Quotes from felix102 post:

"I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name." rev 3:8

I know that you have little strength...
I dont think I need to prove this but this is very true in regards to my life. I have never been able to accomplish much...my will and focus is very weak.

How well I recognize your truth as it is mine also.  And the Lord lead me to the Philadelphia church verses when I was also new born of the Spirit.

"yet you have kept my word...
...I now live and hold fast to the Lord's word. Something I did not do when I simply knew scripture in my mind and not by spirit..

We also keep it by not denying its truth.  And the Spirit of Truth.  And by not wrongly dividing the Word.

and have not denied my name...
I now do something very often...call upon the name of the Lord...

Yes, yes, yes!   Romans 10:13, one of THE most important verses in the Bible, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."   and the best of it is, it is an open-ended statement, to which you could ask, "saved from what?" and the answer can be "from anything you need saving from", whether deadness of letter, lack of love, temptation, pride, divisiveness, or hell, you name it.

I just spoke to a friend who also attending the church in San Diego and she is coming to the forum to read your posts, felix102.   She is a mighty warrior of the Word and will get great enjoyment from them, as do I.  

[that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.]

Do any of the rest of you posters out there see that a lot of the Word is misused/read/translated consistently?

Like the ever-famous,  "The Lion shall lie down with the Lamb"?   There are pictures of it, preachers "quote" it, writer's include it, and IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Then there is the famous preaching of "learning God's word'..precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little", this is how you learn the Word, and about God, precept upon precept...."

Look at this: Isa 28:13 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."  And verse 12 says "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

The whole gist of this passage is that those who learn precept upon precept...here a little, there a little..are those who don't hear, don't chose His rest, who "have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:(v15)  

This is what Matthew Henry wrote about verses 9-13

Precept upon precept. It must be so, or (as some read) it has been so. They have been taught, as children are taught to read, by precept upon precept, and taught to write by line upon line, a little here and a little there, a little of one thing and a little of another, that the variety of instructions might be pleasing and inviting,—a little at one time and a little at another, that they might not have their memories overcharged,—a little from one prophet and a little from another, that every one might be pleased with his friend and him whom he admired.  

It is clearly a negative passage yet it is taught by some who should have studied the Word extensively, ie preachers of the Word, as a primer for Word study.  Not that precept upon precept is a bad concept, but if we only learn what makes us pleased with our friend and pleasing to those we admire, what good is it?

I'm going to start making a list of the times I see examples of mis-teaching, mis-preaching, and mis-speaking of the Word.

How about "every tub must sit on its own bottom", and "cleanliness is next to godliness".   Any takers on finding them in the Scripture?  

I'm going to create a new book for "scripture" and call it the Book of Hezekiah.  In it I'm going to put every example of this trend I can find.  

Any of you have examples for me?    

Oh, my, oh my,  I can't begin to tell you, felix102, how very satisfying it is to read your posts and find a "like-minded" one.  My God is good, and knows what we need at any given time.   I so agree with everything you've posted so far, that it is almost scary.  

There is very little to which I can give a whole-hearted Amen on the forums where I post.   Not because I desire to be disagreeable or pontific about my "point of view" but just that the Spirit of truth which I love and have asked never to let me be held in deception of any kind is at work and any thing that rings of human "motives" or "agenda" is distasteful.  "Flesh" in action can be extremely disagreeable, as I'm positive you know all too well.  

It is all so draining that I cry "Oh, for the purity of the Scripture, of God's Holy speaking!!!!"

Yes, yes, we all think wrongly on some points, we know now "in part", and even "whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away", so to "teach" a motive or agenda when the Word is all that matters and all that will stand is a total waste of time.  Not my interpretation or anyone else's but the Truth that is inherent in the Word is ALL THAT MATTERS.  

Well, you're probably wearing a crease across your forehead trying to figure out what started this "harangue".  And yet, I hope you hear my heart and no other thing.   I'm TERRIBLY grateful for this fellowship and giving all glory to God!

You are so correct in this statement "Didnt think much of the 'spirit' spoken about in the bible. However, I believe it is monumentaly important..."    One thinks just of the one Scripture which says "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Rom 8:14).   How much more important could it be to know, follow, listen to, and embrace in every respect this wonderful Comforter, and Guide to all truth?  

You posted, "It was then that the deadness inside me was filled with life. And this life came by the Spirit. "  Oh, hallelujah!   Our God is awesome in all His ways!   I'm so glad you have tasted and seen that He is good, and that His mercy endures forever!

BTW, I attended the Church in San Diego, a branch of the Church in Austin, I do believe.  I was there several years ago while Brother Lee was still alive.

I don't have time just now to respond to your comments on Rev 3:7-12.   But I greatly desire to consider and speak to them at a future time, hopefully today.

In the meantime, dear brother, be blessed, go with God and live in His marvelous light!

[Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."]

Hi, felix102  I appreciate your posts very much.

You posted, "When I got back to America, God immediately lead me out of the protestant church into a body of other worshippers who worshipped in spirit and truthfulness. God lead me out of the protestant churches and into the Church in Philadelphia."

Are you referencing the church spoken of in Rev or a group of people who now call themselves the "Church in Philadelphia"?  Why do you say the Lord led you out of "protestant" churches?

I know that is a lot of questions, but I want to understand more fully what you are saying.  I attended the Church in San Diego under Witness Lee back when he was in LA, CA., and learned a very great deal about the faith that is not taught in "protestant" churches and probably not in Catholic either.  Part of the doctrinal teaching there was that denominations of any kind were against Scripture.  I believe that to be true, also.  

Anyway, I have yet more questions,  :
See if you can follow along with me, hopefully my logic is not too cloudy:

Look at Rev 20.  The enemy is chained for a thousand years. During that same time period, verse 4,6 says, "...I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Then look with me at Rev 15, these same blessed and holy ones sing the song of Moses and the Lamb  saying "4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."
 
Ok, so the nations come and worship before Him until the end of the 1000 yrs when Satan is again loosed for a time (Rev 20:7).   He deceives the nations, and here I need to say the following is MY OWN take on the Scriptures and not doctrine of any church that I know of.  

 I would like to hear what you have to say on it:

I believe the "deception" of the nations who have been worshipping God for 25 generations can only take place because they have come to the place exactly as you put it "..find(ing) the activities of the church life to be mundane....they become lukewarm." (I would have to exchange "worship of God" for "church life"  to make more sense of what I think I'm seeing but the idea is the same)

So what do you think, do you think the church of Laodicea might be the one involved in Armageddon?  

It is very exciting to me to think so, cuz I believe also that we are in the Church of Philadelphia time period, and that means we are at the end of the church age, really, that is, that the next thing could be a rapture (another subject I'm pretty unclear on).  
   
what do you think?

Also, to keep this on the thread topic:   This may be another reason why refuges for His people have become so important to me and to others hearing from Him about it.  In order for His people to be ready to meet Him, they must know Him, right?(PHil 3:10).  

felix102:
Civil engineering may be just the thing the ones who are setting up the refuges will be needing, so I'm glad you are not considering dropping out of school.  I have spent many years in school, only to find that it helped me not at all with what was really important in my life, and that is seeking hard after Him.  However, if the Lord has you in school, there is a reason.

jn: Amazing how close your ideas are to what the Lord implanted in me.   I too don't see the refuges as being places of "withdrawal" and embattlement against the world, but rather, at least in the current times, simply places where one can go and in peace and quiet, contemplate the life we are living and what the Lord has to say about it, as well as to get direction for closer walk with Him.   That is some who come might need guidance to even know how to attempt a relationship with Father God, while others are able to help another find the way to still themselves, as David wrote, as a weaned child, so that they can hear the Father's voice and sense His presence.  

Of course, hearing and sensing Him can be done in normal 9-5 lives as well, but the impressions I received is that the enemy is making certain that time is so limited, some will never find a way to the Lord without a retreat setting.


felix102, you wrote, "But I feel strongly about the Church of Laodecia coming out of a church or city of true worshippers."

I'm not sure I follow you on this.   It is intriguing but confusing as I know the church in Laodecia spoken of in REv as the luke-warm end of Christianity, so how do you see that coming out of "true worshippers"?   I'm sure I'm just missing something, but enlighten me if you care to.

I am so impressed by the Lord and His workings in people with means and motives to set up the refuges for His people.  that is precisely what happened in the book, The 2nd Exodus, when different folks, in different countries and of different denominations were all impressed to ready shelters for many people.

I wouldn't limit the Lord and what He can do with you as an undergrad.   It is my impression that in days to come, though they may be an entire generation away, those terrible times could come on us unaware as well, that degrees and education will count for less than nothing. It will be the skills and spiritual walk with the Lord that will be needful.

Your vision of entire cities is very much larger than mine of a simple "campground" sort of place, but how wonderful it would be to have entire "Cities of Refuge"!

Don't be discouraged, my brother, and be watchful for opportunities to use what you've learned already!    

(btw   I am a sister  )

[and]

Oh, wow, I've got hair standing on end...it is SOOOO exciting to have heard from someone else who has had the same speaking in realtime!

I believe I did get further speaking that I wasn't prepared to put into public view at the time of the original post, but since you asked....

I call them "prayer impressions", a phrase a dear friend provided, rather than "visions" because the latter sounds a little OT, if you know what I mean, and of course, I'm unworthy of anything approaching any of the prophets back then.  

However, for whatever of His own reasons, the Lord has given me prayer impressions over several years of catastrophic occurences to come, including darkness covering the land even to the point of not being able to see Christians as the points of light I usually "see".  

Anyway, you asked what I think this means, and not what I've "seen", so having pointed the way, I think you know where this is going....I believe times such as not known before in USA are coming.   It seems, according to the prayer impressions, that Christians may not be raptured out of the mess to come, but will be in need of refuges from persecution, instead.  

Now the terrible events I've "seen" seem to be a good ways off timewise, perhaps even after I'm long gone from the earth, but in the meantime, He wants His people to have the knowledge of how to have a relationship with Him in which they can entrust their own and their loved ones lives to Him NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND THEM.  This applies whether catastrophe strikes or if the "busyness" has just gotten to them.

You posted, "I keep seeing a “No Trespassing” sign on one side of the road and a sign saying “Christians Welcome” on the other… "  In some of the "impressions" concerning the makeup of the refuge He plans for me to provide, He has made it clear that there is to be no "tolerance" for non-believers, or for those who come to "spy out the freedom" we enjoy as brothers/sisters.  

Apparently, you are to be part of the supply of refuges.   I'm excited, for you, and because I KNEW there had to be others serious about this.

I'm going to be praying for you and yours, Judgenot, and hope you will do the same for me, mine,  and the plans God has for you and I and the others who are hearing the call.

Thank you, Lord for letting Judgenot see my post, and thank you Judgenot for replying.

Has anyone else been spoken to by the Lord about providing refuges, or as some might call it, "places of rest" for His people?

While I was still in California, the Lord began to speak to me about a Refuge for His people. He coupled this with a vision of the planet Earth being encircled by rapidly moving steel tracks that wound around it tighter and tighter until the middle was squeezed like a waist.

He led me to see that the devil, thru his abilities as the prince of this world system, has been for many years speeding things up, until many of God's own people are so busy they have no time for Him, or if they spend some time seeking Him, it is blighted by the "busyness" of the world.

I "saw", as if as an example, a large house with a four car garage, and mom and some kids in one SUV and dad in another speeding somewhere, to tennis lessons, piano lessons, soccer practice, after school events, appointments, and so on.

The implication was that the bills on the huge house, multiple cars, and lessons for the kiddies were so overwhelming the parents yielded to the "speed" of life as a way to avoid facing a collapse of life as known to them.

Also, that the very busyness was a snare to keep them from realizing they have no relationship with God, and no idea how that might happen, or so much as realize why they might need such a relationship.

He indicated the need for Refuge, that is, places where His people could spend time, and give to the Lord the attention He deserves and for our own well-being. This refuge idea is not that of a retreat or a campground, but a place where some might decide to live, while others come to stay variable lengths of time as they are able: a quiet place, a restful garden, and a place where help could be found in the seeking of God and a relationship with him from other Christians who have given the time and have the relationship.

The Refuge places would also be a safe place for those fleeing persecution, though I didn't see that part at the beginning of the speaking and impressions.

Since then, I have done what I can to set up such a place here in KY, buying land and having utilities put on it for use when it is needed by the people of God.

Not long after I first heard from the Lord on this subject, I began to hear of many others who have had the same kind of speaking, some have already been able to establish such places.

I read a book called "The Second Exodus" of Jews out of Russia and other lands in their coming back to Jerusalem. In the book, which I read after the Lord had already been speaking to me about the Refuges for some time, it is mentioned on several occasions about people being warned ahead of time to get places ready for visitors and their buying of lands and buildings to provide shelter. In many cases, the lands and buildings were in use shortly after the Lord's speaking came to the providers.

I feel as if there is something else I should be doing now, as the land is just basically sitting there. In fact, I have it up for sale, as it may not have been the right location. There is another person's land between the acreage I have and the road and to enter mine, you have to pass right by their house. I may be able to buy their land, which would increase the size of the land available and give better access. Or if I get the price I'm asking, I will be able to buy a larger parcel. I'm open to the Lord for whatever He wishes to do with the land, and with me, in accordance with His desire for the Refuge.

I'm very interested to know if anyone else has heard similar things from the Lord. I have already met one here in KY who has a similar vision and have recently heard of another who was to look at the acreage I have and was looking for land to do exactly the same thing.

jlockin, I like that you said you know you got married too fast, and are paying for it with the consequences you mentioned.   It took me a very long time after becoming a Christian to really clamp down that it is MY FAULT that certain things happened in my life and that the consequences were my own making.   Since you said you are new, I believe the Lord is dealing with you extra fast, at least compared to the way I grew.  

Let me tell you, I've now been a Christian for over 32 years, and I've learned a few things.   One is that "this too shall pass".   This is a stage in your growth and one that will make you closer to the Lord if you go thru it calling on Him and waiting on His help.  

Romans 10:13 will be important for you:   Realize it is an open-ended statement.   You can ask "saved from what?" and fill in the blank yourself.   The answer is, of course, anything and everything, including your and your husband's bad choices.  The Lord doesn't always deliver us from consequences but He will always be with us in them if we call on Him, leaning on Him in all things and at all times.  

I don't know what part of the world you are in, but try to find a church which has as at least part of its membership other ex-this and thats, ones that can relate to yours and your husband's past.

I personally found that to be a challenge in my younger years, as I too came into Christianity with a lurid past haunting me, drug use, immorality as a life-style, prison, etc.

However, there are churches, like Victory Outreach and Set Free on the west coast, which have as their membership just "our kind" .   I found early on that those who have been delivered from deep sin are among the most humble, non-judgmental and wise of His servants.  This is important when we are trying to fit in and find out what Christianity is all about.

Keep us informed here of your progress, and I am praying right now that you will be filled with a sense of His Presence and the power of His resurrection; that you will come to know what is the breadth and height and depth of His love towards us; how powerful His blood is in washing away our sin and shame; and how joyfully He has welcomed you and will welcome your husband into His Kingdom.

May the Lord make His face to shine on you, new one.  May His love warm your heart and soul.

[NOT]

What are your beliefs about women in the Church? The Bible does clearly state in parts prescribed roles for men and women. A number of the apostles, including Paul, wrote about how women cannot speak in church and keep their heads covered. If they cannot speak, how is it that they can be Ministers and Pastors in Churches, WITHOUT their heads covered?

Excuse the bluntness, but the Bible does NOT "clearly state.... prescribed roles for men and women."  Not insofar as being "Ministers and Pastors in Churches", for sure.

1 Timothy 2:12-15 for example:

Since neither leadership nor headship in the church are mentioned either in the verses or in the context of the verses used as an example, there is no evidence that they are specific to the "ordination of women to leadership".

The leap in logic required is not as difficult for we who live in this 21st century since we have had years of teaching and preaching of this supposition until we find it easy to believe Paul was speaking of church leadership in these verses.

Verse 12 says "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."  To teach a man would not require one be a Minister or Pastor.  

To "usurp authority" would violate 1 Pet 5:5 (Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble).
Yet it would not require church leadership to perform this unScriptural behavior.

"to be in silence" does not translate out to keeping one's mouth closed in speechlessness.  In fact, the word translated "silence" would have been better interpreted as "quietness", per the Greek Lexicon.  

Furthermore, this word is defined by the same authority as "description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others".   One can hardly interpret this as telling women to stay home from church, can one?  We are commanded not to neglect the gathering together of ourselves. And, again, to "officiously meddle with the affairs of others" would violate the 1 Pet 5:5 verse.  

Going back to 1 tim verse 12 we can look up the word "suffer" and see that it is defined in the Greek Lexicon as "to turn to, transfer, commit, instruct".  

Usurp isn't actually in the manuscripts but the word "authority" is and is translated by the same reference as before as:

1.  one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2.  one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3.  an absolute master
4.  to govern, exercise dominion over one

alright, then, let's see:  in just a few minutes of research, we can re-interpret the verse (12) as:

 "I do not instruct women to teach or behave as if master of others (even those who most strenuously object to "women in ministry" will usually agree that "man" is generic for human), but to take care of their own business, not meddling officiously in others' affairs"

Seen in this light, the verse now fits extremely well with the rest of this discourse of Paul's on the proper behavior for church attendance, of which he himself says in 1 Tim 3:14-15 "These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God.  

Yet, even so, however the verse is translated, there is no mention here of "leadership" or whether such is appropriate for women or not.

I have no more time or energy for this today.   In hopes of seeing some genuine inquiries, I am

Certain verses are used by those who hold that women should not be in ministry, or perform offices in church, such as prophet, evangelist, pastor, etc.  One such is 1 Tim 2:12, which is often used to indicate that women should not hold leadership positions.

Since neither leadership nor headship in the church are mentioned either in the verse or in the context of the verses surrounding this one, I disagree that they are specific to the "women in leadership". The leap in logic required is not as difficult for us since we have had years of teaching and preaching with this supposition until we find it easy to believe Paul was speaking of church leadership in these verses. But, as I've said on other forums:

1 Tim 2:12 reads "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The word "usurp", though not actually in the manuscripts, apparently, lends a certain light in that the next word "authority" here is said to mean (again from the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon):

1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one

This describes someone who is acting outside the bounds of 1 Peter 5:5 for instance, "Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

It seems clear, then, that it was in the cultural context spoken of by others, (NOT NECESSARILY HELD, BY ME, TO BE THE CORRECT OR ONLY REASON THIS VERSE WAS WRITTEN )whereby women are said to have been shouting across the church meeting rooms to ask questions, (or possibly to "teach" someone something) that there had to be some order imposed, that God's good name not be "blasphemed" (*) by the meeting attendees from among the "heathen" Greeks (who, per historical references, are said to have had their women shut up at home and incommunicado) or the "Jews" who still held to the law.
(*)-1 Tim 6:1 & Tit 2:5, for instance)

On a slightly different subject, 1 tim 3:4 says of a man who wishes to be a bishop, that he must be "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity". And again in verse 12 "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well".

Note that it doesn't say "wife and children".

At the very end of his speaking on the subject, Paul indicates he wrote it "..that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,which is the church...", indicating that all that went before was written for that purpose. Note again, that he makes no mention that he wrote it to say women were not to be allowed leadership.

I think the reason these verses are interpreted as they are is that the MALE translators of the past were influenced by their culture to the extent that they truly felt the words they chose were the appropriate ones.   I have stated on other forums that oftentimes the words chosen, such as the word "silence" in the 1 Tim 2:12 reference, is actually stated by the Greek Lexicon, assumedly a very good interpreter of Greek prepared by scholars, to be (as a FIRST and therefore PRIMARY definition) "quietness" and is further defined as "description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others."  

So then the verse could be as easily and correctly interpreted, according to the same authority, as "And I do not permit a woman to teach or act autocratically but to do her own work, not officiously meddling with the affairs of others".

While, as a male poster was happy to point out, this still references women's behavior only, it is, in fact, part of a rather long passage on behavior fitting for church participants.

What it does not do is say women may not hold leadership postions in the church.   Nor does 1 Cor 14:34 "Let your  women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. "

I don't have time or patience at this late hour to itemize what this verse DOES NOT say, but let me point out that it is included in another long instruction by Paul on those who speak in tongues and what might be thought of it and so on.  Even a casual read of this entire passage should be sufficient to provide rebuttal of those who use this passage as saying that women cannot hold leadership, ie spiritually gifted, positions in the church.