Hello FoundTheLight,

We don't use man's tags, labels, and denominations here very much because they cause such confusion and mean so many different things to different people. So, I'm personally not interested in a discussion that requires so much guessing. Some terms cause less confusion than others, but I find that the Holy Bible and plain English are more than sufficient.

Maybe someone else would be interested in such a discussion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:20-21 NASB  yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

I don't understand the comment about guessing.  Everything I have said has been backed up with plain scripture.

Reformed theology has been called "evil" and "exclusionary" in this thread.

I find that attitude to be un-Christian and exclusionary.

If you want me to say that I believe that the Bible teaches that the Bible teaches Pre-destination and not Free-Will.  It does and I do.  I have made that plain.  

I have given many verses in defense of that position.  Verses that you have studiously ignored.

Yes God would like all men to be saved.  Do you honestly believe that if that was His definite Will that all would not be saved?

I like the way John Owen the 17th century Puritan Pastor put it:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1.   All the sins of all men.
2.   All the sins of some men, or
3.   Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1.   That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2.   That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3.   But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

I think there's been a bit of a miscommunication error around here...lol. I don't think he's disagreeing with ya BEP's...not from the way i read his posts. I happen to agree with quite a bit of the things he's saying. It seems to me that you (foundthelight) have taken a very historical approach. I don't fault you for defending Reformed Theology. I think in common terms wouldn't that be also known as Protestantism? Could ya clarify on that one? I don't think there's much disagreement as there is miscommunication of words. I could be seeing this wrong or something, but I'd like to read more of what you have to say found...your idea of starting a thread simply for Reformed Theology is a good idea...i'd like to see it. Grace and peace to you brother.

In Christ,
Joshua

Thank you Joshua,

The Reformation is what started Protestantism.  However, whith the freedom from the rule of the Roman church, Protestantism split into many branches with differing opinions on what the Bible tells us.  

FoundTheLight Said:

I have already stated that I intend to defend reformed theology.

My question is; Why won't you, or Blackeyedpeas, in a spirit of Christian love, directly address the verses and questions I have raised?  Please show me my error on these verses.

Hello FoundTheLight,

First, you are very vague about which theology you are talking about. "Reformed Theology" is an extremely broad term used by tons of folks, some Biblical and some NOT.

Second, there are numerous replies with considerable detail and Christian love. I, for one, still don't know what you are agreeing or disagreeing with. Maybe we would understand what you are trying to defend if you answer the easy questions in our posts.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

What I mean by Reformed Theology is the theology which came directly out of the Reformation in response to the false teachings of the Roman Church.  That is where the term Reformed Theology came from, as it was an attempt to reform the faith and put it back in line with what the Bible taught.  This was defined by such men as Luther, Melanchthon, and Calvin.  Later came Knox, Owens, Spurgeon and others.  These men sought to express their faith in terms of what the Bible taught, not in what the Church taught.  Remember that the Roman church placed the teachings of the Church on a higher plane than the Bible.  Whereas the Refomers believed and taught "Sola Scriptura" where the Bible is the final judge of the teachings of the church.  If the teachings contradict the Bible they are wrong.  The Roman church would not accept this.

From this comes such things as the Canons of Dort, the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, The Scots Confession, and the Westminster Confession all of which sought to express the main concepts of of Reformed theology in a condensed form.


Rather that argue needlessly, what if I were to create a new topic, Reformed Theology, where I could post a series of essays on the major points?  I am no theologian and as questions come in I may not be able to answer instantly.

What to you think?

[The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.]

Hi FoundTheLight,

Are you saying that God does not call all to His saving grace? The Bible is quite clear that God does call all and wants all to accept Him through Jesus Christ.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All men are called to Gods saving grace. It is but for us to accept His love for us or to reject it.

I have already stated that I intend to defend reformed theology.  

My question is; Why won't you, or Blackeyedpeas, in a spirit of Christian love, directly address the verses and questions I have raised?  Please show me my error on these verses.

Tom,

I will state this as plainly as I can without the scripture references.

The Bible is the Inspired Word of God

The Psalmist and Paul said that we are incapable of choosing God on our own.

Jesus said that we cannot come come to Him unless the Father sends or draws us.

We cannot be saved without having our ears and hearts opened by the Father through the Holy Spirit, for this is what Jesus plainly meant when He said that the Father has to draw us.

Then, and only then, when we hear the Gospel we will respond to it and reach out for the promise of salvation.

This means that it is not through our own action of Will that we accept Christ, but rather through the opening of our ears by the Holy Spirit that we receive the free gift of Grace.

We don't need lavish theater productions.  We need plain unvarnished preaching of the Gospel.  Jesus died to pay for our sins.  We must repent of our sin and accept Him as our Lord and Savior!

[HEARING becomes a loving and personal invitation from GOD. It is this invitation that draws the lost to Christ, and every Christian remembers this invitation as one of the high points of their life. It's an interesting thought that JESUS is also known as THE WORD. THE WORD is GOD and belongs to GOD, and we all know that THE WORD is more powerful than any two-edged sword. One could continue with the simple thoughts and say with certainly that GOD sends and transmits HIS WORD through willing servants. SO, it would be accurate to say that everything is initiated and begins with GOD.]

Hello FoundTheLight,

First, I hope that I've welcomed you to Christians Unite. Just in case I haven't, WELCOME!!

I would have a very simple and general reply to your question, but I would be interested in the ideas of many others with your question.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

This is really a beautiful and very simple thought when you think about it. HEARING becomes a loving and personal invitation from GOD. It is this invitation that draws the lost to Christ, and every Christian remembers this invitation as one of the high points of their life. It's an interesting thought that JESUS is also known as THE WORD. THE WORD is GOD and belongs to GOD, and we all know that THE WORD is more powerful than any two-edged sword. One could continue with the simple thoughts and say with certainly that GOD sends and transmits HIS WORD through willing servants. SO, it would be accurate to say that everything is initiated and begins with GOD.

Almighty God knew the exact moment you would hear THE WORD that drew you to CHRIST in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. HE also knew whether you would accept or reject HIS WORD. HIS foreknowledge was and is everything. Again, this does not hint or suggest that any person was programmed as a robot to reject CHRIST. Countless portions of precious Scripture clearly state that JESUS died for all, and none will be rejected. JESUS does not force anyone to reject HIM. If rejection is involved, it is the rejection of JESUS by the individual person, NOT the rejection of the person by JESUS.

To boil things down to the most simple form, there is only one unpardonable sin: rejection of JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. Every Christian knows that ONLY the Blood of JESUS on the Cross makes this possible. JESUS was and is the LIGHT of the WORLD. JESUS came into the world to save all sinners, not just some, but many rejected HIM.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 2:11-14 NASB  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

2 Peter 3:9 NASB  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Romans 10:16-17 NASB  However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

John 3:16-18 NASB  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Tom,

I thank you for your kind welcome to the board.  I pray that any discussions we have will lead to greater glory for God our Father.

I do not normally come to a board and respond as I have so early in my membership.  However, things have been said about Reformed theology which I cannot sit by and ignore.  I say this not out of anger, but rather, out of the understanding that many false and scurrilous things have been taught by those who have not studied the teachings of the reformers and that those things have been passed down from generation to generation as truth.  

I pray that, if my understanding is incorrect, the Holy Spirit will use this forum to show me my error.  The converse also applies.

There are a few things in your latest post that I would address.

1. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

You are correct in that we must hear the Gospel in order to come to faith.  That is why Satan is so active in our society to remove the word of God from our daily lives and substitute the things we see in our movies and on TV.

Rom 10:14-15
(14)  But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
(15)  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"


2.   HEARING becomes a loving and personal invitation from GOD. It is this invitation that draws the lost to Christ, and every Christian remembers this invitation as one of the high points of their life.

You are correct in saying this.  The question is; how are we, as sinners, able to respond to this invitation?  As Paul says;

Rom 3:9-20
(9)  What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
(10)  as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
(11)  no one understands; no one seeks for God.
(12)  All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
(13)  "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
(14)  "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
(15)  "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16)  in their paths are ruin and misery,
(17)  and the way of peace they have not known.",
(18)  "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
(19)  Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
(20)  For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.


If, as Paul says; "no one understands; no one seeks God", how can we in our "Free Will" make that decision to ask Christ into our lives as Lord and Savior?  What is it that makes understand our sin and reach out in repentance and faith?  

Again we turn to Paul;

Eph 2:4-5
(4)  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
(5)  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Eph 2:8
(  For by grace you have been saved through faith.  And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

We are saved through grace by faith.

"And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

This gift of Grace, this gift of faith, is given to us through the calling of the Holy Spirit.  

As Jesus said;

Joh 6:44
(44)  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

As Paul affirmed, although the words of God Himself do not need confirmation;

Rom 8:13-14
(13)  For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(14)  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Rom 8:29-30
(29)  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(30)  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The Word of God plainly says that we are dead in our sin and cannot respond to the preaching of the Gospel unless we are called by the Holy Spirit.  

To say that we can respond without the call of the Holy Spirit is to say that we can be saved through our own strength and works, which is a lie.

Yours in Christ,

Willis

The first view is, of course, correct. We are "predestinted" in that God does know a priori who will accept His Grace, and who won't. (Jeremiah 1:7). We still have the Free Will to chose or not on our own, but like Job, God knows how we will fare in the tribulations of this world.

God's desire is that ALL should be saved. That is part of our commision to preach the Gospel, to bring the Light of the World to others.

Can you please explain your view with scripture and in light of the following verses?  

Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

(Rom 8:29)  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

(Rom 8:30)  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Thanks!

Oneonta Tigers

Minor league games are a lot more fun to watch, and you can afford to take your kids.

Let us ignore the works based theologies such as what the Roman Catholic (RC) Church preaches.

That leaves us the two positions that have been presented in this thread on salvation.

The one is that The Lord's death on the cross was sufficient for all who will take the step of believing in him.  Note that this requires action on our part.  That we must make that decision and God is waiting for us with open arms.  It is all about our "Free Will".  We can accept or reject as we choose.  

This is a variation of what is called "Arminian" theology.  

As was pointed out earlier, we cannot take that step without hearing the Gospel;

Rom 10:14  But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

The other position is called "Reformed" theology.  In Reformed theology the question is asked how do we come to have faith?  Is our faith due to our Free Will decision or is it due to God's action?

Paul said;

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Is this gift of God that Paul speaks of God's grace or is it the gift of faith?

Let us look at what the Lord had to say;

Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 6:47  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Joh 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64  But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65  And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Who does the Father grant this belief to?

Paul said;

(Rom 8:28)  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

(Rom 8:29)  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

(Rom 8:30)  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

The Reformed position is that if the decision to come to Christ is of our "free will" and not of God's will, then that decision is a Work of man in which they can boast.  "I chose Christ"  "I am saved because I stood before the church and said that I chose Christ."  These are, in the Reformed view, boasts.

The Reformed view is that we come to faith because of and by God's decision before time, His call and His gift of grace, not by some decision of our own.

And again we cannot respond to God's call without hearing the Gospel;

Rom 10:14  But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"


I praise God for the Good News!

Thank you all for your welcomes!

Hi!

My name is Wilis.  I live in Central New York with my wonderful wife and two boys.  I love the Lord and only wish to serve Him!