their life. It is this desire we can use to test our salvation. We need to look at ourselves honestly and often.

2 Corinthians 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.                            
Many people who have claimed Jesus as Lord, and have believed themselves saved will find, in the end, that they never were saved, they preferred sin over the law of God.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

From these verses in Matthew we can see that many people believing themselves faithful to God were not.
So what is the test?

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

When we become saved it is our greatest desire and pleasure to obey and serve The Lord.

suzie
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross. (1 Pet. 2:24a)
Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin and spiritual death. He became our substitute.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf [as our substitute], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21)

I agree with you on all of the above statements.

Because of the work of Jesus Christ, salvation is available to everyone.

Neither your salvation plan nor mine makes salvation available to every one.
By your gospel salvation is dependent on believing. All sorts of people have lived on this earth and have never heard of Jesus. Therefore it is impossible for them to believe.
Paul said:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

By my gospel Jesus only paid for the sins of those who would become saved. Once the price was paid it can never be paid again. So if He paid for everyone’s sin  then even those who do not accept Him would not have to go to hell. That is not possible.
We must be born again before we can truly believe.

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus also stated that believing was because of Gods work:
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The problem is the heart. Mans heart is unable to truly believe. Mans heart is totally corrupt. We become saved when God gives us a new heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Can a baby believe? I dont know, can it?

I’ve raised four children - NO.
That is the problem with a gospel where believing is a requirement. Babies cannot be saved with such a gospel.
On the other hand if it is God who does the saving then babies can become saved, in fact John the Baptist was saved while he was still in the womb.
Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

How can a baby believe?

Two brothers attend church together one becomes saved and the other does not.
Why?
Is the one that believes smarter, or more humble, what seperates the two?
The one that believes can boast because he is able to believe and others cannot.
Believing is a work. If salvation is based on believing then it is a works gospel.

How can a baby believe?

Very much the opposite. I believe there are NO WORKS that we can do to get our selves saved.
To believe is a work, and thus a result of salvation.
That is why I asked the question:
How can a baby believe?
That is why I brought up the idea taught by Jesus that we must be born again.
When we are born again we become a completely different kind of a person from what we were before.
To be born again means our heart has been changed. Our heart is totally corrupt and will even deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We become saved when God changes our heart. It is entirely His work:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.