Just something to think about



The Witness of the Stars
E. W. Bullinger
1893
 
Table of Contents
Preface
Introduction



The First Book
The Redeemer
(His First Coming)
"The sufferings of Christ"
Chapter I

The Prophecy of the Promised Seed of the Woman

VIRGO (The Virgin. A woman bearing a branch in her right hand and an ear of corn in her left). The Promised Seed of the woman.

1. COMA (The Desired. The woman and child). The Desired of all nations.

2. CENTAURUS (The Centaur with two natures, holding a spear piercing a victim). The despised sin offering.

3. BOOTES (a man walking bearing a branch called ARCTURUS, meaning the same). He cometh.

Chapter II

The Redeemer's Atoning Work

LIBRA (The Scales). The price deficient balanced by the price which covers.

1. CRUX, The Cross endured.

2. LUPUS, or VICTIMA, The Victim slain.

3. CORONA, The Crown bestowed.

Chapter III

The Redeemer's Conflict

SCORPIO (The Scorpion) seeking to wound, but itself trodden under foot.

1. SERPENS (The Serpent struggling with the man).

2. O-PHI-U-CHUS (The man grasping the serpent). The struggle with the enemy.

3. HERCULES (The mighty man. A man kneeling on one knee, humbled in the conflict, but holding aloft the tokens of victory, with his foot on the head of the Dragon). The mighty Vanquisher seeming to sink in the conflict.

Chapter IV

The Redeemer's Triumph

SAGITTARIUS (The Archer). The two-natured Conqueror going forth "Conquering and to conquer."

1. LYRA (The Harp). Praise prepared for the Conqueror.

2. ARA (The Altar). Consuming fire prepared for His enemies.

3. DRACO (The Dragon). The Old Serpent— Devil, cast down from heaven.



The Second Book
The Redeemed
"The result of the Redeemer's sufferings"
Chapter I

Their Blessings Procured

CAPRICORNUS (The fish-goat). The goat of Atonement slain for the Redeemed.

1. SAGITTA (The Arrow). The arrow of God sent forth.

2. AQUILA (The Eagle). The smitten One falling.

3. DELPHINUS (The Dolphin). The dead One rising again.

Chapter II

Their Blessings Ensured

AQUARIUS (The Water-Bearer). The living waters of blessing poured forth for the Redeemed.

1. PISCIS AUSTRALIS (The Southern Fish). The blessings bestowed.

2. PEGASUS (The Winged Horse). The blessings quickly coming.

3. CYGNUS (The Swan). The Blesser surely returning.

Chapter III

Their Blessings in Abeyance

PISCES (The Fishes). The Redeemed blessed though bound.

1. THE BAND—, but binding their great enemy Cetus, the sea monster.

2. ANDROMEDA (The Chained Woman). The Redeemed in their bondage and affliction.

3. CEPHEUS (The King). Their Redeemer coming to rule.

Chapter IV

Their Blessings Consummated and Enjoyed

ARIES (The Ram or Lamb). The Lamb that was slain, prepared for the victory.

1. CASSIOPEIA (The Enthroned Woman). The captive delivered, and preparing for her husband, the Redeemer.

2. CETUS (The Sea Monster). The great enemy bound.

3. PERSEUS (The Breaker). Delivering His redeemed.



The Third Book
The Redeemer
(His Second Coming)
"The glory that should follow"
Chapter I

Messiah, The Coming Judge of All the Earth

TAURUS (The Bull). Messiah coming to rule.

1. ORION, Light breaking forth in the person of the Redeemer.

2. ERIDANUS (The River of the Judge). Wrath breaking forth for His enemies.

3. AURIGA (The Shepherd). Safety for the Redeemed in the day of that wrath.

Chapter II

Messiah's Reign as Prince of Peace

GEMINI (The Twins). The twofold nature of the King.

1. LEPUS (The Hare), or THE ENEMY trodden under foot.

2. CANIS MAJOR (The Dog), or SIRIUS, the coming glorious Prince of Princes.

3. CANIS MINOR (The Second Dog), or PROCYON, the exalted Redeemer.

Chapter III

Messiah's Redeemed Possessions

CANCER (The Crab). The possession held fast.

1. URSA MINOR (The Lesser Bear). The lesser sheepfold.

2. URSA MAJOR (The Great Bear). The fold and the flock.

3. ARGO (The Ship). The redeemed pilgrims safe at home.

Chapter IV

Messiah's Consummated Triumph

LEO (The Lion). The Lion of the Tribe of Judah aroused for the rending of the Enemy.

1. HYDRA (The Serpent). That old Serpent— Devil, destroyed.

2. CRATER (The Cup). The cup of Divine wrath poured out upon him.

3. CORVUS (The Crow, or Raven). Birds of prey devouring him.

 

For Signs and For Seasons



Such are the contents of this wondrous book that is written in the heavens. Thus has God been speaking and emphasizing and developing His first great prophetic promise of Genesis 3:15.

Though for more than 2,500 years His people had not this Revelation written in a book as we now have it in the Bible, they were not left in ignorance and darkness as to God's purposes and counsels; nor were they without hope as to ultimate deliverance from all evil and from the Evil One.

Adam, who first heard that wondrous promise, repeated it, and gave it to his posterity as a most precious heritage— ground of all their faith, the substance of all their hope, the object of all their desire. Seth and Enoch took it up. Enoch, we know, prophesied of the Lord's coming, saying, "Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment upon all" (Jude 14). How could these "holy prophets, since the world began," have recorded their prophecies better, or more effectually, or more truthfully and powerfully, than in these star-pictures and their interpretation? This becomes a certainty when we remember the words of the Holy Spirit by Zacharias (Luke 1:67-70):

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
For He hath visited and redeemed His people,
And hath raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David;
As He spake by the mouth of HIS HOLY PROPHETS
WHICH HAVE BEEN SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

The same truth is revealed through Peter, in Acts 3:20, 21: "He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you; whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

These words have new meaning for us, if we see the things which were spoken "since the world began," thus written in the heavens, which utter speech (i.e. prophecy), and show forth this knowledge day after day and night after night, the heritage of all the earth, and their words reaching unto the ends of the world.

This Revelation, coinciding as it does in all its facts and truths with that afterwards recorded "in the Volume of the Book," must have had the same Divine origin, must have been made known by the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit.

We now proceed to compare the two, and we shall see how they agree at every point, proving that the source and origin of this Divine Revelation is one and the same.

Second Advent

by Gay Brown


When will you return
Can you tell us what day
'Let no man deceive you'
Christ Jesus did say
Luke 21:7



Nation against nation
famines and war
troubles and earthquakes
sorrows and more
Matt 24:7



False prophets, seducers
will rise and show signs deceiving
the whole world, impregnating
their minds
Matt 24:24
2 Thess 2:9



And one who exalteth
himself above all
Jerusalem, Jerusalem
this temple will fall
Thess 2:4



Don't be taken by satan
when he comes on his steed
to conquer God's children
to satisfy his greed
Rev 6:2



He'll come at the 6th trump
get ready to fight
for he comes with deception
as an angel of light
2 Cor 11:14



The elect will stand ready
prepared for the test
by speaking in Spirit
to redeem all the rest
Matt 10:19



And the two sons of oil
walk in the light
preparing the way
with all power and might
Rev 11:16



The beast shall arise
the two prophets will die
all peoples and kindreds
with joy they all cry
Rev 11:17



Three and more days
they lie in the street
till life enters in them
and they stand to their feet
Rev 11:11



The crowds are afrightened
they shake with great fear
for the 7th trump has sounded
and Jesus is here
Rev 11:15



Heaven is opened
and beheld in our view
Dear Lord and saviour
called faithful and true
Rev 19:11



When the Lord himself comes
When the trump of God sounds
All the dead in Christ with Him
As He decends to the ground
1 Thess 4:14,16



We all shall be changed
In the wink of an eye to be
with our Lord as He comes
From on high
1 Cor 15:52



He comes on a white horse
Our King and Lord He
Will rule all the nations
with rod and a sword
Rev 19:15



Then Christ Jesus prevails
Satan bound by a chain
Cast into the pit and
There he remains
Rev 20: 1,2



For one thousand years
With Christ we shall reign
Till Satan is loosed
To deceive once again
Rev 20:7



And those who walk with him
Will be cast in the fire
With the Beast and the Prophet
And Satan the liar!
Rev 21:10



But for those who find life
What a day that will be
To bask in His glory
Throughout eternity


Written by Gay Brown



Hope you all enjoyed these

Deception

by Gay Brown



As he sits on his throne
Above the clouds so high
He surveys the heavens
From the earth to the sky
2 Thess 2:4



With his power and glory
No one can compare
He [looks] like a lamb
His countenance so fair
Rev13:11



He says , "worship [me] children".
"Come lie at [my] feet".
His plans for this world
Are almost complete
Thunder and lightening
Are at his command
"Miracles" and "healings"
Throughout the whole land
2 Thess 2:9, Rev 13:13



Singing [his] praises
With hearts full they cry
They claim [him] as savior
Without knowing why
2 Thess 2:11



Do [you] know who [he] is?
Do you have eyes to see?
This [isn't] our lamb
It's the dragon, so flee!!


Written by Gay Brown

Death Defeated

by Gay Brown



God so loved the whole world
After all we had done
He loved us so much
That He sent us His Son
John 3:16


Born of a virgin
Impossible you say?
His birth was quite certain
As He lay in the hay
Luke 2:7 & 2:12


The Heavens rejoiced
The angels proclaimed
A savior is born
And Christ Jesus is His name
Luke 2:10


He grew into manhood
None wiser than He
He knew of God's plan
To be nailed to a tree
Luke 2:52


He covered the landscape
As He healed and He taught
He cleaned out the temple
The thieves He all caught
Luke 4:37


The wicked despised Him
They sought Him to kill
He knew they would hang Him
Was all in God's will
Psalms 22:16


The twelve sat beside Him
He knew them by name
But one would betray Him
His life end in shame
Matt 23:23


The plotted against Him
They planned night and day
They offered some silver
To Judas one day
Matt 25:15,16


They brought Him to Pilate
He said not a word
He was willing to suffer
'Crucify Him', He heard
Matt 26: 63 & 27:14


The multitudes mocked Him
and cried, 'put Him to death!'
His mother sat weeping
As He took His last breath
Matt 27:31


The sun was darkened
The temple veil rent
The Spirit of Jesus
To God's hand it was sent
Luke 23:46


He was put in a tomb
But on third day
They came to the place
Found the stone rolled away
Matt 27:60 & Luke 24:12


Thus death was defeated
When Christ rose again
The King of all ages
The Savior of Men
Luke 24:16

A Savior's Birth

by Gay Brown



Mary a young Maiden, so lovely and fair
God chose her for glory, His Son she would bear.
Luke 1:31

She found Favor with God, the angel did say
He told her God's Spirit, would fill her that day
Luke 1:28, 1:30

She was filled with great wonder,
as she ran up the street
She went to the house, of her cousin to meet
Luke 1:39

They met at the door Mary's face how it shone
She told how this babe would come from God's throne
Elizabeth her cousin knew all this was true
Felt the presence of Jesus and her baby did too.
Luke 1:41

In her womb was a baby,
in three months it would come
John the Baptist the prophet a preacher, her son
Luke 1:36

Now Mary told Joseph What the angel had said
Then Joseph told Mary she had nothing to dread
He loved her so dearly, he had from the start
All according to God she was part of His heart
Matt 1:20

The cool of the evening, on a bright autumn day
Sat Mary on a donkey, Joseph leading the way
They traveled to Bethlehem, it took many a day
To the place of their birth, for some taxes to pay
Luke 2:3

As they entered the town, people stood all around
Joseph looked for a room, but none could be found
Luke 2:7

Late in the evening, in a manger of hay
Christ Jesus, our savior, was born on that day.
Luke 2:7

Shepherds tended their flocks, an angel did appear
Glory shone round about them, they shook with
great fear
Luke 2:9

Fear not, said the angel, I bring you good cheer
In the city of David, Christ Jesus is here
Luke 2:10

They smiled at each other, they left that same day
Found a babe in a manger, as the angel did say
Luke 2:15

The angels rejoiced, The wise men did too
The star shone so brightly, in the heavens so blue
Luke 2:1,4, Matt 2:2


Written by Gay Brown

The Flood

by Gay Brown



THE EARTH WAS CORRUPTED
WITH EVIL AND SIN
A PLACE OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS
WHERE PERFECTION HAD BEEN
GEN 6:11


THE FALLEN LOOKED DOWN
ON THE DAUGHTERS OF MAN
AND TOOK THEM TO WIFE
DISRUPTING GOD'S PLAN
GEN 6:2


THEY LEFT THEIR ABODE
FROM THE HEAVENLIES THEY CAME
THEY WERE LEWD AND PERVERTED
TOOK DELIGHT IN THEIR SHAME
JUDE 1:6, 2 PETER 2:4


AND CHILDREN WERE BORN
AND A NEW RACE BEGAN
MIGHTY AND SAVAGE
THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE LAND
GEN 6:4


AND GOD IN HIS ANGER
DEVISED A NEW PLAN
WOULD FLOOD EARTH WITH WATER
DESTROYING ALL MAN
GEN 6:7


NOW NOAH AND HIS FAMILY
WHOSE PEDIGREE WAS PURE
WOULD BE SAFE FROM DANGER
OF THAT GOD WAS SURE
GEN 6:9


SO GOD TOLD NOAH
TO BUILD A GREAT ARK
AND NOAH GOT BUSY
FROM DAYLIGHT TILL DARK
GEN 6:14


HE HAMMERED AND POUNDED
EACH NAIL HE MADE GAIN
HE WORKED ROUND THE CLOCK
TILL IT STARTED TO RAIN
GEN 7:12


THEY LAUGHED AND THEY MOCKED HIM
THEY THOUGHT HIM INSANE
TILL THE WATER WAS KNEE-DEEP
THEN THEY CALLED OUT HIS NAME


THE CLOUDS THEY BURST OPEN
THE FOUNTAINS DID TOO
THE MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED
IN AN OCEAN OF BLUE
GEN 7:11,12


Written by Gay Brown

The Fall

by Gay Brown



And God formed Adam
from the dust and the clay
He chiseled each feature
It took Him all day
Genesis 2:7


He breathed into this vessel
life from above
and placed in a soul
someone He could love
Genesis 2:7


He caused him to sleep
and he took from his side
a beautiful woman
he called her his bride
Genesis 2:21,22


Then He planted a garden
with beauty so rare
a place to inhabit
without worry or care
Genesis 2:8


Throughout the whole garden
were trees to behold
plum trees and pear trees
and fig trees untold
Genesis 2:9


In the midst of the garden
they were told [not] to [touch]
the tree of the knowledge
of evil and such
Genesis 2:9


With words of flattery
satan started to speak
poor eve was no match
she was humble and meek
Genesis 3:4


She took of his fruit
with pleasure she ate
then Adam joined in
thus sealing their fate
Genesis 3:6


She was wholly seduced
by the serpent you see
their innocence gone
they partook of the tree
Genesis 3:13


Their eyes now opened
they started to cry
victory for satan
for they knew they would die
Genesis 3:24


Written by Gay Brown

REBELLION

by Gay Brown


WHEN GOD FIRST CREATED
THIS WORLD WITH HIS HAND
THE STARS IN THE HEAVENS
WERE AT HIS COMMAND
GEN 1:2



SUCH BEAUTY AND SPLENDOR
WITH JUST ONE SMALL TOUCH
THE SONS SANG FOR JOY
HE HAD GIVEN THEM SO MUCH
JOB 38:7



THEN ONE WITH GREAT BEAUTY
THE BRIGHT MORNING STAR
THE ONE WHO PROTECTED
GOD'S THRONE NEAR AND FAR
EZEK 28:16, 17



HIS HEART FILLED WITH EVIL
HE WAS FULL OF FALSE PRIDE
HE WANTED [HIS] KINDOM
HE WOULD [NOT] BE DENIED
2 THESS 2:4



HIS WORDS WERE EFFECTIVE
HE KNEW JUST WHAT TO SAY
HE SMILED, OH SO SWEETLY
TO GET HIS OWN WAY
THEY LISTENED INTENTLY
NO ONE MADE A SOUND
AS HE FORE-TOLD OF RICHES
TO THOSE WHO STOOD ROUND
THEY NODDED THEIR HEADS
IT ALL SOUNDED SO GOOD
AS THEY STEPPED FROM GOD'S PRESENCE
AND WITH SATAN THEY STOOD
REV 12:4



THE SKY BECAME DARKENED
THE EARTH HE DID SHAKE
THE ONCE FRUITFUL PLACE
NOW VOID GOD DID MAKE
JER 4:23, 24




Written by Gay Brown

Hello all

This is something I ran across,from Let us Reason Ministries,thought it was interesting enough to share,hope you all enjoy it.


When we consider God, a being that is almighty who created everything that existed we don't usually think that there are things God cannot do. There are many things man can’t do, but there are also things God can’t do. That’s right God can’t do all things. It is not because He is unable to, that He is limited in power in any way. It is because of who He is in nature. There are guidelines that even God cannot step over. For example God cannot be God and not be God at the same time. He cannot create another God from a creature that would be made equal with himself. The secondary God would be derived from and dependent on the first so it would be finite. Since he had a beginning it could not be as powerful as its originator. One of the first requirements for being God is to be be infinite and eternal, so a created god does not qualify for the job description of being God.

So what can't He do?

1. It is impossible for God to lie. Can God make two plus two equal five? It is impossible for God to lie, so he is consistent with truth which has absolutes.His standard of right and wrong does not change.

Heb.6:18 He can’t lie = he can’t break a unconditional promise what he says he will fulfill. He is the truth, there is no darkness in him. He cannot go back on His Word.

When he told Abraham to take his only son and put him on the altar, Abraham knew that if God allowed him to have Isaac killed he would have had to raise him up back to life. This is because he already promised Abraham that through Isaac the promises of his Covenant would come.

God can never send another flood over the whole earth like he did in Noah's day. Its not that he doesn't have the ability, He can’t do it because He promised He never would do it again (the rainbow is there to remind us of this truth). God’s nature is inclined to truth which means He keep His promises.

2.Can God make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it? If he can’t lift it then he is not all powerful. Then the rock has become more powerful than God and whatever is more powerful than God is God. God has infinite qualities not finite, God can only do things that are possible he can’t make square circles or a two sided triangle. It is asking God to bring about a logically contradictory state to his own nature.

This is what is called a category mistake to say he can make something he can’t lift. Its like asking a bachelor what his wife’s name is? What does the color yellow taste like. Color doesn’t taste. Its not possible for God to make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it. If he can make it he can lift it. If he can create it , he can destroy it. . It does not show that God has a limit to his power which means he does not possess infinite power. This means whatever he created is under his jurisdiction under his control, it can never have equality.

"Whatever implies being and nonbeing simultaneously is incompatible with the absolute possibility which falls under divine omnipotence. Such a contradiction is not subject to it, not from any impotence in God, but because it simply does not have the nature of being feasible or possible. Whatever, then, does not involve a contradiction is in the realm of the possible with respect to which God is omnipotent. Whatever involves a contradiction is not within the scope of omnipotence because it cannot qualify for possibility. Better, however, to say that it cannot be done, rather than God cannot do it." (T. Aquinas Summa Theologica p. 163-164 , Volume I, ques. 15 ans. 3)

3.Can God stop being God or stop existing? The nature of God is infinite meaning no end. God's unchanging moral character is a moral absolute. This includes holiness, justice, love, mercy and truth. God is who He is forever and is the only constant thing (being) in the universe. Only created things subject to time and space which are of a non eternal substance can change. God could not change if he wanted to (which he would not ) Because he is the highest and ultimate state of perfection. Words fail to describe at this point the state God is in.

4. He is not free to act contrary to his nature that is permanent. Does this mean he is not all powerful? No- it means that as a perfect and unchangeable being His commands and actions are rooted in the ultimate good which flow from his nature. God's moral character does not change. "I the Lord change not "Mal.3:6. There is no shadow of change with God (Jm.1:17).

His nature is eternal. He cannot say tomorrow I’ll act like the devil for a while or sin as man does. What God has been, He will always be, (the I Am). He is completely self sufficient within himself.

5.God cannot sin, Holiness is part of his intrinsic nature, He cannot do otherwise.

6.God cannot learn anything new. Before He created anything He knew all about it. There is no progression in knowledge for God as their is with man. God has no limitations on anything that He can create.

7.God cannot answer every prayer you want but only those that are in accordance to His will being done on earth. He cannot answer prayers that would do the very opposite of His purposes.

8. God is always right-When God does something, it is not right because He did it. It is right because it is right. It is not good because God chose it, therefore it must be good! God chose it because it is good, God wills it because it is good, it’s not good simply because he wills it or chose it to be. God is not arbitrary or capricious. He knows the greater good because he possesses all knowledge. All of nature shows this to be true. Order is of the greater design and objective, chaos is not. To preserve life is the greater good, to take life is not, (exceptions are the rarity). This is because all flow from His moral nature. So while God is all powerful he cannot act or think contrary to his perfect eternal unlimited nature, which is the ultimate moral good.

Isn't good to know there is a being in charge of the whole universe who is perfect in his judgments and choices, keeps His promises and never does wrong. That should be a comfort for those who are for him instead of against him.

Pastor Roger

That study was not intended to be on cains fatherbut Israel,regardless of wheather you agree with the serpent seed doctrine you cant deny the study on israel and the Jews


but since you mentioned it here is seed from the strongs

1) seed, sowing, offspring

a) a sowing

b) seed

c) semen virile

d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children

e) of moral quality

1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)

f) sowing time (by meton)

In Genesis 3:15 God is speaking to the serpent, "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel." The bruising of the heel took place when Christ was nailed to the Cross. And finally, for those who still want further proof as to who the serpent really is; we read in Revelation 12:9, "and the great Dragon was cast out, that old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." Now can anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear have any doubt or confusion about Satan's own seed?


Think I will stay with my belief which I feel is clearly from the Bible,but thanks for your concern

Hello black

Thanks for your concern,and I do appreciate it

I have absolutly no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I am indeed saved.

I study with Pastor Arnold Maury of the Shepherds Chapel,Nick Goggins at biblestudysite.com and Roger Christopherson at the season.org

To answer your questions yes Jesus is the son of God

Here is how I see the trinity

1st 'facet' or 'part' of the Trinity

God (Yehovah 'Elohim = The Lord God), is the Father, the One and Only God Eternal!  He whom created everything, He whom has no beginning and has no end.

Exod 3:13-15
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (KJV)

2nd facet of the Trinity

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Son (Yehoshua = Yehovah the Savior, or, God Savior), He is God manifested (came) in the flesh, He is God in human form come to earth to save His creation from satan and their sins.  Jesus is not another God, He is God.

John 10:27-30 (Jesus speaking)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

3rd facet of the Trinity

Holy Spirit (tó pneúma tó hágion = The Spirit The Holy = The Holy Spirit) is the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Power of God in action. It is through the Holy Spirit of God that God interacts with His creation today, for He no longer walks with man face to face as He did with Adam, Noah, Abraham....., and He no longer is physically amongst us as He was when Jesus Christ walked the earth.  This is because we (as a peoples) fell short, we forsook Him, we left Him — He didn't leave us!  Below we see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, God's Spirit; not a separate 'person' or individual apart from God:


Quote

" Many portions of the Holy Bible are spiritually discerned with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who lives in the hearts of true believers. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD doesn't live in the hearts of the lost, and that's a HUGE reason why lost people have no chance to understand the Holy Bible.)"

Reply

Are you implying that Im lost? If so I assure you that I am not,but many of us who claim we are,I'll let Christ finish the rest,

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Now about my account I started with n2thelight first,but for some reason I could not get on,it kept sending me back to activate account after many times I decided to try a new one sent to my other account,so if you can will you please delete n2thelight


I know that Christ died for me and that the only way to the Father is through Him.

Again I thank you for your concern however as I have stated I am more than ready,can't wait to tell you the truth to stand before my Father

Now as far as that cult thing goes I feel that a cult is when you are not able to think for yourself,those three that I study with do nothing but incourage you to do just that and to not take their word for anything but to check it out in the Holy Bible which I do.

I grew up in the church and believed in the rapture among other things for most of my life,it wasnt until I did start to study for myself that I found out that what I had been taught just didnt add up.

Again I to do not wish to argue I just like to plant seeds and if one dosent have eyes to see I have no problem with it

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).

Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.

Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.

Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.

Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.

2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).

Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....

Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.

Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...

Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.

I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.

Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?

ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.

Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;

Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...

Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...

Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...

Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).

Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.

Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.

Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.

Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.

Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.

The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.

Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS


Just a few questions


Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION

Pastor Roger

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"It is quite evident that you have not thoroughly studied the scriptures. I believe that Brother Tom is right. I will not argue these points with you either. I will suggest though that you go back to the Bible without your preconceived ideas and do some further study, praying that God open your eyes to His message before you do."

Reply

Oh but I have studied the scriptures,thats why I don't believe in a rapture.Contrary to what you all think Im not here to argue either all I did was state what I believe to be scriptual,.

No one will stand before God with me and Im more than ready to make that stand before Him based on what I believe


Dreamweaver

Lets look at John

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.

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"If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation. Take a good look at the differences between the verses in scripture which describe the 2nd Coming, and the scriptures which describe the Rapture"

Reply

Herein lies the problem as to how I see scripture,people seem to think that the Day of the Lord and our gathering back to Christ(rapture)are different I hold the view that they are one and the same.

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"The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together."

Reply

Question,where are the dead now?Once we die we instantly return to the Father,to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

Why do you think God has to remove His people in order to protect them,when the plaques fell on Egypt did God remove His people?No!He did not


I have read the scriptures you provided concerning the return with the saints and the rapture and I will go over them in my next post


First I would like to take a look at Matt 24

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

This is the subject of this chapter,when will you return.To me if there was to be a rapture this chapter would had been the perfect place to teach it,yet nowhere in this chapter was it taught

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

This is the number one warning, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Deception will be the foremost thing to guard against in the latter days, that will consummate the end of this age. This means that these events will not happen all at one time, but will take place over a period of time. These warnings or signs that Jesus is about to give us, are the seven seals that are given us in the Book of Revelation.

These are an exact overlay of the seven events, which are the seven seals that we should be watching for today

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Christ said for us to endure till the end,not raptured

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Up until this point in Matt I have not seen a rapture,yet in verse 21 we are told that there shall be tribulation

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

"Those days" are the days of this tribulation. If God did not shorten the time and reign of the Antichrist, no man in the flesh body would be spiritually saved, and not deceived by Satan the Antichrist. Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that this time of the Antichrist, the desolator, was one half of one week of years. That is one half of seven years, and it has been shortened to five [5] months.

Again I ask where is the rapture,if there was a rapture why would the days need to be shortened?

Ephesians 6 tells us the purpose that God's elect will be on earth, and it will be to fight against Satan, and those wicked spiritual powers. That is why you need the spiritual armor on and in place, for the warfare will be a spiritual battle, fought will words and ideas, it will be fought with the very word of God, for Satan will twist that Word, to make it a lie, when he and his forces use it against you.

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent. There are two tribulations, and you had better know the difference.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


If Christ just told us that He was not returning until after the trib how can there be a rapture before?

Pastor Roger

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"There are many scriptures that tell us there will indeed be a rapture. There is absolutely no doubt that it will happen. The only question and disagreement that a person might have is in when it will take place."

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What you all call a rapture,I choose to call it our gathering back to Christ,which will not happen until the 7th trump,the fact that you all can't even figure out when(pre mid or post should sound alarms we will go thru the tribulation,thats a fact,and if you think not please show where in scripture christians are gone before the trib

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"I've heard there are a few people who believe this. I would simply say these folks have not done sufficient Bible study to have an opinion at all on this subject. Share the following portion of Scripture with Mr. Buzzard and ask him to explain what it is"

Reply

And I would say that the rapturist have not done a sufficient study either for the simple fact that the rapture is not biblical,with that said lets look at the scripture yous provided

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.


This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer

 Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.


Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.


Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul was a Hebrew scholar, not a Greek scholar. He studied under one of the greatest Hebrew teachers of His time. Paul spoke street Greek. The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"