We are saved when the Holy Spirit enters us, period. When the Holy Spirit enters us, He gives us the faith. We cannot "decide" to have faith or muster it up. We either have an intimate knowledge of Christ or we don't. I asked God into my life in 1985 but nothing happened. Nothing changed and my life got worse. I felt no different nor was I spurred to seek out His word. But then in 1989, when I was at the end of myself, He came to me. I felt the Holy Spirit enter me and in a matter of seconds I knew that Jesus was alive.

I'm not saying you aren't saved, Pilgrim, that's between you and God. But I do know there's a difference between intellectually believing Christ died for us and a heart change. As for claiming good deeds, how can I claim good deeds? If I boast about my deeds then they were done for me, not for God. Jesus talks about giving with the left hand while the right hand doesn't know what you're doing. When we lie naked beofre God, He doesn't want to hear "Boy look what I'VE done today. Aren't I wonderful!"" He wants to hear how much we need Him and how thankful we are that He is in our lives. He wants us to ask what more we can do.

Whatever good deeds I've done, all i feel is how much I haven't done. For example, we bought a beautiful house last year. Every day I walk around and think about how many people the money we paid for this house can feed. I mean it's not an ostentatious house but still, if I have not sold all my belongings and given to the poor, I'm indulging in some form of greed. I don't believe I am strong enough to do that right now, but maybe someday I will be. I can handle my guilt because I know I'm loved anyway which makes me strive to have Him lessen my sin everyday.

Not so!

"FAITH comes by hearing the Word of God"!
and we know from other scriptures that HEARING ALONE is not enough.
So that "HEARING " of the Word is with UNDERSTANDING.
Faith IN GOD therefore comes when we UNDERSTAND the MESSAGE of GOD!
But ALL men have faith acccording to what faith "IS" and excersise it every day wether saved or unsaved.
Faith only becomes SAVING faith when it is put in God.

To further the 'argument'
The HOLY SPIRIT cannot come in that which is yet not saved!
seeign that HE is HOLY and we are not being DEAD and unsaved.
But when the WORD is PREACHED  then He MOVES upon the WORD and QUICKENS it to our UNDERDSTANDING so that understanding what WE are and knowing then what God is.
We fing that we are in need of a SAVOUR.
and as the Word is further preached concening Christ and the cross we see GODS answer not only for our sin but also HIS establishment and upholding of the law.
and so understanding what we must do......REPENT we turn oursleves and our faith from everythign else and to HIM.
and call upon the name of the LORD.
and He in response to FAITH saves us.
and THEN the Holy Spirit seals us.
For to be BORN of the water is to be born of the WORD.
For  faith comes BY the WORD; it folows thenthat if we do not have the Word we do not have faith and we cannot please God "for without faith it is impossible to please God!
Therefore it is by the WORD ... AND the Spirit which comes upon the Word.
and brings forth the LIFE that is in it.

Those  who for the  history of men but deny God look for the START of LIFE in the DUST.
Those who love science("so called") look for the future of man look  to the stars.
Both seek LIFE 'other' than God who is the author and giver of it.

AS men deny God by whom he was created in the PAST.
and who deny God to whom as it were we go in the FUTURE.

Then they are DEAD  and know it and are seeking LIFE.
The one the START of it,the other its END.
For in truth if they had LIFE then they wouild neither SEEK it nor wonder where it came from.

But  God by whom we were made promised to ABRAHAM that His seed would be as the SAND as as the STARS in heaven in number.

If you SOW sparingly you will REAP sparingly.
Likesie if you SOW bountifully ypou will REAP bountifully.

The quesation is WHAT are we SOWING?
The WORD of God(which "is a SEED") or our church?
Are we more intersted in the filling of our pews up and increasing the offering or the SOULS of men amnd the EXTENTION of the kingdom of God?

tHE KINGDOM OF GOD is likened unto a man who went out to SOW!
sOME fell here soem fell there.
But he CONTINUED sowing!
Does a FARMER stop sowing after the aFIRST HARVEST?
OF COURSE NT.
But SOWS CONTINUALY that he might continually REAP!
Does he sow sparingly in case some fails?
NO! but BOUNTIFULLY.
For though one seed might fail toi find soem good ground.
Yet another seed   will find good  ground and from that ONE seed will spring forth 49 at least other seeds in the ONE HEAD of corn that comes forth.
It is the DEVIL that would not wnat us to SOW but rather" to look at the clouds"
did not Jesus say the HARVEST is BOUNTIFULL but the LABOURERS ARE few!?
its not the lack of souls ;there are MANY; its the WORKERS that are FEW!
"PRAY YE THEN THAT THE Lord of the harvest will send more LBOURERES!
fOR HOW CAN htey be SAVED unless they hear the GOSPEL and how can they hear unless it si PREACHED AND who WILL GO FOR US?
tHEREFORE the question is wrong.
Fotr its not the few souls needingf to be saved.
But it is the MIGHTY NUMBERLESS NUMBER who are NEEDING TO BE SAVED but thier are not ENOUGH WORKERS to haul in the nets!

Have you ever stopped to consider that before ANYTHING there was only God.
and in Himself was PERFECTION ,JOY and eternal peace and contentment.
He had NEED of nothing.

Yet knowing HIMSELF the BEST and most PERFECT thing He could do was to create man who that where God was "there he could be also"
For the highest GOOD for man was and is to know Him."whom to know is LIFE eternal"

Now you say God is selfish?
I once thought that when i was a child.
using the same arguments as you have.
pretty much.
Yet think on this for amoment.

It COST God EVERYTHING to give us soemthing for nothing.

God has no need of air and sun and all of creation.
Nor has He need of men or of angles or of anytthig that was made.
Yet God being God and by that which is in His nature which is LOVE;ACTED out of LOVE AND created MAN.
Not by command as all creation.
But He FORMED Him out of the dust of the earth and breathed in Him that which was of Him and "he became a living soul"

How is it then that we will gloryfy men for the deeds that THEY do but not God who DESERVES  ALL the glory for what He has done.
But men would rather gloryfy men and give men PRAISE and are so quick to CONDEMN God that it seems alitle unbalANCED.

Is not God WORTHY to be praised?
and in the FINAL ANLYSIS is not ALL the glory HIS?

Yet you say He created men to worship Him.
To any man who has fallen in  love with God and has experined the worship of God.
I say glory to God for that also!
For God KNOWS as He knows himself that mens HIGHEST and maturist service is done in the worship of God.

I would say that God created MAN that he might know HIM who created him.
and that the NATURAL response of a RIGHTOUS man IS     to worship God and it is RIGHT to do so.

That MEN do not shows that it is by mens FREE will that they do and no compulsion of God.
But a 'NATURAL' REPSONSE of a THANKFULL and regenerated heart. TO God who is WORTHY to be called GOD and who ALONE is worthy to be praised.

True humility comes from UNDERSTANDING who and what you are in the sight of God.
Pride comes by thinking you are MORE than what you are.

No christian who has spent any time at the foot of calvaries rugged cross has much room for pride.

Humility comes   in the measure of your (LIVELY) KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.

Pride comes when you are unwilling to admit you are wrong.
Humility is there when you accept it and seek God to change.

Pride cometh before  a fall.
Humility before you stand up on your own two feet.

Pride comes when we are MAN centered.
Humilty is there  when we are GOD centered.

"IF MY people will HUMBLE themselves(FIRST) (THEN) and pray I will forgive THIER sins and HEAL THE LAND"

It would seem then that the "land's' problems haS ITS ROOT in the churches PRIDE?

Perhaps if there was less 'celebrating' and more "WEEPING before the alter"Things may begin tO HAPPEN.

The difference?

Then it was "THAT which was spoken of by the prophets"
NOW it is this which is spoken of by men.

It was when the HOLY SPIRIT came not only UPON them (as it was of old) but now shall be IN you was there such a move of God.that it turned the world upside fown and defeated thew roman empire.
The reformation with the LITTLE they had turned the world upside down and defeated the roman empire.

But today?

We are in a REVERSE reformation.
AND WHAT MEN CALL "this" is not "THAT"

Every TRUE HOLY revival has come about by a FEW praying and intercedeing for it.
NOT great gatherings stomping thier feet and screaming.
But a few who were willing to WEEP between the alter for the sins of the peopleand thier own.
and were burdened for the lost.
and were not willing to let go untill they besseachingly  got one or die.

The PROMISE of God is that "another comforter shall come..." who will bring all things i have spoken into remeberence.
Yet to those who would rather beleive false teachers rather than God think the day has past and w ehave no need of Him.
Yet was there not a church in the book of revalations who in THIER OWN EYES "had need of nothing"
Yet in Gods was "wretched poor and BLIND"
and needing an eye salve that it might see clearly!
the things that are not what we hope are.

They who HUNGER and THIRST after RIGHTOUSNESS shall not go hungry.
But He has promised to feed.

It should be noted also,That there were in Gods ordinances....12 apostles...NOT 1.

An apostles is NOT chosen by men but by God.
and DEMONSTRATES the LIFE,POWER and TEACHING of an APOSTLE.
nOT IN WORLDLY WISDOM as soem have made it seem.
nor in OUTWARD SHOW.
But in WORD and in POWER.
and the ANNOINTING of God which NO man can counterfeit nor SUPRESS by opposing it.

Every TRUE APOSTLE lays the foundations.

The ROCK is on which the FOUNDATIONS are put on!

This is clearly NOT peter either but CHRIST.

The LIFE is not there because what many call "this" is NOT "THAT" which was spoken of by the prophets.
For MANY deny the PROMISE nor SEEK ITS FULLFILLMENT in thier lives.
Thinking that all they need are the "lamps lit"but not thier vessesl filled.
But if the church is to be ready to meet the Lord in the air it HAS to have "that" WHICH WAS PROMISED/
For can it be thought that the LAST church can be LESS than the FIRST?
Yet MANY think we no longer need that which was promised and have ebcome like the churchj in the book of revaltion which in thier own eyes "had need of nothing"
But in Gods was POOR WRETCHED AND BLIND"

First I am not sure what you are replying to.
But in any event was seeking to get peoples thoughts directed to some of the principles concerning the study of the scriptures.
I do not hold that the OLd testament is ONLY concerned with LAW.
But is God speaking in PARTS or in "divers ways and in sundry places" what He has spoken to us in these last days by His Son.
As such we need to understand the PARTS as much as we need to u nerstand the whole.
For if we do not we will not realy come to aknowledge of the hights and depths and breadths of scripture and in consequence fully underdstand the love of Christ towards us.
The LAW is only a PART of the MESSAGE.
as is the salvation by grace and not of those works of the law.
It took 4000 yeas for God to prepare the 'soil' "for the seed to be able "to fall into the ground and die"It is also the revaltion of God the Father even as the gospels are of the Son.
So....It folows that if wqe would understand more of the trinity of God we also need to study the Old testament to do so.
More given that in the LAST book  it speaks of the "tree of life" it is not unreasonable then to sugest that we also need to understand the FIRST book if we would understand the LAST one.

I do not think you can gain from ANY of my posts the idea that I believe or advocate salvation by Works.
But on the contrary.
But I DO believe and advocate that the gospel has beennTRUNCATED to fit MANS experience rather than letting the scriptures chalenge our present experience to be conformed to what the scriptures SAY.

For give  perhaps the hard question?
But what good are theories!?
For if our thinking is wrong then we will have to 'unthink' what we have thought.
Far better to hold it before God and ''chew on it' or meditate onthe passage untill you have GODS mind on it.
Sure we can 'wrestle ' with it.But thatius NOT the same as making uptheories a to what it MIGHT meen.
Surely we have ben promised thebHoly Spirit to lead us into all truth even aboutthis also?
and therefore we wil have the more satisfaction in not having a theory which may or may not be true but we will KNOW the truth and thetruth will make us free.
If we would but let the scriptures speak for themsleves and folow Pauls THINKING and LOGIC even as He folowed Christ in the passage then we will be LED even as He was to the SAME conclusions. and so we "all come to a unity of thefaith" because we will all come to a unity of UNDERSTANDING!"
How else can we "be renewed in the Spirit of our minds "
For if we but use the old reasoning we will never arive at the truth.
But as we are LED so we will ARRIVE and come to aknowledge of the truth.

Sometimes  it is good to just chew on a matter,that we dont understand.
A cow takes grass and chews on it and swallows it .But it is not yet digested all the goodnes sout of it.So iut briongs it up again and chews soem more and does it 3 times.
I have found that if I dont understand soemthing.Believeing it yet in not understanding I hold it and put it on the shelf as it were and bring it down and meditate on it some more  for as long as it takes and have always found great blessing in doing so when I finaly understand it.
The scriptures should be allowed to explain themsleves and the "thorn in the flesh" is a perculier saying  but can be found in the old testament relating to a certain peple.
Pauls "thorn in the flesh" was the "curcumcision party"
wh were a  continual trouble to the church and to the work and ministery of the gospel   then as it is now.For you will still find the same party doing what it did then even in these forums and others.

Prayer is NOT to make God our mesenger boy.
But to BRING into manifestation THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
The FIRST pettition in what is called the LORDS PRAYER but is in fact the PATTERN of [prayer by which ours should folow.
was "THY kingdom come,THY WILL be done"
As Christians we are not here to do "our own will but the will of Him who sent us"
and as such our prayers should be "SEEKING THE KINGDOM OF GOD and HIS rightousness FIRST then all the things we are in NEED of TO THAT END will be added unto us"
In THAT context I see NOWHERE in scripture God saying NO to any prayer.
but are YEA AND AMEN in Christ Jesus.
The only NO is when we "pray amiss"

gearld in UK, your post is so "Looooooooooong"...

In part a small apology but soemtimes a 'soundbite' will just not do!
If I had broken it up in to nurmerous posts what is the difference?

Michael:

If you had a proper understanding of Christ and what He accomplished for us through His sinless life and His perfect sacrifice, you would know that the day Christ died was the day that the Law of Moses was fulfilled in every detail and then abolished!

The New Covenant brought a new Law of Love, written on the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit. Since this is God's love, only God within the believer can keep this Law, and does keep it: *FOR IT IS GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU, BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE* (Philippians 2:13). That is totally different from keeping the Law of Moses in our own strength or with our own efforts, since it is supernatural. Study the New Testament Scriptures and ask the Lord to opne your eyes. You have been blinded.

Perhaps your choice of word is misleading.
'ABOLISHED'

The LAW is NOT abolished for it is there to "CONVICT OF SIN" and to act" as SCHOOL TEACHER to lead men to Christ"
To abolish is to do away with.
It is now made of NONE effect to the SAVED in that they are no longer UNDER IT. or condemned by it seeing that In Christ it is FULLFILLED and as we are DEAD in Christ crucyfied WITH Him as Pal pointed out a woman whos husband is now dead is now longer UNDER the LAW even though she marrieth another.
Now being now DEAD to the law and alive to GOD we are set FREE from the curse of the LAW to all who believe on Him.
But seeing that the LAW is both JUST ann TRUE AND is ofn God how then can they be abolished?
But whereas they were once written on STONE are now written on the fleshly tables of our hearts.
and we do not conform to the OUTWARD LAW but to the inward LAW of Christ which sets us free.
For now we UPHOLD the LAW being made RIGHTOUS not by the LAW but through FAITH in Christ who fullfilled them.
and the LIFE WE NOW LIVE is not by the LAW but by the faith of the Son of God.
For we do not seek to conform to the OUTWARD law and so seek to establish our OWN rightousness.
But because "He who knew no sin became sin" so that we might become the righousness of God" and so do declare both the rightousness of the LAW in the condemnation of sin in the flesh and the rightousness of God by the WORK and ACCEPTANCE of Him who fullfilled BOTH.
and so give glory to God.
"For the power of sin is the LAW" and the law is STILL present and EFFECTIVE to those who do not believe.
But to them who do believe are set free from the CURSE of the LAW and its CONDEMNATION.
for there is now "no condemnation for those who WALK after the SPIRIT and not after the flesh"
for the LAW condemns sin in the FLESH but in the Spirit we are DEAD in the FLESH but ALIVE unto God and the life we now lead and the flesh we now walk in is QUICKENED by the Holy SPIRIT.
For are we not to COUNT our selves DEAD to sin? SEEING that we are CRUCYFIED with Christ?
and if we are DEAD then we are free from the law.
But is then the law abolished?
No.
But we are set free from it.
being DEAD!¬
TO IT.
For the power of sin is the LAW and therefore if we are TRULY dead to sin THEN the law can have no effect.
So we are to count ourslves DEAD to it for that in Christ we are if we but realise it.
For the struggles we have is not to die but THATwe are still trying to LIVE!
and are not yet willing to let the WORK of the cross WORK in soem area of our lives.
We are "crucyfied WITH Christ"
Therefore the POWER is not ours even to DIE to sin but Gods. and it by and through FAITH in Him who DIED and WITH whom we are by that faith CRUCYFIED WITH are we 'put out of our misery.'
Even as PAUL described in Romans.
But IF we are crucyfied WITH Christ by FAITH we are ALSO raised TOGTHER WITH Christ.
Not by the LAW which condemns us to death.
But the RIGHTOUSNESS OF GOD.
Not OUR righousness for we are or rather were condemned sinners. and allm our rightousness was as filthy rags in His sight.
But according to HIS rightousness .
and so we LIVE "but not I but Christ who liveth in me" and so the rightousness of God is manifested to the world in and through the body of Christ to His eternal glory.

Now to the BODY and therefore to each beleiver in the truth the LAW has been fullfilled and has no more EFFECT on them being dead to SIN and therefore the LAW has no more POWER over them and so nit subject to its curse.
But to the World and those who do not believe on Him whom God sent ;the LAW is STILL in effect because they have NOT yet believed on the truth "and the wrath of God abides on them still"
So to those nwho are not yet dead but still struggling to 'live' are not yet "finished doing thier own works even as God did from His"
And have not yet realised that even as FAITH was a GIFT. even as our salavtion was a GIFT.
So too is the VICTORY a GIFT.
"THANKS be unto God who GIVETH us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"
The law then STILL needs to perhaps teach that ALL the victory over whatever sin so easyly  besets us(which realy si unbelief) is by the SAME MEANS and the SAME POWER of the cross.
For by WHAT power WAS Christ crucyfied and condemned?
By the LAW.
and BY what MEANS AND POWER was He led there?
By the POWER OF GOD according to the scriptures.
Therefore we are CRUCYFIED ...........WITH.......CHRIST by the SAME means and POWER.
and as with EVERTHING through faith that comes by UNDERSTANDING the SCRIPTURES.
We are ALSO"raised TOGETHER WITH Him"By the SAME means the POWER of God and through or by the scriptures.
Now it is clear then that the POWER OF THE LAW of sin and death is LESS that the POWER of the RESURECTION.
For the LAW condemns and brings forth death by sin.
But the power of the resurection or if you will the LAW OF CHRIST brings LIFE ETERNAL.
 For By the LAW of gravity a jumbo jet is 'condemned' to stay on the ground.
But by the LAW of areodynamics and the APPLICATION of POWER it is then ABLE to RISE up into the air.
So then though we are DEAD by the LAW we are made alive by the resurection of Christ.
Paul was praying for CHRISTIANS when he asked that their eyes ofr thier understanding may be opened,that they may comprehend with all the sainst(the body) what is the exceeding greatness of His power that is TOWARDS them (continualy) who belive,even the SAME mighty power that raised up Christ from the dead"
For it is NOT by our power that we are CHRISTIANS but Gods.
and it was the LAW of God that brought us to Christ and it was the LAW of Christ who  gave us a new life.
And it is GOD who "worketh within us bot to DO and to WILL HIS good pleasure"
But only if we LET HIM!
For it is not our ABILATY but our AVALABILTY that enables Him to so WORK.
To what end?
That we may be MADE conformable to CHRIST.
and the devil would have us keep struggling under the LAW.
And many think they are trying to DIE when in fact they are still trying to live!
But if we LET God work in us and make us comformable to His death then we will be more comformable to Hs resurection also.
bUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY?
We are to "COUNT our selves dead to sin"
Even there then we do not struggle but "rest in faith" in the WORK of Christ on calvaries tree.
and as we WALK by faith looking unto Him who died that death will be WORKED out in us and we shall find that as we face things everyday that God in deed "GIVETH us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"
For even as were are DEAD to sin we are ALIVE now unto God and aware  in some measure at least of that power that is CONTINUALLY  "towards us"
and so "fullfill the law of Christ"
For we find that the LAW is good and true and worketh that which is RIGHT.
and we ALSO find that Christ and the rightousness that is NOT of the law but of faith is based on better things. and on better promises.and everlasting.
But the LAW written on STONE passeth away.