[make]

Hello Board:

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 

Exd 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh thy Elochim am a jealous Elochim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It has been my experience that most Christians only hold to the second verse in this commandment.  However, the first verse is just as much a command as the second.  We are not to make images of animals, people, or celestial bodies.  This command further clarified here:

Deu 4:15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that Yahweh spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest  ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which Yahweh thy Elochim hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Does anyone dispute that my position is true?

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Pro 19:29 Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.

Pro 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Pe 3:8-9 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

In Yahweh's Truth and Love,

Christ's Serf

[even]

Hello Asaph, sorry to take so long.

I'm sorry about this post. I do not know how to itemize each response in the correct fashion as you did.

What I do is, while in "post reply" mode,  I copy the section I want to quote and paste it to my message; then highlight it and click on the "quote" button above the text box.

Messiah was cut off at his crucifixion after the 7 and 62 weeks which adds up to 69 weeks. This leaves 7 years (1 week) to pass in order to make an end of sin for Israel. Seventy weeks are apportioned-to make an end of sins. So for Israel as a nation after Jesus died for the sins of the world they still have 7 years of God's dealings with them. If you count 7 years from the cross you will see that there is no dealing with Israel in the magnitude of what is prophesied in Revelations. So the 7 years (70th week) has to come later to be fulfilled. Even AD 70 falls way short of all things recorded in Revelations. So that means we are still looking for the beginning of the 70th week.

First, would you agree that in prophecy any given time span usually does not contain an interruption?  Second, you say that Israel still has "7 years of God's dealings with them".  This is rather vague.  What the passage says is that the 70 weeks are determined "to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins," etc.  It doesn't say that if they don't make an end of sins then He will no longer have any "dealings" with them.  Also, you presume that these "dealings" are connected to the prophecies in Revelations.  Here's the best interpretation that I've seen so far:

The 69 weeks end when Messiah is announced.  Note that it says "after" 69 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, not "at the end of" the 69th week.  "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" refers to the Messiah, not the Antichrist.  Notice that it says that he shall "confirm" the covenant, not "make" a covenant.  Many say that this verse means that the Antichrist will make a covenant between Israel and her enemies, but the word "make" is not in here.  "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" means that in the midst of the week, when Messiah is cut off, Messiah will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease by instituting the new covenant through His death, in which there is no more sacrifice for sin.  As for the rest of the week, the disciples still stayed in Israel and preached there for several years after Jesus' death; until persecution drove them abroad.  This was when the kingdom was taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth fruits, and this ended the 70th week.

There is a reason for that. The words "I saw" were added because of the conjunction "and". This conjunction introduces a new part of the vision not to be included with those on thrones.

The Greek word in that instance is "kai", and it is a general conjuction.  It can be translated and, also, even, indeed, or but.  If it is translated "even" then it would read "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them ... even the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus...".

No. Not in every case. Paul did used shrewdness at times to avoid premature death. Check out the book of Acts. Why to you think Christians were scrattered. It was to avoid persecution. When persecution cannot be avoided then we are to take it joyfully and boldly in His strength.

Indeed, when persecution cannot be avoided then it should be received with joy.  But do you think that there are any cases in which persecution could be avoided but it should not be?  If so, please specify.

Christ's Serf

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Many take this to mean that on the cross the Father forsook Jesus.  I'm not so sure about that.  For one thing, Jesus appears to be quoting Psalms 22:1.

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

This psalm contains many Messianic prophecies which were being fulfilled at that time.

Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], 
Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 

Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 

If Jesus was forsaken does that mean that He wasn't God, or that there were two Gods?  If not, then in what sense was He actually forsaken?

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

Asaph:

Are you partial preterist in your understanding?

No, I'm not.  It's just that I've never heard of the 70 weeks being brought up in discussing the Rapture, and I never thought of the 70 weeks as equalling any more than a year per day.  Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

Paul was relying on the readers understanding of the nature of harvest. He assumed they would understand that first fruits is connected with the ingathering of the main harvest.

Even if this is true, does any author say that the "main harvest" is split between the "general harvest" and the "late harvest" of those beheaded for the Mark of the Beast?

I take Rev 20 as literal, only the beheaded are raised at that point and yet are counted at being included in the first resurrection.

But Rev. 20 doesn't say that only the beheaded were raised.  Did you read what I said about the words "I saw" being added by the translators?

My interpretation is warranted and supported by scripture and you are entitled to disagree.

If your interpretation is the truth then I am not entitled to disagree with you, because none of us are entitled to disagree with the truth.

I think we both agree that we will experience the persecution by antichrist.

Yes, I agree with that.  Let me ask you this: do you think that Christians should try to remove themselves from people who wish to persecute them?

Christ's Serf

Hello Asaph:

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They stood. They had legs, feet and hands. This is a description of resurrected bodies.

In the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:23-24) the rich man is described as having eyes, however, this is before the resurrection of the unrighteous.  Furthermore, the unrighteous are never promised resurrected bodies.  Therefore, the mention of a body part does not necessitate that a bodily resurrection has occured.  It may imply it, but it doesn't necessitate it.

The phrase, the ones who come translates a Greek substantival participle. In the context, the universally innumerable multitude is composed of "the ones who come." The participle in and of itself does not speak to issue of the timing of their arrival. However, this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group. This is supported by the following statement.

1)  The phrase "the ones who come" is made up of two Greek words.  Which word contains the substantival participle?

The fact that every member of the universally innumerable multitude has "washed and made white" his robes removes any possibility that martyrdom is the action described here.

Why?

The bible says we will be in the likeness of his resurrection. If He was not raised then neither will we.

Agreed and agreed.

First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later.

Reference?  The 1 Cor. passage doesn't state that.

The first resurrection is pictured by the harvest in nature. The harvest comes in stages.

Yes, harvests do come in stages, but is the event which is called "the first resurrection" ever referred to as coming in stages?  You can't take a parabolic term like 'harvest' and add more meanings to it then are given in Scripture.  For instance, we should be as harmless as doves, and doves also lay eggs; that doesn't mean that we should lay eggs.

The fact that only the beheaded are mentioned here is significant. I need not restate my stand here.

I found an important fact about Rev. 20:4.  The words "I saw" were added to the text by the English translators; I think it was an error to do so.  Without the addition the verse reads:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, ...

Hence, the ones beheaded for the witness of Jesus are actually part of those who are sitting on the thrones.

I believe that Rev 12 is partially parenthetical. It fills in details of what this universal war is all about. I do not think chapter 11 is parenthetical at all.

Neither do I.  I think that from the first seal to the seventh trumpet it is chronological, then it is parenthetical between the trumpets and the vials of wrath.

In 11:18 judgement is taking place where God himself is rewarding the saints. I believe this is the judgement seat of Christ.
In 20:4 who are they that sat upon thrones? I believe these are those who received their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and are now on thrones judging others. You see judgement was given unto them.

I agree.  So far in my mind the time sequence is: seventh trumpet, rapture, saints given judgement, saints sit on thrones and judge.

But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?

Actually, I didn't say anything about the 70th week, that was part of the quote of the commentator that you mentioned.  To be honest, I don't see how the 70th week extends beyond a few years after Christ's death; but maybe there's a connection and I never saw it.

Christ's Serf

[And the seventh angel sounded]

Hello Asaph:
No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.
No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet.

After conducting my own study(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1148163646-6153.html#52), I disagree.  In the phrase "the last trump" the word "last" is separate from "trump", and the word "trump" is the same word translated as "a trumpet", "salpigx".  The phrase "the trumpet shall sound" is all one word, "salpizo".  If the "last" had refferred to the sounding of the trumpet then it would have been the "last salpizo", not the "last salpigx".

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21.

No where in the Exodus passage is any trumpet referred to as "the trumpet of God".

These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. ... Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you deny that this describes the Rapture and subsequent judgement?  It plainly says that He is giving reward to His servants, do you deny that this reward includes the immortal body described in the 1 Cor. Rapture passage?

The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.

Please specify.

Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.

Where does he get his timing for this "great trumpet"?  As you can see in the beginning of the verse Isaiah is speaking of "that day".  He has been talking of "that day" for a long time.  Here's another thing that he says about "that day".

Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].  And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Compare it with these verses:

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption (at the last trumpet, v. 52), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet?

There's no indication here that they were Raptured.  I think that they were in heaven because they were killed.  Is there some reason to think otherwise?

There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.

Yes, the Lord's coming does shorten the days of persecution, but does that tell us anything about how long we're gong to be persecuted before Jesus shortens the days?

After they leave there will be yet another group that will be resurrected later.

You're presuming that the Rev. 7 group were resurrected.  Is there any indication that this group has received their glorified bodies at the time they were mentioned?

Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.

Immediately after Revelation 11 is the prophecy of the woman with twelve stars who gave birth to a man child.  This (I think) has always been taken to be a parable to the birth of Christ.  Hence, at this point, Revelation jumps out of chronological sequence with the preceding chapters.  I think that Rev. 11:18 and 20:4 are describing the same event.  Look at the parrellels and let me know if you disagree. 

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

Hello Asaph:

Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole.

No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.

Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection."

No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

I'll reply to your other post in a bit.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth

Christ's Serf

Hello all,

Sorry I've been gone so long, and I don't even have time for a full post now, so I'll make a quick response to Pilgrim.

Pilgrim:

1)  In what way is my line of reasoning faulty as regards the Scriptures that I brought up?

2)  You've said that the Holy Spirit can be everywhere and yet not be performing in certain capacities.  If "the restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, couldn't the 2 Thess. passage simply be saying that the Holy Spirit will no longer restrain, even though he is still present?

Christ's Serf

DreamWeaver:

I agree with the verse that you quoted entirely:  The Holy One will keep the church of Philidelphia safe from the hour of trial which is coming upon this world.  Are you applying this passage to all Christians?  If so, why?

And why would the church being kept safe require the Rapture?  Couldn't it just mean that He's going to show them a place in the wilderness where the forces of the Antichrist won't get them?

Have you found any problem with the logic that I used in the passages which I presented?

Christ's Serf

This thread presents the doctrine that the Rapture will take place after the Mark of the Beast, commonly called the post-tribulation Rapture.

1Cr 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Rapture will not occur until the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelations. You can read about them sometime.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (i.e., pre-cede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise before the living are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Hello Board:

I live north of Fairbanks Alaska.  I don't have my own Internet and can only log on when I come into town, which is usually once or twice a week.

Love in Yahweh's Holy Name,

Christ's Serf