Dear Tibby:

       I have a testamony to share with you about that.  It goes along with what you were saying about the other jokes to heard.
       What was told to you certainly wasn't jokes, thus im sorry that you had to hear them.  I grew up Catholic, and actually loved the Catholic Church before I was saved.  I loved praying to God, I urged my parents to take me to Confessions like what the saints do and I wanted one day to become a Franciscan Monk.  The reason why I came to love the Church is because of the Bible.  I began to read my mom's NIV and it changed my life, it made me want to go to Church, it inspired me to do good for other people, and prevented me from breaking the rules around me.  However, I was a little different.
       Since i grew up reading the Bible, I didn't do things that normal Catholics do such as praying to Mary (keep in mind, I didn't know much about that).  However, as I learned more and more about the RCC, I began to pray the rosary, I kept it in my pocket or around my neck (oops, not a necklace)!  During that time, I did knowtice something a bit off.  I remember that neither the apostles, nor the Christians in the Bible prayed to anyone except God.  I also noticed, that they weren't repeating their prayers either, and the fact that Mary wasn't really promenant in scripture - why is that?  With those things in mind, I felt discouraged.  This was the beginning of a turn.  
       As time went on, cult groups began to reach me.  One in particular, a JW, showed me the Bible, and my eyes are opening to the realization that the RCC is wrong.  After half a year, I got tired of them because thye seem arrogant so i left.  As a result, I became stronger and more defiant as a Catholic than ever before; I finally studied the RCC doctrine, I printed pages of Catholic Apologetics, and studied against the possible encounter of our protestant enemies.  I'm going to make sure that their laughter ends with me.  As I studied further, the Bible, of all the enemies I can think of became a thorn on my side.  I looked at verses used to defend the Church, I remembered the context around the verse.  When I looked into a verse that says, "suffer the little children to me," in order to defend Infant Baptism.  As I read, "Wait-a-minuite, thats not exactly right," the passage wasn;t really talking about that doctrine but merely Jesus permitting kids to come to him.  Needless to say, I was having a hard time.  Soon after, a cult-group followed a few years after; i was sucked into it (see: www.reveal.org about the ICoC).  Thankfully, my stay wasn't long thanks to a Rev. Steve, and an Ex-member named Susan.
       Now that I recieved Jesus into my life, I have peace I never felt while i was Catholic.  Not that the RCC has evil demons that I can sense, of course not, but this peace hasn't originated from my home Baptist church, RCC, or any religion, but this peace came from Jesus when He say:

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

       I no longer repent because I have to (or else!), but because I WANT TO.  Now that's freedom!
       The problem with Religion is that in essence, you have to earn, work your way to Salvation; the RCC is no exception.  We can talk about Mary, the Saints, and all the rest, and those things are important too, but not as important as this.
       If you want to talk about Salvation with me, than I am more than willing to do it, I just want to share my testamony.  The reason the protestants and Evangelicals have a bit of a trouble with the RCC is because, the RCC doctrines are outside of Scripture, and it even controdicts.  You said that people say that RCC is Pagan; as a former Catholic, I know exactly what you are saying.  I'm not saying anything yet, but what if it is?  To know for sure, We have to search the scriptures.

Ps.  If you want to study with me on the RCC, then I will be happy to share some verses, and you can do that too, but we must go through them one-by-one.  Also, I think first, Salvation must be discussed but its up to you.

Agur

Dear Tibby,

       In my experience, the stuff he presented, is serious.  I go in chatrooms from time to time, and have dealt issues but particularly, Bible-Controdictions; the verse presented in that slide show, are the very same ones I had to deal with.  And I wasn't talking to happy people either, they were angry, upset, and cynical.  Unfortunatly, I have met also, those who deliberatly twist God's Word simply to win arguments.
       Since you were not offended, I'd like to know why you think it is the other way around because I think we either missed something or you have some explaining to do.  Unless you yourself is a skeptic, I can't see why you have such a loose opinion, especially when the site itself is making a strong statement against the Bible.

Dear Tibby,

       I went though this site, and frankly, i have enough experiene to know that these jokes are not jokes at all.  If it were a Christian site, it would have answers for each "Controdiction."  If it were a joke, it would not use harsh words "Wrong, You are going to Hell" if you choose what the auther considered wrong and display passages that indecate someting that we would not normally see jesus as Loving and forgiving.  There were about 12 questionaires, and at the end, there were no disclaimers but shows other sites that has the same sarcasim.
       I spoke and debated with atheists and agnostics (if time allows) for three years and I know the kinds of questions they asked.  Honestly, after looking at that site, how can anyone believe that such a site is a joke especially when it is dealing with verses that are the least understood on grounds of fairness?  And unless you are a skeptic trying to provoke a reaction, how can you not see that?  If you can point out where i missed a disclaimer, or aan indication that the auther meant no harm, I believe that this site is an attempt to discredit the Bible.

       Needless to say, this site in question did not act sincerely in their argument in my opinon; otherwise, shouldn't it have a moral for Fundamentalists to get their heads out of an oppresive faith?  It would have been an outreach but instead, it simply ridicules.

Dear Michael

       I saw your site, and i do have to say that it appears to be so at first glace.  However, ive been reading scripture for a while, and i just cant see your argument on that.  Genesis for example, why did God gave the apple in the first place - to make people stumble?  I really don't think so because it does not match his Charactor.
        If you want to go through these Bible-Controdictions with me, then that would be great on one condition - One at a time.  That means, we deal with one controdiction and once we are done with that, we move on to the next.  Does that sound good to you?

Agur

Dear Froggy

       I want to add this...heaven is for Christians yes, but Christian is just a name as IrishAngel said, but who goes to heaven then?  And why are all other religious persons excluded?  The answer is that one, only those who trusted in the work of Christ and believes Him as He (God the Son, or Son of God).
       The reason why everyone else is excluded is first, they need to have the right God to side with.  In the Torah, only God is the true God, and He is the only one not because He looks down on them but because He is the only God in existance!  Why go to another God, yet man wanted the golden calf of their own.  Second, is not that they are righteous enough, or loved God enough.  In fact, if it was by our efforts, Christians and Jews alike will be last in the list of who are more obedient.  Instead, the heaven destined people simply made a decison.  "Lord I want to recieve you as my King, and I believe that you have died for me."  "Now I am saved, because of what you have done for me at the Cross."  the result of Faith in Christ is Salvation from the consenquences of Sin, and now, Eternal Life is given Free, and will never lose it because it is eternal life.  Here is the differnce between biblical Judaism (and Chrisitanity) and all the other religions.  If you look at all the religiions in the world, they all have this in common, their only solution for their sins is to make it up.  How?  By their efforts either by good works to outweight the bad or by an act of chatizement or sacrifice.  In Isaiah 64:6:

6   But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 64:6

The efforts of men can never outweigh their guilt.  Can't God forgive?  Yes, God can forgive but there is a price that has to be paid for that sin.  Have you noticed that the Torah lists sacrifies in order to atone for sins?  One I heard is a burnt offering, and other, the priest has to kill a spotless ram or, Lamb (a picture of whats to come)!  Though sacrifice helps, the sins haven't been paid yet in full.  Ultimately, it is either that we pay for those sins ourselves, or let Christ pay for us so we don't have to.  Why Christ?
       We believe as you know that Jesus is the foretold Messiah, the man that the Prophets predicted that would come to Save Mankind.  I know that today, most of the Jews believe differently about Him.  However, if Jesus says who he says He is, then He is the chosen Messiah.  What sets Jesus apart from all the prophets before him is that He has the solution for sin, and thats why He must be chosen as King:

17   For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. - John 1:17

In addition, He is also God in human flesh.  To believe Jesus is to believe God Himself because Jesus is God.  


The Trinity

We define Trinity as this, "One God in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."  We believe God is One, but God is a Triune God, but not three Gods or Three persons.  It is just like us, We are one person, but we are made up of:

1.   Body
2.   Soul
3.   Spirit

IN a sense we are Triune as well but remember, We are One person.  Imagine also that there are three candle-lights.  they are three lights but when combined, they are one.

Ps:  I know this is a lot, but I hope this helps

Agur

Dear John
 
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Now that is a wonderful verse, and is useful to remind us of the necessity of study, but where does it say here in this passage that we need to study to be apporoved to heaven?

*******
We have perhaps a different 180 degree 'belief' on one approved, staying approved!? There is NO CONDENMATION to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Now what? We are ALL SAVED, lets just take a long sleep.


       Precisely that, and thats exactly what John 5:24 says, but the idea that we sleep long seems always a mis-conception for those not familiar with Eternal Security. but for the record, I say no.  I believe God Works in us to will and to work for his own good pleasure, and what I quoted is a bible verse (Phil 2:13).


Well, Matt. 4:4 followed verse one of Christ as man, being tempted. (tested is a better understanding. Unless one believes God delibertly & presumptously walked into temptation)


       Now how is this relating to salvation?


So what was the GodHeads purpose of testing anyone? Christ was PERFECT! So was Luciffer created perfect. And Adam & Eve were both created Very Good as is stated! (Perfect) So why in the world was the tree allowed to be put right there in the Midst of the Garden Of Eden???


       What is this about perfect at first and tests?  Are they clear pictures to you that they are what salvation is all about?  Remember that when God made things perfect, that does not mean, he created them Saved!  Notice that Adam and Eve did not know that they were naked -hence tey are innocent, they were perfect.  The meaning of perfect in context of creation and the fall of adam is this - uncorruption of sin.  
       Notice, before Adam sinned, all is perfect, after sin, there was weeds, thorns and thistles (Gen 3:19).  Animals that were once all vegitarians now grew fangs and claws.  Now everything was perfect, no storm, earthquakes, and other harsh conditions but now that Adam sinned, all that were once good, now are corrupted.  Now what is the difference between Adam and Satan?  Satan is the LightBearer.
       Adam as an innocent creature have yet to know good and evil, thats why he'd care less whether he is naked.  Satan However was in the presence of God, and he more than Adam knew about God.  Since he was a Servent by creation, He absolutly know who God is.  Therefore, as angels, the line is already drawn.  Knowing God, there was absolutly no reason to defy for God is the essence of Good.  Unfortunately, He has already made his decision:

14   Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15   Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28:14-15

12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13   For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14   I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15   Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. - Isaiah 14:12-15

       What is the difference between Satan and Man?  Satan Knew God fully, more than Man limited in mind so when He ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, all men died - sin entered into the World.


       Now lets say that the going ons in genesis are pictures of Salvation, then you must account for the fact that when Adam sinned, he didn't make that sin up.  What atoned for his Sins?  God; the Lord killed an animal, and innocent creature, and covered his nakedmess and hers.  Adam didn't kill that animal, God did and HE covered the shame of man.  Now that is the Picture, of the coming sacrifice to end all sacrifices for sin.


This no doubt is where we disagree? Salvation & ALL Promises of God are conditional unless stated! (such as the rainbow in the sky) Heb. 13:20's EVERLASTING COVENANT is just that. CONDITIONS!  Perfect Love for the Master is what is needed to be tested to see if it was safe for eternity.
That is, the 'Perfect' Born Again ones, not the Gentils. John 3:3.

 (Nah. 1:9) Before sin, man had a perfect inmature Love. Yet it was not CREATED FULLY MATURE. Love MUST BE MATURED. Free will of choice demanded that His creation develope a CHARACTER that could not be given or created in its maturity without being as a robot. The provision is there in Christ (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) but the FREE CHOICE is our to make.


       The free agency to choose is a gift of God indeed, but to say that such agency applies to Salvation is a mere  reading in to scriptures.  Remember that Matthew 4:4 has nothing to do with Salvation.  If so, point to me where you read salvation there IN verse 4

Ps.  the verses you gave, I trust that you are not using them as proof text to a loss of salvation.

Dear John

       I simply asked you for one, ONE verse to back up your claim, and notice, I did not say, "Disregard all verses."  Now i'm sure you have a whole list for me to look at, but One by One DOES NOT mean One and farewell!  In addition, there is  a suspicion that i'm playiny a game of sort.  The problem is, I have been very clear to you why our engagement must be done this way so that it would be fair, timewise, and sure.  Reading my reasons wouldnt you say that I am serious?  
       Now ou gave me more than I can answer for today; and I think you evern tried to sneak one more to me:

Does Christ when stating this TRUTH say, "[IF] ye LOVE ME keep my COMMANDMENTS as a way to earn salvation??? Come on now?  

       Thats a Bible quotation, now I have to answer three on top of the rest of references.
       To please you, i'll answer Mt 4:4 but no more.


4   But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

       Now that is a wonderful verse, and is useful to remind us of the necessity of study, but where does it say here in this passage that we need to study to be apporoved to heaven?

Dear John

       Thank you for responding, it takes care and patience to deal with each person that differs from your opinions but especially so if you have seen it all before.  There is however, something I want to bring to your attention before we continue.
       Now - I dont mean to be rude but didn't I just say One by One?  Now I know where you come from, I am a former Catholic, but due to the length of the page and the number of verses, I won't read them unless you pick one for me so I can answer them.
       The reason I wanted an even exchange is that for one, fairness.  Some Christian might just come here with little pun, but a heart for God and some expert exherts his wits on this poor fellow with so much information the believer will be intimidated.  By the way, there are those who love to defeat other by unfair methods and one of such ways includes un-interuppted barrage of verses; I trust you are the opposite.
       Another is time.  A piece like yours though helpful, it takes time and energy to read and answer all passages when only one verse can be given just to show evidence.  If Salvation is Clearly stated by Works, then why assemble and piece together a puzzle?  Isn't the Bible clear enough?
       Finally, the real way of solving problem such as this is simply going through them one by one.  For example, if I give you one, you can tell me how I mis-interpret that verse; afterwards, you can give me one in return.  By solving each problematic verse, the Bible will reveal the truth; the clarity of Salvation will shine brighter and brighter until all that is left is a decision.
        But if you want I can start, i'll just give you a verse that I believe proves my point: John 5:24

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

       Notice, it doesn't say believe and earn, nor does it say baptize but believe and when they do, they has or Have everlasting life (has or have, present tense), and shall NOT come into condemnation but HAS passed from death Unto Life...

Ps.  If you do not want to follow this way, then I will think that you are not interested in listening, but only to defeat so that you can walk away and add another to your tally.  I have a number of bad experiences so I do know what i'm talking about - now it's your turn.

15   But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1 Peter 3:15



Agur (and not agrue)

Hello John, I want to make sure that I'm geting your beliefs right, you believe that it is by faith and works that one is saved?  I believe differently according to scripture so I disagree with Petro.  To me, when Jesus made a promise, He said it with no strings attached so now if he did, He had just told a white lie saying, "if you believe me...you have eternal life but..."

Ps.  I love to read verses but I can only deal with one verse at a time, so it is an even exchange of ideas and not a firefight.

God bless

Agur