LOL
A Sunday school teacher was discussing the Ten Commandments with her five and six year olds. After explaining the commandment to "honour thy father and thy mother," she asked "Is there a commandment that teaches us how to treat our brothers and sisters?" Without missing a beat, one little boy answered, "Thou shall not kill."

Children who have died before the age of accountability are also treated accordingly. In other words, their place in hell, so to speak, is much different than others who have deliberately rejected the words of Christ.

What is the age of accountability? Where is it found in the bible?

sanc·ti·fy
tr.v. sanc·ti·fied, sanc·ti·fy·ing, sanc·ti·fies
To set apart for sacred use; consecrate.
To make holy; purify.
To give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow: sanctify a marriage.
To give social or moral sanction to.
To make productive of holiness or spiritual blessing.

To be sanctified does not mean that they become saved. An unbelieving husband is still an unbelieving husband, and unbelieving children fall in the same category.
However through the believers life and by reading to children they are under the hearing of the gospel.
Because God saves through His word I think it increases the odds of the children being saved. Since we cannot lose our salvation and many true and faithful parents have seen their children go against the Lord two conclusions can be made:
1. Children are not saved just because their parents are.
2. All children never could be saved just because they are babies.
God does pass judgment on children:

Deuteronomy 32:25  The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

This is Gods judgment on the nation of Israel. But it is also speaking of Gods judgment on all mankind. Christ is the Rock of our salvation. Notice God was angry because of the actions of Jeshurun found in verse fifteen:

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

We see the beautiful giggly little baby God sees the heart. God can change the heart but only through the hearing of the word. So yes I think it increases the chances of babies being saved.
And remember they can even hear the word when they are in the womb. Read to those tummies!

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

John
Somewhere in between universalism and works based gospels the truth resides.
God chooses who to save and lets the others go their own way. Man is doomed for Hell but it is Gods pleasure to save some.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

What I believe is that God chooses people who are most Godly like, then leads them to the Gospel in which he gives them salvation through Jesus Christ, that’s what I believe.

I was not a godly person, far from it. I wasn’t a criminal but I wasn’t godly.
I’m sure there are other stories but sometime you might want to read about John Newton, writer of Amazing Grace, pastor and all around child of God.
His life would be an Academy Award winning movie, problem is Christians couldn’t go it would be “R” rated or worse.
God saves all types, but I think you might be somewhat right that if a child is raised in a God fearing family the Lord might be more merciful to them.    

ALL had & have the same FREE opportunity to Mature in Christ. Forknowledge of the GodHead does not effect ones salvation either way, the CHOICE IS OURS TO MAKE! (They just knew the outcome in advance) Even the Gentile ones of Rom. 2:14-15!

Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 2 is only telling us we know right from wrong. We know most of the sins in our heart. And so many people who know nothing about God will live decent lives. My father was one such person. He lived his life to better mankind, he was kind and fair and more Christian than many who claim Christ. Yet unless God had mercy and saved him on his deathbed it is not likely that he will live with Christ.
How can someone accept Christ of their own freewill when they have never heard of Christ?

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Acts 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

If Jesus told Paul that he needed to go to the Gentiles to open their eyes to receive forgiveness for their sins then how is it possible for someone who has never heard the gospel to become saved?

Acts 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
 
To go even further how could a baby make that freewill decision.

God does restrain sin because if He did not we would destroy ourselves we are that bad off.
God gives people up to their sin I think that is what happens when He hardens someone’s heart.

Romans 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Any salvation plan that requires us to do something would be unfair unrighteous and unjust. Because salvation would be dependent on us, some people would have an unfair advantage. Those that were raised in a Christian society would have an advantage over those raised in a Hindu or Muslim or Pagan society.
It cannot be because we are born with the knowledge Christ is the savior in our heart. If this was true There would be the same percentage of believers in every society.  

No one will come to Him in truth unless He draws them. And everyone He draws Will become saved:

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 
Remember the paralyzed man in Mark? His friends lowered him down through the roof so Jesus could heal him. Instead Jesus forgave him his sins. He didn’t ask for forgiveness there was no freewill choice involved.

The fact is ALL would perish.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God does not predestinate any one to Hell we are all going there unless God rescues us.
It is an amazing thing because there is nothing we can do to rescue our selves. And none of us deserve to be rescued.
Sure we can throw ourselves on the mercy of God and we can search Him out in the scripture but salvation is totally His choice.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
If it was Gods will He could save everyone because we cannot resist His will:

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Our salvation is completely Gods mercy and nothing of our will (freewill) can save us:

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you're going to be realist, the forhead and the right hand signify  that which we are occupied with and  that which our thoughts are devoted.

I agree with Hitch. If we are saved than our thoughts are on the Lord.

Revelation 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
 
Concerning 666 take out your pocket calculator, take 2 and divide it by 3. This equals .666... Numbers are words and all of the words of the bible are subject to interpretation.
God explains what 2/3 and 1/3 means:

Zechariah 13:8  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zechariah 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


If you wish to explore this further look to 2Ki 1:10. Three captains are sent to take Elijah. The first 2 are consumed when Elijah calls down fire from heaven. The third was spared when he begged for mercy.
Two thirds (666) represents the unsaved it is not a literal number.

It has been several years since I looked into the sabbath day. I’ve had to do a bit of a review. I made some errors in what I’ve said previously. When I had first heard this information I chose to check it out, I would recommend that you do the same.
Ideally you should have a Greek interlinear bible. Strong’s concordance is somewhat helpful, Young’s concordance is only a little better and if you can find a Thayer’s lexicon and wade through it, it will help in defining the plural words. The interlinear bible that I used was my wife’s she took it with her when she moved out 7 years ago. However I did find an interlinear tied to Strong’s on the internet.  http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Under the field ‘search in’ - find ‘Greek/English Interlinear’ next; type sabbath as a search term and you will get 55 entries.
You will find that all of them except one entry (Mark 15:42) is identified as the same Strong’s number, #4521. They are different words though as you will soon see.
In Mark 15:42 it is Strong’s #4315 a compound word.
4315 prosabbaton {pros-ab'-bat-on}
from 4253 and 4521;; n n
AV - day before the sabbath 1; 1
1) the day before the sabbath
Now go down to Matthew 28:1. Highlight the Greek word identified as #4521. Copy it then paste it into the search field. You will get 11 entries not 54.
Now you will find that this Greek word 'sabbatwn' is often mistranslated as ‘week’. It is properly translated as a plural word only once, Luke 4:16.
Thayer’s Lexicon identifies the last two letters, ‘wn’, as making it a plural word.
There is a word often translated as a plural, sabbaths, 'sabbasin'. If you do a word search of this you will get 14 entries.
The word ‘sabbaton’ only appears 14 times even though it is the word defined in Strong’s #4521.
I would hope that you would question not only what I tell you but also question your church. Question yourself. If you question and are willing to put aside pride you will find a whole new world in God’s word.
I can’t repeat enough how much I missed because my pride kept me from God’s truths.
I pray that God will give me the eyes to see and the ears to hear. Because if He doesn’t then I cannot know the truth.

Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

If you know of any way to explain Matthew 28:1 and all of the other passages dealing with this event I would like to know the explanation.
 
Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,       Young’s Literal Translation

Matthew 28:1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.       Green’s Literal Translation

I find it very unusual that none of our popular bible got this right. Perhaps God allowed this for His own purpose:

2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God changed the sabbath day and if you do not follow the new sabbath then you are not keeping Gods commandment.    
The SDA church was founded by a woman who had a vision.
A woman is not to teach or have authority over men concerning spiritual things.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
 

 
 

     

This was my last week off until Christmas time it is also the first time I have ever gone into one of these forums. I hope I have not offended anyone, if the gospel offends I can’t help that. If I have done anything I hope it is to get people to read their bible a little more carefully. Compare scripture with scripture and most of all think about what you believe. Don’t be afraid to find that you are wrong. For many years I believed doctrine more than I believed the bible, to my loss.
I’ll be going back to work and that puts me out of town. Some times 3 days a week, sometimes 6, sometimes I’m out for a couple of weeks.  I will drop by occasionally to see what is going on.

In Hebrews 4 God is showing that rest is the same as salvation in Christ. It supports the fact that sabbath was changed. Several different words are all translated rest.
So no, Hebrews 4 is not a lie don’t make assumptions it makes you sound ignorant and I don’t believe you are ignorant.
Are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Was your church founded by a woman who had a vision?
I really don’t have time to explain this any more. This week has been fun but I have to go back to work. Occasionally I’ll drop in but work takes me out of town and I won’t get much time off until Christmas, what a wonderful time of the year.

If you make a choice you are doing a work. That is why you need an age of accountability. Babies can not do that work, and even if there was an age of accountability (there isn’t) the fact that babies could not choose and could not believe is proof that it is a work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.

If You must choose than it is of yourself by definition.

We have already covered a lot of this earlier Here is an excerpt from my reply #273:
Believing is a work. That is why Paul said people could not believe until they had hear about Jesus:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus said it was Gods work that we believe:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
You have a works gospel Ambassador.

Pick from the list below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.

Obeying God's law and commandments
Doing your best
Living a good life
Good works
Tithing, or giving money to the church
Church membership or attendance
Water baptism
Holy communion

Believing on Christ
Calling on the Lord
By faith


None of the above works will get you saved. Any gospel that requires work would be unfair, unrighteous, and unjust. Believing, calling, obeying, and faith are a result of salvation.
You cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless you are born again. How do you get yourself born?

petro
I want to answer your question before we get to far away from it.
If one of my children died and he was not saved I would mourn. I still mourn for my parents. Wonderful people but unless God saved them on their death bed they will not be in heaven.
David did not mourn.

2 Samuel 12:21  Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
2 Samuel 12:2  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me

I think that there is a spiritual lesson in this passage related to fasting that I want to explore in a minute.
He would not have quit weeping if his son was in the grave.
On the other hand he said he would go to his son.
When a believer dies his spiritual body goes to be with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We also have a very misunderstood verse of scripture:

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice that these are the souls of the saved. The mark on the forehead denotes what their thoughts were on. The stumbling stone for many is the thousand years. Notice it doesn’t say reigned on earth. These are the believers who have died through out the ages.
Of course the question is: How can that be since all sorts of Christians have been with Christ longer than a thousand years. Numbers are words and all of the words of the bible are subject to interpretation. We have a key to understanding this word in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In a nut shell, when we are with the Lord we are no longer in time. We will be with the Lord for the fullness of Gods time. And that is all that the thousand year stuff is about. Gods time. God doesn’t always use words like we think He should as you’ll see when we go into fasting.
Because someone who is saved goes to be with the Lord. And because David didn’t mourn. I think I am on solid ground to say David believed he would see his son.

Now about fasting.
Jesus removed a devil from a child and his disciples asked why they were not able to do it. Jesus answered:

Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

This verse was left out of the N.I.V. because the translators didn’t think it made sense to go without food to remove a devil. It was one of the main reasons why they chose to use the older texts. It is my belief that the reason the older texts were in such good condition is because they were not used. They weren’t used because they weren’t accurate. It seems more reasonable to me that a scribe made an error. Maybe he was new, maybe he was old, may be he was careless. Maybe he had to hurry and decided since he didn’t understand some verses so he left them out, there is probably a thousand (pun intended) reasons why these older texts were inaccurate. But I think it is much more reasonable than some body trusted added to the bible. If you’re going to add something why would you add something like that?
God gives His definition of fasting.

Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.
On a spiritual level once someone dies the gospel is of no use to them. So once his son died David quit fasting. It is a historical parable.    

To use an acknowledged humanistic illustration, we as Americans do not and would not support capital punishment of a person that does not UNDERSTAND his wrong no matter what his age.

In the islands of the South Pacific when people were sexual swingers they did not know it was a sin, therefore that would not be subject to judgment. Since they had never heard of Jesus there was no sin on believing on him ether.
I got a speeding ticket because I didn’t know that the speed had been lowered.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense in America. The above quote by Doug Dodd sounds very pleasing but it is false.
Concerning Deuteronomy 1:39--- The nation of Israel time and time again rebelled against God, the children were not old enough to be one of the decision makers for the nation therefore God was not going to punish them for the sins of their nation. If there is an age of accountability it would be 20:
 
Concerning atonement money, paying for atonement:
Exodus 30:14  Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

We can come up with all sorts of gospels if we isolate various verses of scripture. Pastor Dodd is using Deuteronomy 1:39 out of context.

Isaiah 7:16 again is out of context. It is very much parabolic language dealing with the birth of Christ. And Christ was the only person since Adam who was born with no sin in him. Verse 14 …a virgin shall conceive, and bare a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.  

And to hand a Calvinist Romans 9 is like pitching a baseball right down the middle to Barry Bonds. You should have walked me.
If there is any book of the bible that I would recommend someone reading over and over again, until it sinks in, it is Romans 9.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

God chose to save Jacob before they were born to prove his salvation plan was one of ELECTION not works.
I was not talking about unborn children God says we go astray as soon as we are born not before we are born.

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
Not by our will. If your salvation is based on your freewill decision look at this verse again.
This really should be more on babies so I won’t take the bait and go further. I could do pages and pages on Romans 9.
I am sorry but Pastor Doug needs to do a little more homework.
The Bible is very clear on this:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.
If you have another understanding of Psalm 58 I am open to learn.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

What is a suckling? God does judge babies. Do you have another understanding? What is it?
One note C. H. Spurgeon believed that God saved all babies by election. I am in disagreement with him on this issue. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what he is talking about. I hold that same position on Pastor Dodd, I really don’t know anything about him.