1Tim

I posted that study under the General Theology sections.  I was going to put where to find it....but you know I thought of a better idea....LINKS!!  Those things are great...they like allow you to link stuff from one page to the next...what a great concept....DUH

Here it is

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=12433.0

Pt 2

Later in Acts 10:45-46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, becaue that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Here is the second instance mentioned of speaking with tongues.  Notice again it starts off with "they of the circumcision", who is that?  Jewish people.  Now it does state which believed so these are converted Jews who have found Christ.  But it says they were astonished which implies they were amazed at the action.  It was a sign unto them of the power of Jesus and to re-inforce their faith.  But what were they amazed at?  the gift of speaking in other languages was poured out to the Gentiles and not just the Jews.  And again it is Peter and the sort who are speaking and everyone is able to understand them no matter where they came from or what language they spoke.  So the language is known and like before it is their own language and not a new language or unknown language or secret language or anything of that nature.

Now that we have seen speaking with tongues in action and see what it is, let us take a look at what we often see today and see if that is Biblical.  Let us take a look at what the Bible has to say about speaking in an unknown tongue.  You mean to tell me, Brother Jerry, that there were people speaking gibberish back in early church?!  Yes I am.  The problem of peope speaking gibberish is nothing new.

So now we start looking at what Paul had to say...and he did say alot.  First one thing Paul states about it is found in 1 Corinth 12:10-11 "To another the working of miracles, to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues; But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Here Paul is talking about the gifts which God may give us.  We see the gift of miracles and such.  We see "diverse kinds of tongues" as in being fluent in many different languages. "interpretation of tongues" as in being able to interpret written languages and spoken word.  Maybe not able to speak but able to interpret at least one language.  So here Paul refers to tongues as different languages.

Now turn a couple of pages over to chapter 14.  Here is where Paul really gets into it.

1 Corinth 14:2-4 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.  But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.  He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

Here we see it pretty simple.  The person who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not people but to God, for no one can understand him.  Paul is not saying that this a good thing.  If you are to be preaching to people it does not good to preach in a language the cannot understand.  Paul even tells us towards the end there why someone would speak in an unknown tongue that no one can understand "edifieth himself", in otherwords that person is doing it for their own glory and not that of the church.

Skip down to 1 Corinth 14:9-11 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.  There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Paul mentions that there are many voices in the world.  Using voices to mean languages.  He goes on to state that they are all significant.  In other words they all are a means of communication.  Paul states if he does not know the language then he will like a barbarian and vice versa.  And at the beginning Paul says that if you utter words you should do it in an understandable way, otherwise how are we to tell what you are saying?  IF not you are just speaking into the air (talking to youself).

1 Corinth 14:13-19 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Paul tells us here that if anyone speaks in an unknown tongue then there should be 2-3 and no more there.  The first to speak, the second to interpret.  Then the second to speak and the 3rd to interpret.  Basically Paul lets us know that one person should not interpret what it was they were saying.  If a man gets up and speaks gibberish then tells you what it was he was saying, you should Biblically tell him to sit down and shut up and wait for the interpreter to get there

So in a nutshell we see that speaking with tongues is Biblical.  But speaking in an unknown tongue is not.  We have seen examples and guidance.  Paul has provided us a way to meter and weigh the value of someone speaking in a strange tongue.  If it is unknown to us that does not mean it is not a language.  For example I probably would not recognize nor understand Swahili if I heard it.  But that does not mean it is not a language.  I would just need to get an interpreter.  Paul told us to have 2 at least for a couple of reasons...If there is one person and he can speak both Swahili and English why is he talking in Swahili if only to translate to English?! But take a load off and get an interpreter to interpret.  Also you then do not have to worry as much about putting too much faith in one persons preaching of the word....ie misinterpret or translate. 

So we see that the purpose of speaking with tongues is for a sign.  The sign is for the Jews because they require a sign.  Not only does Paul state this but if you read through the Gospels you will see quite often a Jewish group asking Jesus for a sign.  So speaking in tongues is a sign for the Jews, to emphasize that the power is coming from God.  And the tongues that is spoken is not in an unknown or gibberish or anything but it is their own language.  So you would see the person speaking but hear them in your own language.  This is greatly different than what we see in some churches today.  You get nothing but a confusing babel of gibberish.  And the key word there is confusion...what did Paul state in 1 Corinth 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion..."

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Speaking in Tongues is Biblical?!?

Ok first off many people now days think of the modern Charismatic movement in which people will get together and in the middle of service or something the Holy Ghost comes through and suddenly everyone is speaking in a gibberish.  And they call this speaking in tongues.

And there is basis for this in the Bible.  I am not certain what Bible it is that there is basis for this, but that is what they will say.  They may even say that Paul spoke in tongues.  Here we will take a look at what the Bible states about speaking in tongues and things of that nature.

First off the word tongue or tongues is referring to one of two things.  Either the tongue , the muscle in your mouth used to lick a sucker.  Or a language.  A language being a series of words built into sentences and phrases that allow for communication between at least 2 people.  Usually associated with a country, region, or nation.

As early as Gen 10:5 we see the use of the word tongue to describe language.  "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their family, in their nations"  

Isaiah 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory."  God lets us know that at one day he will gather up to him all people by their nations and even by the language they speak.

But what we end up finding is that in the NT is where the movement to speak in tongues comes from.  They will site some verses in Acts and the Corinthians.  But let us take a look at some of what the Bible has to say about tongue and tongues.

First the Bible lets us know what speaking in tongues is for.  Take a look at Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"  So to speak in tongues is for signs. Now take a quick look at 1 Corinthians 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom"  So signs such as speaking in tongues is for confirmation and a sign to the Jews.

So one thing we see is that tongues (plural) is a good thing and is Biblical.  What we will find out is that when referring to speaking in tongues is mentioned they are known tongues or languages.  But unknown tongue(s) will be a bad thing as shown by the Bible and when people speak in an unknown tongue or language it is cause for confusion which God is not the author of.

So take a look over in Acts 2:4-12 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Now this is the first case we see of speaking in tongues.  And we see that everyone was filled with the Holy Ghost.  So we know that to predicate speaking in tongues is due to an act by the Holy Spirit.  And we see that they began to speak with other tongues.  Now who is mentioned here in the next verse.  "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven".  Earlier how did we see nations also divided?  By their tongue or their language.  So here we have many devout Jews from different nations that speak different languages.  The Holy Spirit comes down and fills those preaching so that they speak in tongues.  And what happens?  All of the Jews from all of the different laguages can understand them.  It was not because they understood a new language, some hidden unknown language, but that those preaching understood them in their own language.  Those that came from Mesopotamia understood what was being said in his own language not a different one.  And what do they say about it?  "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God"  It is a sign to those Jews there that they are able to understand these people in their own language.

End Pt 1

Stockbridge was a bit off of 94 in between Jackson and Ann Arbor. 

Brother welcome to CU.

I am sure you will find nothing but loving hearts and steadfast prayers for you and all that you do here.

What part of MI you currently situated around.  I originally hail from a little town called Stockbridge. 

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Amen to that story.  A true showing of the seed of Jesus that missionaries plant in the world.  And the watering God gives them through continued love and inspiration.

I have not seen the movie yet but saw a documentary on the movie and the lives of those in the movie....truly inspiring.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Now that just looks real pretty.

Maybe by the time I hit my midlife they will be selling that around here

Brother Jerry

Amen,


But now imagine if we dropped tons of those leaflets over the country then dress up the military in red and blue...
LOL

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

1Tim

Tongues

I will gather up that study and post it under a new thread.  It is a very enlightening study actually.  So look for it soon (within next week).  I will put it in the theology section

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

1Tim

Time Reply:
Sorry it swayed towards confusion on the post.

The simplist way to state it would be that Time is irrelevant to the existance of God.  But since God created time for us and we are relevant to God then time itself is relevant to God. 

Maybe that helps, I hope

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

I enjoy a good fantasy book every now and then as well.  Salvatory, Adams, Brust, and more. 

I spend more time in my Bible and study material both spiritual and professional than anything else but when I just want to kick back and relax.  It is fantasy/action/suspense/thriller type of things. 

Welcome to the boards.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

I would agree that in many aspects of this linssue we would have to disagree.  And reasons are obviously not based on anything other than personal experience.

I am similar to you in that I like to know what the original text said.  And there are times I pull out a lexicon or similar to check the definition.  And I can also say that my pastor is a teacher, a preacher, and a pastor of great love for God and a heart that is focused only on Jesus.  With that in mind I can also say that as far as original language then I think I can safely say I know more than he does.  That does not make me any more a pastor than him or any less of a pastor than anyone else.

If you take a look at the biblical use of tongues as mentioned by Paul and in Acts what do you find?  You find that someone was preaching and the Spirit came in and filled the people so that they would be talking and everyone could understand them.  Imagine if you will a kung-fu flick dubbed over...someone would speak in Aramaic and a person who only knew Hebrew could understand them.  This is the first true translation of the Word of God.  

When you look at things even such as the KJV and look at it's origins you find that there were many scholarly people with a heart towards God involved in reading the original manuscripts and such and translating from there.  No matter what you do when you read something that you do not know the language.  And I mean language not words.  You are trusting is someone elses translation/interpretation.  We put faith in not the authors, but in God that He would not let His word be tarnished.  And that the translation we use of the Bible is true to the word and spirit of the original words written 1000's of years ago.  

So it is by faith that we modern language speakers take any translation we read as truthful to the original written language.  It is by that same faith that we take any definition of words and explanations of terms of the original languages or any other language we do not know as being truthful.

Take for example the spanish term Co'mo esta'  commonly translated as "how are you"  however a true translation would reveal that it is strictly "how are"  The language of Spanish has like many devolved some and shortened phrases.  The full phrase would be Co'mo esta' usted for how are you.  Now unless you spoke the language fluently (being born in it), or someone taught you the dialects, and the devolution of the language you would would be confused the first time someone came up to you and said "co'mo esta'"  You would be waiting for them to finish their question.  Cause it would be embarassing if you then just blurted out that your hemoroids were hurting that day  

So unless we fully understand the language we are still relying on others to interpret and translate for us.  I for one have found that English Bibles are generally enough for me.  I do like to pick up other resources at times to delve a little deeper into their meanings but I also understand that everyone alive today is doing the same thing since those languages are dead languages.  They are going on the information that they have and translate from what they know.  But no one knows the original languages and inflections and possible dialects and such that may have been written.  But we have faith enough in God that He preserved His word for all to read, listen too, and experience as only the Holy Ghost can.

God Bless and praise to you Linssue.  It really matters not how you learn the word of God, only that you do and you help others learn it as well.  We must also remember that we should tolerate others if they learn in different ways as long as they are learning the way.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Amen

Paul wrote to the Corinthians of this as well

2 Corinth 10:5 "...,and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ"

If we take every thought and allow Christ to speak through that thought then it will not come out our lips in a disobedient manner.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

You are right when saying that time is not relevant to God. He transcends all time.  He created time and put it's constraints on man.

Amen to pretty much everything else that I have read.  But one thing that I always like to teach is time is relevant to God.  PR you are correct that he does transcend time.  He is above and beyond, and all around time.  And being that he is not constrained by time.   But to say that since He is beyond that and created that then it is not relevant to Him would also stated He created man, put the constraints on man and we are aslo not relevant. 

Just because God created something and is not in affected by His creation (ie gravity, laws of physics, etc) does not mean they are not relevant to Him.  They are relevant to us because He created them for us.  He loves us so much that he created these for us.  That in itself implies they are relevant to Him.  We must always put the term relevant into context.  Is time relevant to God's existance?  No.  Is man relevant to God's existance? No.  But is time relevant to God because He has made it so?  Yes by sheer will of creation He has made it relevant to HImself.  It is still not relevant to His specific existance, but relevant none the less.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Amen not a good situation at all

Matt 24:7-8 (NASB)
For nation will rise against nation, and kigdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.  But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs

Although I am ready I pray that the end is not quite that near

Sincerely
Brother Jerry