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31  Theology / General Theology / Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no. on: October 16, 2003, 06:59:44 PM
Baptism is very important; no one who takes the Bible seriously can dispute it.  

But:

1.   Is it necessary to be saved?  
2.   Does it actually wash sins away?  
3.   Is true faith needed for one to want baptism so it saves them?

       No to all three.  It is not necessary because Christ took care of that.  
       It also doesn't wash sins away because it is a work opposite of faith.
       Finally, Faith does not make one get baptised to get saved (it will never save anyways).  Lets say a believer does not want to get baptised, is he really a believer?  Like the statement, "Saved Will Work to be saved," no.  Believing that he's sins are washed away when baptised defeats the purpose of Christ's work on the Cross - never did believe Christ can.

Ps.  Since I have school, I need to be stern - No flood!  I answer verses one-by-one - no exceptions.  So don't give me a list.

agur  
32  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: October 16, 2003, 06:27:27 PM
       Oh by the way, Petro...have you read the Parable on the seeds and the sower?  How seeds fall in various places but all died but one which landed on Good Soil?

18   Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19   When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

       This can be a person who simply said yes but have no real reason why he/she should.  Pretty much just do what everyone else is doing.

20   But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21   Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

       The root for faith is knowledge but also seriousness seriousness - counting the cost prior to faith.  Now all who believes have varying faith; some as small as the mustard seed, and others like the centurian.  Regardless of how small, if serious, their faith saved them.  Now we know Christ will save all that believes him (John 10:28).  Christ also says that whosoever perservear to the end, the same shall be saved (Note: salvation is not discussed in this passage, otherwise the verses around would have indicated it -Matthew 24:13).  True believers will persevere, for are we not "more than conquerers?"
       But for someone who simply says yes, and recieved it with joy, did he/she recieved it with joy but they ran!  Keep in mind that every believer persevears - did they really believe, or did they simply said yes thinking "Ah yes, im saved..."   I think their faith is sort of Cavalier that they took his Salvation for granted so when persecution comes - "Wow - not for me!!!"  Their Faith is no faith, they never recieved Salvation because their decisions to believe is not genuine - like going to church every sunday like many protestants see see Catholics do.

22   He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

       Could it be that people gave their lives to Christ because of the promises of Riches?  Of course!  they stake their lives on hte promise but they may find themselves still poor not knowing that the riches of Christ is not found on money.  Again though it is dependant on the seriousness of he person because one can be attracted to money but at the same time "You know, even if I am not rich, shouldn't I just accept Christ?"

23   But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

       Now this is real faith, one who trusts God according to knowledge

Jesus' Explination on the parable of the Sower - Matthew 13:18-23

agur
33  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: October 16, 2003, 05:17:47 PM
Dear Brother Petro

You said:

"Heidi, 'You sound as thou you are God, what qualifies you to know, this mans heart???'"

       Wow, now wait-a-minute...Petro, I don't think she is proclaiming a relevation of sort nor is it a dispensation adding to doctrines already found in the Bible such as the Rapture.  Now of course, you meant the insides of man's heart, but you acted as if she made a breech.  
       No where did she claim to know but only she "Thinks..."  Instead, I think she got the idea though experience and observation.  

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

       Now if you are in need to defeat her "Authority" concerining Intellectual faith then in like-manner, prove me wrong.  Look at my response to her because I posted scriptures in support.

agur
34  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: October 07, 2003, 05:36:26 PM
Heidi Says:
"I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence."

        Amen Heidi, I was wandering about it (I wondered everytime if I were saved).  What if someone just says yes to everything the Gospel messege (God is Holy, Man has Fallen-cannot reach Him, Christ took Mans Place, and man's response)?  
       That is just like a Jew saying in James 2, "Yes there is one God"  Yet to that even the demons shudder at the thought.  Did those demons really believe?  They do believe He exists; after all, they did see God's glory, and Satan was in His presence, so do they believe God is, and JEsus Is Christ and God?   Hard question, but in a sense, Yes, because they saw God so there is no way they can deny His existance and they probably knew what God stood for, but that's as far as  it goes.

George Bush in is speech concerning 9/11 says to the World, "You are either with us or with the Terrorist?"

       Knowing who God is isn't enough, what you do with that knowledge?  

agur
35  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: October 07, 2003, 03:41:43 PM
Petro Says:
"This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved."

      I'm in full agreement with this.  If faith requires something else to get one to heaven, then it is not Saving faith at all.  You either trust Jesus completely for your salvation or you don't.  And this kind of Faith is not Faithfulness nor is it something that you have to have in order to remain Saved because if that is so, then thats effort (works) and that is not Saving Faith nor is it really the Gospel that saves.
      Tibby, you said that if one has true faith, one will work.  In a sense, yes, because when persecution comes around, phony members will leave.  However this is the question you have to ask yourself:

Can you lose that Salvation, yes or no?

      If you ssay yes to this, then it doesn't matter whether they believe enough, continueing in faith or have clean reasons because either way, if you can lose it, you will have to do something about that to keep it.

If it is all free will, then isn't so that salvation IS dependant on the person?  

        Faith or no faith, according to RCC Gospel, it is still dependant on a person, and again, Saving Faith is not something you have to continue on or having.  The Kind of faith that you do have to continue on is not the faith in context with Salvation but instead, relationship with God, now thats where faith is needed to help you work; thats where faith and works go hand-in-hand but never concerning salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth: to the Jew first then also and unto the Greeks
For therein is the righteiousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith
Romans 1:16-17

      And the Gospel does not mean the whole Bible though it is good.  But, the Good-News is this in the nutshell:


1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve
:
1 Corinthians 15:1-5

      If you believe this, you are saved and thats the end of it.  Now you enter a relationshjip than a religion and your practice as a believer is true religion.

agur
36  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 30, 2003, 07:47:03 PM
Dear Tibby

Tibby: Anyways, That makes sense. My question is this, if you head his word, and believe it, doesn't obeying it and serving come with it?

        Indeed, if I believe it, I should act on what I believed in.  However, this is not done out of being saved.  Again I should act on my faith but not for salvation or else my motives are not very clean.  Instead, I work because He saved me, because I have something others doesn't that if O share it  with them, they too can experience the freedom I have in Christ.  
       Speaking of Freedom, if I work because my Salvation is at stake, then thats not freedom, that is work that is due.  It use to be that I repent because I have no choice but to.  But now, I do have a choice; to glorify God or to sin and get chatized, but either way, I no longer act under threat but under free will made possible by Grace.

5   And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6   For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7   If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8   But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12

agur
37  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 30, 2003, 07:28:05 PM
Dear Tibby

17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

       Context is the way to go, and you are correct in that.  However, some would think that context means other scriptures.  Now that is context but the deeper context is the verses around the problem verse.  
       With James 2, I dont think He is really talking about works as evidence towards God as it is really towards men.  Im not saying that because of John 5:24 because here is the context:

 14   What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

       Take that alone, it just might say what it means.  but John is very clear about salvation, there are no works involoved so do we have a controdiction?  Not really, because in verse 15-16 shows what he really means:

15   If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16   And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

       In verse 14, it says, "Though a man says" and in these two verses, "And one of you say unto them...".  does these three verses together sound like works needed to prove to God?  No, it sounds like it is towartds other people.  Therefore:

17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

       Verse 18 is more telling:

18   Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

       Show who?  God?  No, the verse says, "Yea, a man say..."  Furthermore, he says, "...Show me..." Not God but sjhow me, in reference to man that is talking:

"...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

       John 5:24 is clear in the messege 100%  If there is a verse that seems to say something else, then the Bible controdicted itself and therefore, it is not Inspired as we hoped.  We shouldnt ignore the problem of course, but I think every verse  that seems to say the opposite can be answered simply by the cojntext around it or the background of it.  I've already posted it so feel free to  read it again.

agur
38  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 29, 2003, 08:49:32 PM
Dear Tibby

       I dont remember if you wanted to start off or not.  However, if you were waiting on me, then here's my first shot (verse):

John 5:24

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, Salvation is clearly simple,
"...he that heareth my word..." - thats the Gospel messege -"...and Believeth (notice, no works here) on Him that sent me Has..." or have Present tense,
"...Everlasting Life..."  Everlasting Life or Eternal Life means UNending Life
"...And shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death to life"  No buts or if here because this is unconditional.

       Notice also that It says at the beginning, "Verily Verily..." - that strong emphasis.  Whenever you hear that, He is placing importance to it and this verse is no exception so it is not one of those nice saying but it is truth.

agur

39  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 23, 2003, 02:49:00 AM
Dear Tibby

       I am willing to hear from your side.  I must however tell you that I am unwilling to read any book UNLESS the challenger does his/her part as well.
       As for the verse in Galatians, I posted that because thats the one Gospel, (yours or mine) that we must ber ready to aid away  If any believes in a gospel that is not taught by the Apostles, it is likely, the believer of such a gospel is not saved.  Galatians makes it clear that such a gospel brought by someone is accursed.  If mine gospel is false, I expect you to reach me because after all, maybe my gospel is an advocation to lawlessness.  However, if we are right about yours, then your Gospel is like all other religions that it tries to reach a Holy God by Works.
        The answering of verses can be seen as giving your opinion, but your opinion must have good reason behind it.

Ps.  You want to start off or let me fire first?  If you dom gio ahead and post a verse.

I'll be back next week - God Bless

agur
40  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 22, 2003, 08:15:06 PM
Dear Tibby:

"You attack Catholics because you want someone to attack. We tell you the truth, and you guys don’t listen! You think you know more about the Catholic Beliefs then Catholics do. I think I’d know a little bit more about Catholics then most Non-Catholics, thank you very much! Your right, we don’t see Praying to Mary or idolizing the likeness of saints in the bible, and that is precisely why Catholics don’t do that sort of thing!"

       I'm suprised by your comments; you really think that were just out there to hack at your faith?  I wouldn't be suprized that a few view we simply exist to feed off of the pain of loyal but unsuspecting catholics.  Thats ok, i think everybody believe so much in their faith/religion that they tend to feel any opposition/outreach is an attack by Satan.  Keep in mind however that we too feel the same with ours but both sides should open up.  Here's why the Gospel cannot be ignored:

6   I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7   Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8   But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9   As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:6-9

       If we we're out there only to attack either out of pleasure or hatred, we'd only focus on the controversies, the qweerness, and the illogicals of the RCC; the Bible would be just another tool for us.  
      For me, I rarely bring up the history because that is not what's important.  I do however talk about RCC doctrines, but I let the person choose if thye don't want to talk about Salvation.

      Now about Salvation, if you want to go through the Bible with me like the Bereans, then I perfer an even exchange of verses.  That means if I give you a verse, your job is to answer that verse, and when you are done, you can give me a verse in return.  For a topic such as this, the Bible would be very clear on what it really says so we definity need to do this.

God bless

agur
41  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 18, 2003, 07:47:51 PM
       Sorry, I think the Word Atone, is for the saved.  I think Spiritually, when there is a sacrifice, the sinner is forgiven but the sin is paid for by a spottless Lamb or Goat.  However, a better sacrifice is a broken heart (Psalm 51).  
       Why Animal Sacrifices then?  They are done out of faith just as Abel has done.  If it were by works, Cain would have been justified because look at his heart, it showed by the works of his hand.  Abel however, simply had a burnt offering; nothing hard about it, not like Cains.  If you remember Adam and Eve how God killed an Animal to cover the couples nakedness, then wow, now thats Faith!

agur
42  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? to Tibby on: September 18, 2003, 07:27:56 PM
Dear Tibby

       |'m sorry for the wait, my computer was down and I ahd school work to deal with.  
       I haven't been percecuted or ridiculed as a Catholic, but you have and for that, as a protestant, I apologize on the behalf of my church.  I do know what you mean by Protestants always on the offensive and Catholics on the defense.  My mom (a Catholic) tells me, "You guys always protests, so thats why you are all protestants."  Hard to prove that we are peace-lovers when we are the ones persuing but let me emphasis that word, Persue.
       Many I admit will bash Catholics and I had to rebuke one I remember.  However, there are those who do not have a spirit of hate in them and i think thats probably half of those who you met in yur lifetime.  the reason why we persue Catholics are two reasons - Bible and Salvation.  There are many problems that we see in RCC and among them you know already: Praying to Mary and the saints, Statue obessiance.  All those we don't see in Scripture and the Catholic Church teaches them.  So naturally, as believers in scripture, we do have to clear things up because one, they are errors anyways and two, God hates them (Titus 1:9).  The next Problem is more serious, here is why I'm persuing you.
       Believe it or not, there are only two ways to get saved in this world; one either by following the Law, or two by Faith Alone.  This immediately sets Biblical Judaism (completed in Christianity) apart from all Religions because all of them depends on the believers will to stay faithful.  Now how do you stay faithful?  Works: by good deeds and or by obedience to the Law.  God does justify the righteous but the problem is, they have to be perfectly righteous to enter the Kingdom.  Therefore, if they didn't obey or they sinned, they are separeted from God because of His Holiness and the deed they committed becomes a debt that has to be paid.  Now you as a former Protestant, if you really did believe (trust) in Jesus alone for your salvation, you are saved and still saved - i'll see you in heaven.  The problem is, you will be sharing the deadly error to everyone you share, even to convince other protestants that they too will spread poison.  
       You might say, "Don't Catholics believe in Jesus?"  Yes they do, and they are one of the only ones to believe in the Trinity.  The problem is did they really trust Jesus alone for their salvation?  They can follow Christ to death, but that's no different from all religions trying to make their way to God by the Law.  They might pray, "Jesus Save me," but they are the ones Saving themselves and not leaning on the finished work of Christ - His sacrifice for Sin.  Like all in religions, some will try to outweight their evil deeds by the good they do.  Sadly, they don't know that although they are doing everything right, it is their sin that is keeping them from God.  They will say, "God is forgiving."  The problem is, the sins still has to be paid for; God is forgiving, but like the Old Testament Saints, they will not reach God until their sins are paid for, so all they can do is to cover (Atone) it by sacrifices (OT Saints are saved by the way because they saw through the sacrifices and trusted God alone Psalms 16:10).  In consenquence, they never were saved because Sin has to be paid for.
     
I'm really sorry for the length of this work, but I want to inform you of it, not to justify Catholic bashing but to give you the reasons why we are the ones hunting.

agur  
43  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How well do you know your Bible? on: September 03, 2003, 08:27:21 PM
By the way Tibby, go ahead and look into other sites the maker has.  You will see things that are clearly insults than Jokes.
44  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Faith Alone or Faith and Righteous Living? on: September 02, 2003, 06:23:03 PM
Dear John

Man does not LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, "[BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD]" That is conclusive! All Scripture! See 2 Tim. 3:16. The Gospel IS EVERLASTING & THE COVENANT IS EVERLASTING! How does one KNOW THIS if one DOES NOT LIVE BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD? Why is the Bible CALLED THE WORD OF GOD?? See John 1:1-14.

       John, like I said before, those are good analogies but again, what does that has to do with Salvation?  WHere does it say in Mt 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16, and John 1:1-14 that you have to be obedient to be saved?  Does it indicate that in the passage itself?  How about the verses around that passage?  I think you are reading in those passages because the thought of obedience is in grained or imprinted in your way of thinking.  By that, every verse that has an instruction, a law, or a statute, you will read in, "...or else..."
       All passages that instruct are good to follow, but they were never meant to be used as the means to be worthy of eternal life.  However, before grace, it was like that.  Romans 2:6 clearly says, It is the hearers of the law and not the doers that are just before God.  However, later on in verse 19-24 (keep in mind, this is the moral law, not cereminial)
, Paul points out that even the Jews who are Not by Nature, sinners like the Gentiles could not follow the Law perfectly and in consenquence, they stain the name of the Lord to the gentiles.  In a passage in Deuteronomy, curse is the man who dooes not keep the whole law.  So who can be justified?  Not even the Jews can keep it.  That is why in Romans 3:19-20:

19   Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20   Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

       Now if you are going to say that since now, we have Jesus, you've lost the whole point of grace!  Grace in the Bible, means Undeserved Kindness; so if we are saved by Grace, we are saved not because we did our best or we remained faithful, otherwise, we didn't need it.

Agur
45  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Faith Alone or Faith and Righteous Living? on: September 01, 2003, 04:44:31 PM
Dear Heidi, John, and Ollie

       You brought up an exellent point Heidi!  Now Jesus is fully God and we all agree, but Jesus is also fully man.  Now although Jesus has never sinned, He never called himself good.  For a Holy and Just God, why is that so?  That's because in His Humanity, He is tempted as we are.  For him however, although he is tempted, He can never respond or obey to that temptation because as God, He can never sin.
       We however are slaves to sin, we have the nature of adam, so we are fallen.  In james 2:10, if we stumble on one, we violate all.  God is forgiving yes, but someone has to pay for that.  It is either we or Let Jesus do it.  You might say, "I believe JEsus, I trust Him for my Salvation"  No you don't, not if you add conditions to salvation.  If we trust in our abilities with the "help" of the Lord, that is not the same as trusting God ALONE for our salvation for we need to obey the rules either way now don't we?  Does God ever fail?  No, but since you believe we can lose it, God did fail now did he?  So now we have to do it ourselves now don't we?
       You might also say that you do not earn your salvation.  Then take this into account.  We know that the circumsision group nullify grace, but really, how different is the salvation you are adocating and that of the circumsison?  Sure, they believe in ceremonial, but they also believe in the Moral Law.  Since you believe the Moral Law also and you say that we Need to keep the whole Bible, then you have to conclude that your Gospel is no different than theirs because essentially, it works in the same principle of Salvation by Faith and Works.

       Now you are saying that we need to not single out, not pick and choose what we want to believe.  Amen, I agree, but John, you have yet to tell me how that verse (Matthew 4:4) is relevant to Salvation.  Now, it is a good analogy but what does 4:4, has to do with Salvation?

Agur
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