A saying I heard somewhere, cant remember where... "Preach the gospel.. and if you have to, use words".

Peppermint tea is great.. although technically its an infusion, not a tea. I found its much better for waking you up than caffeine in the morning. You also dont get that tiredness afterwards like you do when caffeiene effects wear off.

Pilgrim, I appreciate your desire to tell people the truth about Christmas. I myself don't celebrate Christmas as such. I do not attach any meaning or value to the traditions that my family hold ( they aren't Christians), and I treat this period in December the same way that I treat every other day in the year. I do howver think that it is a good time for reaching out to the unsaved, simply because of the name and its connotations.

Yes, you are totally right about church though, it wasn't meant to be a place for evangelism, but for believers. I agree with that. I also think that God uses people, weak and sinful as they are, to accomplish His purposes. If someone believes in Christ as a result of a church service then that can only be a good thing, provided it is a genuine conversion, and they continue in discipleship.

In answer to your question.. no God cannot be worshipped with lies. When I live by myself, I won't put up decorations either or any such things. Our church stopped putting up a tree and all the stuff that goes with it too. It is a time when unbelievers are actively encouraged to come though, and if that particular service is intended to be evangelistic, then so be it. Its making the most of an easy opportunity to witness to people.

You make some good points, and while I would never think any less of people who choose to disagree, I pretty much agree with what you're saying.

Depends what you mean by smarter. Women are far better generally speaking, at conveying theur thoughts, linguistic skills, interpreting feelings, encouraging and supporting.

Men tend to be more objective and logical. Thats not to say there arent areas where we both overlap though. the problems only arise when people don't like the way God has set things up, and try to reverse the set up.

Its interesting that almost all women think they are smarter than men. Yet if their feelings get involved in a situation, often all that alleged "smartness"  goes out of the window.

One of the key issues  in leadership lies with responsibility for the flock. That has been given to males only. I'm talking elders of the church here.

With regard to women teaching other women and children, I can't see any scripture that tells us thats wrong, I also see no problem with women correcting men if they are in error. Thats healthy for all believers.

Check out Titus 2:3-5

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5  To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Titus has more about roles of adults and young people in the church aswell.

LOL! Very clever I wonder who said that? heheh

Different in a good way. hehe Yeah you're right though, that is better than some things. I suppose its more just my personal reaction towards stuff that i see going on around me... england has generally become a very spiritually confused nation. What Paul called "another gospel" is rampant over here. Kinda makes you more alert to subtle things i suppose. Folks here will have to forgive my forthrightness. hehe

"Merely listening to evil music (like reading Satan's evil words) is not a sin. Sin enters when the music causes you to sin. "

It depends what the context is. If you simply happen to hear it playing, then no, thats not sinful, if you are listening to it in order to discuss it, then no, thats not sinful. If you are listening to it because you enjoy it, and you know it to be evil, then yes, that is sinful. you may not think it causes you to sin, but that doesn't mean it isn't stirring up within you you're old nature, or subtlly undermining God's Word.
Knowingly listening to music that promotes a rebellious attitude to God is sinful. It is rebellion.


1 Samuel 15:23  For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry...

I'm not saying that I don't listen to "secular" music, because I do. What I am saying is that we must be careful that anything we listen to doesn't have a bad effect on us.

Music is more powerful than people imagine it to be. Like many other things it can become an idol in someones life, an addiction if you like.. that is why Satan has so successfully used music to promote his evil standards. It is also one of the few mediums that requires no thought on the part of the reciever. How often have you heard teenagers on the bus singing some horrible lyrics, that half the time, they don't even understand. Satan is subtle.

Downloading commercially available mp3's is illegal and it is stealing. Whether you agree with the amount the companies charge or not. The artists don't get the money for the product if they record labels and ublishers dont recieve revenue. simple as that.

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s."

Also, on thw whole subject of commercialised Christian music. I am against that for the most part. I'm totally against copyright on worship songs. Totally against it. If the songs were given by God, as the artists claim they are.. then surely the ownership is God's? Not theirs to be copyrighted.

If the songs are more for ministry or perhaps entertainment (to use an inappropriate word) then the artist is imho rightly entitled to copyright the music and to recieve payment for the recorded works.

As Rich said though, when the money becomes the goal for producing the music, they've missed the point.

Brown is definetly their best CD. I know what you guys are saying about selling out but I do think that they are reaching more and more folks out there. I just wish they still made music like Brown (and even some of the stuff from TFEOS). They should've came out with the hardcore tracks for singles instead of the ballad/party time stuff.  

The way to reach out to people is not to become more like the world. But to be seen to be different from the world. The most common mistake made by all these christian rock bands. Poor immitations of the worlds music, laughed to scorn by metal fans everywhere I'm sure.

Be Thou My Vision
Amazing Grace
In Christ Alone

Can't really think of a modern worship song that does a lot for me.. I like stuff with meaty words that you can really get your teeth into, stuff that encourages you in your faith, not necessarily one that makes you feel anything. Althoguh Be Thou My Vision gets me every time hehe

Phatfish, Delirious ( earlier stuff), 4Him, classic rock ( gradually weaning myself off secular music though).

ok don't laugh... I'm currently listening to 4Him, Hymns. I've recently rediscovered hymns. The words are so great. Inspiring. Being a modern day Christian in an environment full of commercialised "Christian music" I had to learn to appreciate hymns. glad I did though. Fantastic stuff, really spurs you on in your walk with God.

Well I'm sure my opinion will go down like a lead balloon here.. but here goes anyway.

From my own experience I can tell you that you must be extrememly careful what musical listening habits you form as a teenager. I got into heavy metal and "dodgy" music as well as lots of other stuff, and being a songwriter and musician, I'm sure you can see why. I used to use the reasoning of "theres no skilled music out there" to justify listening to music that was totally ungodly. I was wrong and foolish to do that. I think the uprising of heavy rock music has been one of the most dangerous things for teenagers since the 60's. All it stands for is the world, and the worlds music, and the worlds values.

There are "Christian" bands who play metal too. I realise this. All this is, is an attempt to immitate the world. Seriously. Most "Christian metal" bands are jsut poor clones of their wordly counterparts and I believe are an insult to God. I personally used to create music like this, and had to repent of it. I invariably discovered that, as much as I pretended otherwise, that music never brought me nearer to God, it drove me away from Him, causing me to be more uncontrollably into the music than anything else. I'm not saying I went mad headbanging etc.. it is often more subtle than that. It promotes within you a heart attitude of rebellion, which ion God's eyes is equal to the sin of witchcraft.

I still like heavy music, and to a degree still have a small amnount in my collection, but as I feel convicted I am getting rid of it, and certainly listen to it far less often than I used to.

When you get rid of stuff though, you have to have something to replace it with, be it a closer walk with God, or other non offensive skilled music. I realise that this is a contravercial topic, and I'll probably be misunderstood and roasted for this opinion, but neverthless, its what I have found to be true in my life.

As you say, its the heart attitude that is important. I had a big problem with music as an idol in my life, and all the culture that went along with it. I was especially attracted to heavy metal, or generally any heavy music with a lot of attitude. What you devote your time to affects you profoundly, just as your peers affect you. If something becomes more important to you than obeying Christ then there is a problem.

This applies to what you think about and dwell on, what you devote your time and energy to. If something promotes ungodly attitudes or interests then it is best to avoid it. I'm not saying that goths necessarily come into this category, because I dont know enough about them to comment.
What I do know however is that the human heart will try to find any conceivable way of excusing our sin, and allowing it to exist within our relationship with Christ. If you find that you are repeatedly sinning in the same ways and asking forgiveness, then repeating the same process endlessly, it is often a  good idea to look at what you are feeding your mind and soul with.

Luke 6:45  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


Philippians 4:8  Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I know this was perhaps straying from the topic a little.. but I think its relevant. I see this kind of thing a lot in young Christians who want to know if their lifestyle is wrong or not. The best guide for that is to read the Word with an open mind, not with a closed mind, using it to back up what you have decided you want to believe. God give us all the grace to do that.

I'm not saying that we have to dress up. I never said that. I totally agree with you, and all the passages that have been quoted. I'm just throwing in some ideas.. when I mentioned the false humility, I meant what i said. I've seen this in some churches. It almost becomes a competition to show who is the most humble. Unfortunately people are sinful and the heart is wicked and will trap you in all sorts of subtle sins, just when people think they are getting somewhere.  

A slight variation on this theme is the popular thinking of younger christians who dye thair hair pink and green and wear chains and generally look like punk rockers. hehe Its inverted pride. "hey look at me, I'm different.. I'm cool.. you dont have to look all posh to be a christian".

I don't want you to misunderstand me... I'm just simply presenting the other side of the coin.