I always ask a person to give me a verse when they make a bold statement. I dont remember any verses that say clearly that complaining is a sin, and until I do I will answer on the grounds that it isn't necessarily. There are many small things left up to the heart to decide before God what is right and wrong.

I have a better question for you.

 If someone tells you that complaining is a sin, doesn't give a good verse for it, and it doesn't sit well with you, then would you accept it because it sounds like a rule God would give?

 In all reality there could be a verse dealing with this, and there might not be. It really makes no difference to me, but that is because it is such a small matter (ie, complaining about something untoward in a movie, or cheesy.) However, if there is a verse about complaining im almost positive it would be in context, and would most likely be alot more like dissimulation between Saints, more like the complaining of anothers sin that you refer to. The best example to learn from is ....
  Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

 What profit is there to have anything but love for all people? Love is the centerpiece of Gods purpose for us. Ideally the wisdom to pray for your brother should be applied to even the tiniest of occasions to keep your mouth/thougts pure from any dissimulation at all, but I'm positive that God is more concerned about what you think of others than compared to what you think/say about cheesy movies. The BEAM that could potentially be in your eye however might be a rapid fire judgement of many small things that you allow to consume you, then that is no different than having one big judgement over just one person.

 Your question is good, but im sure if you dont have a habitual problem of overdosing on complaints against pointless problems, then you probably are just human... and God doesn't expect us to be him, just to love him and all his will.

Hope that helps a little.
God bless
lightsavour out

 Bluelake, I dont know if I fully understand your question, but I have something to state, or pose as a further question.. if others dont agree. We know from 1st John that Jesus is the flesh of the word, but do we not also learn that Jesus is in fact our Creator, and also "the Lord" which is stated many times throughout the old testament. Take for example each of the prophets... I have been reading Jeremiah recently.
Jeremiah 1:7 "But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I should send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak."

 This is the way Jeremiah has his whole book written, (which if my memory serves me correct was written by a scribe of a different name.) He tells the scribe exactly what "the Lord" said to him, and the scribe writes it as if Jeremiah is speaking to the people of what has been told to him personally, as well as what has been told to him to tell the word. To me this relates well with Jesus being "the Lord" in the Old Testament, as he was always omnipotent, and only limited his glory when he walked as a man amongst men. Thus "the Lord" who gave prophecy to Jeremiah by visions or in the spirit, is the same Lord who saved us by his own blood, and who is the succouring of all saints during the times of temptation. He is not the Holy Spirit, which is separate and the same, but he is and will be the first spiritual being that also has flesh for all eternity. He is also not God Almighty, but is still perfectly one with God Almighty.

 Of course even if we are all in agreeance that Jesus was our Creator as well as our Saviour it isn't really necessary to preach this. We can say simply "God created man in his own image" and the Holy Spirit will take care of a finite souls interpretation of it. But for deeper studies of the prophets for the purpose of understanding they're divine gift of Gods justice, seeing the Lord speaking his own future to his chosen few is really quite amazing. This was the perfect Son of God, who limited himself by coming into the scene of time and sense, but who did not leave any of his perfection behind when he came into the body of a man, because he was perfectly subjected to the will of God in his love for his own creation.
 
 The tricky part would be that he refers to God the Father as being supreme, which is right, but it confuses most in regards to deciding how much he had limited himself of his own understanding. Some might say that when he knew the will of people around him (which is shown several times in the Gospels) that he was simply perfect himself and so could tell when people were lying, but one also might say that he heard all the thoughts of men but was wholly compassionate and didn't say half the things he knew because his love was to provide a sacrifice for men, and not to tell them all theyre different evil thoughts. This makes sense to me in regards to him being able to succour us in our temptations, because he couldn't ever really be tempted, and yet he did physically feel hungry when Satan told him to make stones into bread. So Jesus was wholly perfect, and that is something we have to accept in an overview way of seeing he is our Creator and Saviour, otherwise we will get caught up in the intricacies of a mind we cannot fathom.

 So indeed, Jesus is the word!!!!!

AMEN!
lightsavour out

Thank you ggamble's wife, ggamble hisself, blad, pastor roger.... all your comments are spiritually sound and awake testaments of Gods closeness to my situation. I thank you all from the core of my heart, if I fail like any time before then of course it will be my own choice, and even more a shame this time then times before.

 I do appreciate what you are saying as being correct. When I referred to an example it wasn't entirely accurate, I mean that has never happened to me (2 glasses of wine, then walking home) but I was referring to me. I am the one in the centre asking to questions of the bible. So it is me that wanted/wants the answers in regards to this topic, and thus I am very thankful your answers were so heartfelt and spiritually punctual (the poem was awesome!!)

 I hope I dont discourage any of you by saying you still haven't resolved my question. I also hope you dont see me as someone trying to justify smoking/drinking. I have smoked/drinked on and off (more smoking) about ten times now. When I first got saved Sept 2nd/2000 I stopped everything for 1 1/2 yrs. I was a perfect little boy (yes sarcasm is here) but when I started realizing how clearly my lack of perfection was the questioning of the bible was a big onslaught. I have such a rich background of teaching that I always just accepted it was right that you cannot make any willful mistakes and remain in Gods grace, when I realized you obviously can I immediately started asking God directly what he meant by "all things are lawful, but not all things are expediant."

 The fact that I have come here and asked the question is partially a result of me having quit smoking a mere 5-6 days ago, but the angle of my questioning has not changed since I first took the first puff. It is not a desire in me to be justified to smoke, but rather an understanding that I can obviously still hear God when I am high/drunk. I might be much less likely to listen to the voice, and moreso when I "party" (which I haven't done in years), but I most deffinately am not forgotten of God because I step away. Rather, since it is ME who steps away from God, then when I acknowledge this from within stepping away I know now (and have known) that I do not have to stay away from God even though the physical effects of my mistake can still be in the process of happening.

 I am positive that you are inferring I am attempting to justify myself. The only reason I say I am not, is because I have tried to justify myself many times during the past 6 years of weakness, and now I am trying to understand the spiritual science of abstaination, and compassion for those who are NOT abstaining. Does it do me justice to know many people I could help throug problems based on all the sound doctrine I DO know, just because I so recently have had weaknesses alive in my life? Why doesn't it make sense that the person who takes his problem to God and gets blessings after blessings to put it in its place... will eventually find the true questions of the generation? Thus, even if I am asking for someone to approach the volatile subject of differentiating between excess/moderation, expediancy/non expediant, sin/vanity/liberty... to help me... that doesn't mean at all that I am seeking any of you to justify my past. So please dont think I am.

 The questions I am asking have received such a resounding response of togetherness because you are all genuine Christians, and you like me know that based on the principle that we cannot teach it is ok to smoke or drink... we have to know it is not in Gods plan for our testimonies. But that does NOT mean that everyone's testimony is perfect, or even that you strong folk will not make graver errors in "not doing good" compared to my (or anyones) potential slipping to do "things that are not expediant." Thus what I am really asking is for you to become children in the questioning of the verses, not teachers. The verses will surely be alive in your lives in new ways from now until we are ushered into eternity, and in my opinion it is far better to dig deeper for the sake of our mutual youth, rather than fear the impact of what we might find by disecting them. .....

I say this especially because all of your answers are clinging to the idea that I am trying to justify myself. Maybe I am trying to grow our mutual appreciation of all of our justification in the Lord. I in fact am, and thus all I have really received thus far are peoples individual encouragement for ME to stay well in the Lord. I appreciate this, but as a disciple with a unique question pressed so firmly into my heart for the sake of my wavering generation (based on me stumbling, and then questioning alongside the entire information age) I must continue to seek the actual manna of God, and not just your opinions of what is better for me.

I hope this clarifies that I appreciate your fears for me, but that I am asking a much broader scoped question of direct proportions of importance based right in a few verses.

 Also, the people who say that the wine of old was grape juice do not read theyre bibles. The wine most deffinately got you drunk, read proverbs/ecclesiastes. Also, you must infer that the Lord only speaks about important things, and changed his demeanor only at times of importance. And surely he would have continued to drink grape juice if he was going to also teach that it is not what we put in our mouth, but what comes out that counts. I am not refuting there was grape juice, but the bible deals with all volatile things so as to make them pure knowledge for those that believe, but in regards to full abstaination there is very little that deals with it, only the spiritual form of it as 1 heart unto God completely.

 If I am evil for asking this question then please use verses that show my question as unprovoked by God, otherwise I will continue to see the verses you use be broad stripes of judgement at my present personality based on your inference of my hearts purpose... and nothing more. All im looking for is direction, and thus it must be direct, not general in a scope that most assuredly does not deal with all things that will happen in a persons life.


 I hold true that I first smoked weed in complete rebellion to God as a Christian, because I was weak to want to do it, and supposed it completely evil... so I juped off the tracks and starting notching away at my testimony so as to feel right living by Satans law of chaos. I have since smoked, felt the weak desire to obstruct my future path (saw it for what it was while still high)... and rather chose different paths that have also led me to quit, and to new parts of the bible being opened to me. I also admit to repeating my failures again and again, but will never see that I am ignorant of the devil anymore. I in no way am perfect, but rather am weak and can see how new knowledge gets added to me in spite of my weakness by me being honest and questioning the core of my own matters rather than accepting weakness, or the other opposite... accepting someone elses personaly interpretation of the verses without actually facing that they dont know what it feels like from here, nor do they know what verses to show.

 If I could be shown verses that make alchohol be evil than I would most deffinately think different. Rather as I read my Old and New testaments I see spiritual men referring to alchohol as "not expediant." Thus I see that it is something not to be done, but that most likely will be done by some... and the stronger halfs must not be stumbled by a weaker brothers questioning.... only by a strong brother leading them astray.

1st John 2:10 "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him."

2nd Corinthians 5:13 "For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God, or whether we be sober it is for your cause."

Matthew 11:19 " The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttunous, a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Act 2:15 "For these are not drunken as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

Psalm 31:6 "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto the bitter of soul. (darby)

Ecclesiastes 9;7-10 heres 7 "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart, for God now accepteth your works.

There are more verses than this too. They all refer to being drunk as evil, but to moderation in the happiness of living for the Lord as a beneficial thing. Verse 10 of ecclesiastes makes it very clear. We are nothing but vanity all the days of our life, and the only way to truly bring Glory to God continually is to keep yourself happy living for God with all that he has given you/us.

The verses are there folks, I did not make them up, the fact I am asking what the core of them means does not mean I am trying to justify myself. If I choose to drink a glass of wine to myself, or with a friend that wont stumble you (because you wont know, and I would be wise to haver that glass of wine with someone I can trust is not stumbled by me), so this is a question for mutual growth, not some vain pride of my own.

God bless. lightsavour out

Yeah I agree with BEP, even though I am from a smallish town in Canada, we still hear things like this growing up all over as well. And he's right, they are no longer (or never were) for God, but are outrightly for Satan. The other comment he made that they might as well become bars/clubs caught my attention too. In truth we would be benefitted by them doing this, and so I agree with him, because then its just clear-cut satanism. Right now it is definately satanism, but it is harder to preach that people are living abominations towards God, when nowadays these couples have children together (in different ways, changes in sexual preference, or adoptions.) It still has to be done, or at least God fearing Churches have to stand up for truth, but it is just alot harder to do then to preach about drinking/fornication/adultery.
It all really comes back to opening up the whole word of God and professing faith in its entire. That way the Church is guided by its members, and not the building, or the creed written on the wall. When one member sees hypocrisy they should be able to stand up against it without fear of being hassled. In these churches that accept abominations there would be absolutely no way to deal with other real issue, let alone the homosexuality just based on accepting the one wrong openly as right.

It is a sad day, but we can be thankful for much light being shined in our time to combat the evil shadows. Who knows, perhaps the homosexual movement is really an undercurrent of unbelievers really wanting us genuine believers to become stronger in the truth. I'm not deluding myself that they live abominations for our benefit, but it belies the truth to pretend like persecution only paints the end times. Persecution (even deceptive persecution like these gay churches) always means there is much light at the same time. We should not be consumed with trying to reach those who pretend they are already for us, when they are most definately not, but we should be consuming Gods food, and he will feed us with the opposite light of these places. Then, when our prayers are the sharpest we will see every evil step the world takes painting the love of God alive and well.

 If the world was just alot of sad individuals who did not gather in they're failure, then that would show that we are NOT doiing what we are here for. It is when evil gathers that we see how real this war is. Again, I am not saying they purposefully live for our benefit, but rather than God has taught us the tools of the devil, and so we should not only avoid his advances, but pray for those souls involved in his movements.

Hope this helps in what is only a volatile situation in our present and continuing day of grace. A help I would hope can reach some of the lost souls before it is too late, but that continues to be my prayer for this abomination age.
God bless
-lightsavour

This is interesting, but my point would be that God doesn't need to prove himself anymore than he already has. Also, I wont go into it because Its a long story... but I'm sure you brothers/sisters have heard of "The Bible Codes?" It is another recent find due to technological growth in the past 100 years, and it is pretty convincing. But in the end, im of the opinion that it constitutes adding words to the bible, seeing as the words they have discovered dont all rest within the contextual truth of the Bible. So these kind of things might help Christians themselves see bigger pictures, but I doubt they aide the Holy Spirit in winning lost souls to Christ. If the blood of Jesus doesn't suffice, the oil he gave Israel isn't going to change a thing.

Just my opinion. I've been away from ChristiansUnite for a while, so I've been posting alot of my opinions today... trying to get some feedback, see if i haven't lost touch with present day thought.
lights out

 I think what you are trying to say is this : Deut 6:13 "Thou shalt FEAR the Lord thy God and serve him, and shalt swear by his name."
 When we consciously fear God it is a love and an untold degree of respect. It is a fear that empowers us to see as God sees. When we do not fear the Lord, then we live in the palm of the devil... and he will make us fear God in an ungodly manner. When men fear God like theyre enemy, they in fact are fearing/honouring the devil... and the devil is whispering of Gods righteous judgment in the persons ear. In the moment when you fear hell you are the farthest from God, and on your way to hell.

Matthew 10:28 " And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul : but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

It is such a wonder for us who are now on the other side, to consider why people would ever want to remain terrified of enemies or God, whichever way they see life/death.

 Excellant post though God Sent. I'm sure everyone knew what you were saying, but I think the "fear of the Lord" is a good study in words, thats all.
God bless.
-lightsavour

Tom, that is one way to answer the question. I'm looking for others.
God bless you.

 Yeah those are the verses Roger.
Amen

 Dreamweaver, good verse... but not actually the one i'm thinking on... so I will find it soon and bring it here.

 BEP, I agree with your verdict of day/night to rightly symbolize the addictions we should have, and the ones we shouldn't. Basically we should be addicted to the ministry of the Saints, and not to things that make us slave to other masters. That is a clear and consise answer indeed and I appreciate it. Buuuuuut

  I dont think you have answered my question. My question is not referring to slavery, but rather to the expediancy of our liberty. We do not continue to sin (Paul says God forbid MANY TIMES.) What I believe he means is that, being a new creature our hearts actually consider sin/vanity in a whole new light. Rather we consider sin IN LIGHT.... which is the new creature... seeing as really we cannot ever stop sinning until the end. The difference is that the Holy Spirit within us works against the slavery of sin like day against night, and our Lord being eternal day. So if we fail/sin/are vain, then we see the motive for what it is, and understand immediately that to follow that motive is evil, and to confess it and move on is being immediately back into communion. To me that is what Paul means, you can show me how Im wrong, and I will accept it if you can.

 So if "not sinning" is actually the new motive, then vanity is continual and my question is more pointed at being expediant about the beings that we are, and the things we express or consume in our beings.

 So I agree with your verses, but I dont believe they are referring to anything more than who we are slave to now. I agree we are slave to Jesus who is day/light, but I do not yet accept that this means full abstaination is demanded for full communion.
I found the verse
2 5:13 "Whether we be beside ourselves it is to God : Or whether we be sober it is for your cause."

 I guess i'm trying to focus the spirirtual spotlight on differentiating between sin/vanity, excess/moderation, expediant/not-expediant. I understand that being high, or drinking to BE social is completely false, but if you were high unto God (in nature), or drinking a glass of wine with 1 or 2 spiritual friends (when you are already social, and in fact deeply in fellowship with close friends) then perhaps the person or persons in the situation should never have to justify themselves because it does not constitute "stumbling."

  sorry, I just wasn't going to let you off that easy

lights out

 My first point would be that the people in the Old Testament are indeed judged by Jesus even though he was not yet here in the world in the flesh. The truth is that the angel of the Lord (when referring to God himself, and not a lesser angel in the Old Testament) was VERY MUCH JESUS! Jesus Christ is our Creator as well as our Lord and Saviour, if He was not omnipotent himself then his sacrifice on the cross would be fruitless, and he would not have been able to come back from the Hell he faced for all of us in thise 3 long, dark and lonely hours. So in regards to the Old Testament writers and theyre inspiration from God to write the word, they were already in contact with the Saviour, and that is why Jesus is the word. As a man amongst men he limited his glory, and that meant directing all glory to God, which is completely righteous and correct. But what it means is that the Saviour was on the earth in Spirit from the beginning of time... and He still is.

 I wont be the least surprised to find people who the world refers to as "savages" in present iscolation, or past, to be in heaven, and to have actually received great individual blessings and sightings of angels when they believed under those circumstances.

 In regards to children who are not yet at the "age of understanding" there is King Solomon (i believe it was Solomon) who had a son that was taken from him. And he said that he would see him again. That is how most people get peace about the children who are taken before any understanding or responsibility has sunk in. They will be in heaven most certaintly. And this should give parents peace who for some reason or another are afraid to have children at any time because of the Lords coming. Our God is never wrong in his times, and there will be an innumerable throng saved in the time of tribulation.

 Also, in regards to people who WILL be in hell that might try to claim they never heard the clear Gospel (and perhaps are alive right now), are most definately responsible souls already. This ownership of Christians to see that God is the one who has blessed ALL men, the sinners like the righteous, is really the lifeblood of the Gospel. We could all just sit back and say that Truth and Knowledge will allow God to take care of saving those who will be saved. But if everyone had done this, then truthfully following the bible back to the first moments after Jesus was resurrected and seen, we would have no gospel to tell, because the Holy Spirit would not have really been inside those who had believed, and thus History would have forgotten Jesus immediately just based on what He taught beforehand.

 So we can be sure that all men and women in any country that furthers knowledge and can consciously consider theyre soul and God, has become responsible towards God based on God being true, and the Holy Word of God being the only good thing for anyone to know. However, we can also be sure that God's only purpose for Christians to live out theyre time, rather than immediately be resurrected upon faith, is the furtherance of the Gospel.

 The simple fact that we can ask this question about those who do not know the Gospel is the Holy Spirit inside us acknowledging that there are souls we each know personally that we wish to see saved. Souls whom we probably all feel we have failed in our presentation and testimony of the Gospel and its power. So the Holy Spirit is taking care of any soul who will get saved already, but our individual questioning about justice is in fact the Holy Spirit in us taking ownership of some of the Gospel telling responsibility.

 We should also be aware that the Holy Spirit can use a Gospel Tract, a positive song/hymn/movie/natural experiance, a "hello", and an infinite amount of ways to reach the lost. To me that is what makes me consider perhaps those who seem to chant that "the end is nigh" have in fact lost touch with what the Holy Spirit's full purpose is. The Holy Spirit in us wants to tell the good news, not to keep ranting about the end (which if you ask me is just Christian pride, seeing as no one knows if the Lord will come in a minute from now, or 5000 years from now.) The imminent end has been such for 2000 years, and it will always be throughout time, but the only way to be prepared is the GOODNEWS, and thus to me the Holy Spirit would have us be happy lights, not ominous ones.

lights out 

Hi, I also greatly appreciated this topic, and probably because I've been thinking too much about our spiritual enemies recently, and this kind of put it all in place. Kind of like you were used by the spirit to combat the temptations. Since that is what we are still here for, I thank you for being here.

Now I have a deep question. I am going to be doing you a slight disservice however, because right now I dont know where the verse is I want to ask about.
  It is the verse where Paul says "Whether apart from the body, or sober we are Christians."    Perhaps that is overly-paraphrased as well.... but I am sure there is only one verse very much like this.

 My question is rather strong. If a Christian stumbles harshly and either drinks some alcohol, or takes a drug... since they cannot be separated from God.... then do they have the potential to see God clearer (depending on what they consume, and to what degree.)  My point is referring to the "vain imaginations" of the world that is really Satan trying to deceive us. Because we are Christians, when we fail we will be bombarded with the imaginations of evil like any person, but being separated unto God in heaven already then dont we also face the vitality of our spiritual place that much more?

 If you need an example then consider this : a young man has 2 glasses of wine with some friends of the world. They begin by talking casually and normally, but as they continue to get buzzed the friends start cursing more and saying derogatory jokes. Now the Christian sits there and feels the weight of his failure because he knows he could have avoided the feeling of semi-helplessness with the situation. Now lets say the Christian gets up and walks home to avoid failing anymore in front of his friends. As he walks home he is praying earnestly because of the vacancy he feels in his heart for the lack of purity. As he prays he gets Gods resolve that in fact what he did was a normal vanity of men throughout time, and that God honours his honesty, and overlooks his sin/vanity. Then a bird dips really low over his head and the boy feels almost closer to God as an individual thinker than he ever has before.

 Do you say that the boy has received a blow of deception, and that his prayer is not heard because he is slightly buzzed? Do you tell him that he has to wait until he is completely clear headed.. and probably longer like  until he sees drinking wine as the devil to be restored to communion with God?
 OR...
 Do you acknowledge that the devil uses whatever we grant him to use to throw us off communion? So if we were going to rebel anyways then perhaps spiritual advice given to the boy that isn't well thought out can be the devil, just as much or more than any glass of wine?


  There are verses throughout the bible that seem to permit drinking, and no verses that denounce marijuana smoking. All is left up to interpretation, and many wise men/women who have not studied this question have given answers without thinking that actually contradict the rest of the bible. In Jeremiah there are several references to incense being burned unto idols and it enraging God against the idol worshippers, basically because they could see His throne but were honouring evil in the process. As well there are verses about priests using incense in theyre personal prayers with God and receiving blessings for it.

 Now I am not advocating marijuana to be the incsence of the Bible, I really cannot be sure either way and it would be terrible to make a bold statement on such a volatile subject. So the reason I bring this up is because I have personally not been perfect in abstaination since becoming a Christian, and I can honestly say that I believe what Paul is referring to in the verse I hope someone (or perhaps I) can find, that no matter what we do now, we are Christians. I have heard rappers/movies refer to marijuana as incsence recently, and I'm asking this for real benefit to my life, and to the lives of the generation.

 Anyone who categorically states that marijiuana is included in the word Pharmacon(or whatever it is) and thus denounces my question as evil without having any understanding of what it feels like to be slightly buzzed, or slightly high... will completely miss an opportunity to really help a recent addict.
 My problem of verses really stems from the way Solomon and David talk about wine and feasting. They seem to say that it is ok in small doses at the appropriate times. (I understand for almost all Christians do not accept there is an appropriate time to drink or smoke, so dont get me wrong, I am just looking for alot of honest answers here.)
 Even Jesus drank wine all the time at meals, and only stopped because he was being called "a winebibber"(someone who tells fanciful stories when they are drunk.) He said He would not drink again until heaven because He knew it would stumble men. Also Peter and the Apostles were said to be drunk when they spoke in tongues, and theyre reply was not "we do not drink because it is evil", but rather "we are not drunk for it is not yet 3"

 So then iffff... some are willing to see my question is vital in this generation, because it is obvious we CANNOT categorically denounce wine (even spirits for someone grieving), then how do we point out marijuana in a verse?

 Perhaps now you would point me to the verses that say we should not be revellers. And I will agree myself that this is the most direct point God makes about the minds excess, but most having never smoked marijuana as a Christian would not be able to comment on revelling being a choice or a constant when you are "high", so to me those verses alone do not do justice to the question. Nor do combining the verses that "might" be referring to marijuana togther prove or disprove it to be inscence and not a drug.

 So I am looking for personal interpretations of the devil, and his strength to sway an aware and conscious mind for God simply because that mind chooses to smoke or drink.

tough question I expect, God bless you in your answers.
lightsavour

 Brotherjim
  True, unanswered prayer can often be attributed to these things you mentioned. I dont think that there are any apostles in our world now though, so that is irrelevant to the pastors(elders) who are always odd numbered so as to come to answers from within.

 Prayer is a fundamental part of any assembly of believers being lifted up and blessed by God. I think what you are really getting at is the lack of blessing an assembly will feel if the Bible is not being opened and read in its entirety. If the Bible is not seen as a whole, then different parts will be given priority. If this happens then souls are simply not aligned right to begin with. They may be saved, but if they are not aligned right in they're gathering with an assembly then yes they may not be asking for the right help from God.

 Prayer itself, however, is grown in private. It is not a word but an expression of need from a soul to its God. Prayer is spoken of in a natural sense from the world, but the world doesn't understand what it is saying. The nature of prayer is the expression of need. Those who have never had a prayer answered are not yet saved. Even the work of salvation is the answering of a prayer, which shows prayers nature. We are told to pray in a closet, and many descriptions in the Bible show people getting on their knees in reverance. So we know that prayer is a serious matter in its appearance, but it is a "genuine matter" to the person.
 
 We are given pictures of how people pray to help us when we are young in faith, which I am, so I know the struggle to understand prayer. Prayer itself is "the expression of need" (even in worship we come as undeserving saved ones.) I cannot repeat the "expression of need" enough. A Christian that is going to genuinely open they're heart to God, is also one that bends down figuritively regardless of the situation.

 It is the attitude that a person brings in prayer. I remember praying out loud when I was unsaved, walking down my street begging for God to make me want salvation. It was all I knew as a possibility for getting saved, I was outrightly against God, and yet knew only he could soften me. I was approaching in need.

 When I got saved I was rejoicing so much. What I did not know is that the simple faith I used to accept the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work for myself, was the same faith that was going to be grown day by day as a christian. Do we remember that day of salvation? We remember all the days of agony, and think, "why did I waste so much time, it was so easy!"

 "For by grace are ye saved through faith" - If after you get saved you look at the word "saved"(which is what takes place) and change it, it can become this.
 "For by grace are ye helped through faith"   that is prayer

 Our prayer life needs us to be as active as we were in salvation. What did you do in salvation? Nothing. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all. I speak not in riddles, my understanding Gods grace is bound in my simple faith. If I dont have faith in Gods sufficiency, then my prayers will not be answered.

 And as brotherjim said earlier, there is also the matter of asking amiss. Sometimes you seek a certain help, but God wants you to pray for patience. Just keep on, and pray for more help in prayer day by day.

 God bless.

 Happy to bring happiness.

 I did not know where this came from, but it is becoming clearer. I have been struggling with horrendous failure in my young christian life. God has been blessing in that my desire to be out of this hole or pit has focused my heart on the source of my salvation. I see now how fully that my Lords blood was shed for me. The Lord Jesus Christ was not a sacrifice for all, he was a sacrifice for me. Thus he is my life, his blood is my redeeming sacrifice. I reside here now, and pray for more simplicity every day.

 God bless.

  How much of the change in our lives do we attribute to the actual shedding of blood our Lord Jesus Christ did for us? There has been a change in our heart (the Holy Spirit now resides in it), a change in our souls position (found in Christ at the right hand of God) and our lifes expression has a new source (the work of grace at the cross of Calvary.) All of these changes are bound in grace.

  Faith is the substance of a willing heart. It allows a sinful person (one without spiritual understanding) to take in the truth of the cross (salvation from sin.) Faith is not the determining factor of salvation, as faith in salvation can only be expressed because of grace.

  So how much more change do I expect in my christian experiance? I am nineteen and expect a lot more. I am ninety and expect a lot more. The change that finds us here was bound in the grace when the Lord Jesus Christ shed his blood. What other source will ever give us change? If it be by the blood of that finished sacrifice that I still get change today, then what of faith?

  Faith is a forgotten thing. It was of monumental discovery that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for me. That if I was alone in need, he still would have come because God is perfect. What now of that discovery? It is the source of my spiritual life, and as my physical life must needs be changed to allow the Holy Spirit to magnify the Lords will in me, I see that it is also the source of my physical life for him.

  Gods grace has answered every claim my sin had, yet it has also made a new creature out of me. This new creature is bound in the price paid for my soul being ransomned. I am bound in the grace of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I am no longer of this world, I am of heaven. If grace be the source of my life, then faith(the willingness to approach God through the truth of grace) is needed continually. I dont want to be a once faithful soul. Do you?

  All I know is that I dont know everything God wants from me. I dont even know the start, because the start is exactly what I am troubled with now. What I know, is that it will start with faith. I will reside in the sacrifice of my Lord and find much blessing and divine direction. I am a simple person. We must needs pray for God to make us simpler. What is wrong with naivety if we are in the right? The gospel is foolishness to those who aren't saved, but it is the power of God to all that believe. It is our power, in every moment are we blessed because of the same grace.

  Grace that will be remembered for all the endless ages of eternity. Grace that can change a soul from residing in death to residing in life. Grace that is the only source for any spiritual change in our lives. Grace that makes a christian wise, because heavenly teaching is of a divine contrast from even within our soul. Grace that grows exponentially as our faith(willingness) allows it. Grace that God will work with us continually even as we avoid his clear small voice. Grace that I'm even before you now with a note of care. Grace that worked in other souls and cried for mine, the same that I write of now, that fills my every void.

  God bless you all. I pray this will be a note of encouragement to even one.

 Sorry I could not wait Petro. I do not claim to have seen the church that the Lord Jesus planted, I HAVE seen it, and do see it bi-weekly. You cannot even know of what I speak if you have no faith that our Lord has a people gathered together in exact accordance to God's desire. If your faith does not stretch this far, then my talking with you is as talking against the wall. I speak of the commandments from the Bible. I speak of the will of God desiring those who are genuine to be gathered together in remembrance. I have said nothing beyond this, yet you continue to haggle me as if I have spoken wrongly.

 Show me my error if I have spoken wrongly of Gods divine planting of assemblies. You have not offered scriptures to me on your feeble understandings of the father as one filled with the accountability of an entire assembly that God plants. God only plants the seed of a circle of believers with the means of correction/teaching/discipline. God plants an assembly of believers with the elder(s) first. This is not something I speak of as concerning a paper I would order online. No my dear friend, God's divine hand raises an elder from a disciple. One who is the representation of Gods government in an assembly. This is not a light thing in no manner of speaking.

 Correction is something that can be taught, as Paul did with many of the New Testament assemblies. However, Paul mentions many times about the removal of false teachers, and he always tells the assemblies/churches to do it. He is telling them to listen to the Holy Spirit and be the discerning voice that writes a person out of the circle. Paul cannot tell anyone in any assembly what to do, because he is just an Apostle. Not just, but in regards to an assembly, he can only teach, he cannot discipline, he has no part in the governance of an assembly. You must see the need for accountability, I dont know why you are avoiding my questions with roundabout comments, trying to make my points seem as childish things in the night.

 I will remain with this question until you bring me evidence otherwise, or until you see what God commands from an assembly/church.

God bless.