Coptic what is your religion?  I ask because you say you keep your religion separate from your politics.  Though I won't get into a huge debate about it, there is a vast difference between religion and faith.

How can anyone keep their beliefs out of their politics?  This seems completely counterintuitive to me.  How do you come to political views that are the polar opposite of your beliefs?  Unless of course your political views are in actuality, your beliefs, which seems to be the case.

I'm failing to see why you are taling a silly jab at BEP, nor what Mass' divorce rate has to do with gay marriage.

I am Christian, although I associate with no particular denomination.  I wasn't raised in a religious household.  Although, my parents, as children, attended a Lutheran Church and the Church of Christ Science.  They allowed me to study religion on my own, and to come to my own conclusion of what religion I would choose.

As a teen I had some tough times, as most kids do.  I struggled with the loss of friends and loved ones, my own diseases and addictions, and feelings of helplessness and loneliness.  It wasn't until I turned to the Bible for answers and put faith in God that I was finally freed from these feelings of loneliness, and found the strength to free myself from the addictions and diseases that made me the weak person that I was ashamed of being.  There are still times when I feel vulnerable to the sins I habitually committed.  Yet, when I feel that way I know I can turn to the Bible (or other books not included in the canon of the Old or New Testaments).

I am not a Christian fundamentalist, and if you've read my post about Revelations in this same forum you probably could have guessed that.  I am very skeptical of biblical prophecies too, especially those from any apocalyptic text.

Anyways, this should be sufficient enough for you to avoid starting a debate over what the difference between "religion" and "faith" is.  After all, we both know the difference and we'd just be wearing our keyboards.  

So, let's get to the nitty gritty....

First, let's look at the definition of the word "politics" :
Social relations involving authority or power

Obviously, God has the ultimate power over us, and I believe that.  But I also respect the freedom of others to choose NOT to believe that.  Therefore, while I believe that God is the ultimate power and authority I wouldn't support any law which would remove the freedom for me to come to that conclusion.

I don't support sumptuary laws, and believe they should be repealed.  I believe the answer to this country's problems is a commitment to civil liberties and personal freedom.

Everyone has such a naive faith in law.  Everybody says, "There ought to be a law against it!"  So they make a law against it, and it makes everything more complicated.  You can hardly move today without a lawyer telling you what you may or may not do.

Forbidding sin will not make sinners stop sinning.  They will only make the sinners resent those who try to force their beliefs upon them and confirm their hatred of society.

We are not a part of some theocratic monarchy or are slaves to anything besides what we allow ourselves to be a slave to.  These freedoms are allowed to us by an "American ideology" which has been documented in the Constitution and its amendments.

Furthermore, I think it's interesting to point out that the majority of the amendments to the constitution have been to allow for more personal freedoms or to limit the government's powers.  The few instances when the opposite has been attempted (limit personal freedoms) have resulted in the amendment being repealed or have failed ratification.

So, if you guessed that I don't support the Federal Marriage Amendment or bans on same-sex unions, you would be right!

Christian and liberal (but NOT a Democrat!  I lean more towards Libertarian views).  That's me, and I'm not alone.    (Maybe I should have posted all this stuff in the "Introductions" forum???  Its more of a proper introduction than anything... and probably doesnt belong in this "Gay marriage" thread.)

Also, I don't know what "I'm failing to see why you are taling a silly jab at BEP" means?  What's a BEP?

... and to answer your last question about the seemingly unrelated facts I posted about divorce rates.  Massachusetts it the only state that currently allows same-sex marriages (Vermont allows same-sex unions).

I guess what I mean is "historical Jesus" in the context of "what did Jesus really say and do"?

Intrigued is a fair word I guess, however, I am bit more than intrigued.    Present day Jesus is pretty intriguing too, don't you think?  

Grace and Peace!

Absolutely!

[YAY!]

[size=10]YAY![/size]

 

I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

 

I guess what I mean is "historical Jesus" in the context of "what did Jesus really say and do"?
And, obviously, we can learn this from the gospels (our "Q"uelle).

The prevailing theory in the study of the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke is that Mark was the first gospel, Matthew and Luke are rewritten versions of Mark.  But there are many sayings in Matthew and in Luke that are NOT in Mark.  Furthermore, if you have had the opportunity to read the Gospel of Thomas you will find MANY MANY more Jesus sayings.

Whether or not you believe that these were actually Jesus sayings depends on what you think of the Gnostic Christians and the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas.  Some of you may not believe the Gopsel of Thomas to be authentic, and I think that is a personal decision.  Either way, I think its fun to study.  Don't you?

Nobody has any thoughts?  Are my beliefs consistent with the majority of the people who are reading this thread?  It doesn't seem like it.  Just wondering if anyone thinks I'm a nut.  I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

It's also interesting that Oklahoma has the highest divorce rate.

I think it's interesting that Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate than any other state in the US.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml
http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd111999g.html

As a general point, I absolurely reject the notion that people who speak out against the war in Iraq are somehow supporting Al-Queda.  This is the kind of easy to understand political pablum that the Bush campaign was so eager to sling at any opponent.  Simply call them unpatriotic, in a hyper-sensitive time, and everyone will condem them.  Its simple-minded to a disgusting degree.  Furthermore, to even imply that God is working through the U.S. military in order to deal with an enemy of Israel is nauseating.  In order to beleive that, one would have to close one's eyes to every action and motive of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle and Wolfowitz; Ignore the fact that the initial reason for going to war was an absolute lie, and finaly, somehow come to the conclusion that God thought he could use a little more oil.  Using the Bble to justify one's warring ways is a perfect example of how easy it has become to use the holy scripture when it is convenient to do so, and tailor it a little if need be.  To beleive that W. is acting with the will of God, is to live in a sick delusion.  It is the same sort of delusion that has justified thousands of evil actions over the centuries, by many world religions.  Killing another human being while wearing a cross around your neck, or proclaiming that it is in the name of God, or for the protection of Israel does not make it God's work.  If God is to judge us all, I'm comfortable with the positions I've taken.

**THANK YOU**!!!!!!

murder is murder is murder.
invading another country without provoked attack and slaughtering innocents by the tens or hundreds of thousands is against the teachings of Christ.

Your response is blatantly ignorant and typical of what Christianity has become to many today:, a way of justifying the legislation of moral principles, despite the grossly apparent hypocrisy inherent to them. NO abortion but YES to the CONDONING THROUGH SUPPORT of the killing of people in a country who never attacked us, including women and children?

the government conducts war KNOWINGLY accepting civilian casualties from the outset. bombs and weapons are built with your tax money that will kill everything for hundreds of miles around. most recently, all "military aged men" from 18 to 34 were prevented from leaving fallujah prior to the tens of thousands-strong invasion by the US and UK. these men needed no prior evidence of insurgent involvement. we just "had to be sure."

THESE ARE NOT THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.
the "moral majority" of pat robertson, and now the bush dynasty, has wrestled the word of Jesus away from Jesus in order to justify hatred and murder.

I couldn't have said it better, my friend!

Your political views should fall in line with your beliefs.  You beliefs should be your way of life and hence effects everything you do.  I wouldn't vote for legalizing any sinful act whether it be , sexual, physical or otherwise.  I.E. drug use, gambling etc.

Yours may.  Mine don't.  Enough said.

As far as the french or any other Euopean country, I could care less about what they have to say.  They fallen far from truth and it makes me quite sad to see where they are socially and spiritually.  Maybe even where they aren't rather.

I don't even know how to respond to this.  Especially since the quote I posted is not from modern times (from the 17th Century).  I don't see how you can draw lines between modern or recent European values (social/spritual) and those of the past.  Where did your family emigrate from?  Can I assume that you descend from European heritage, not unlike many Christian Americans.  So , then, what are you REALLY trying to say here?  I think I'll follow your example of READING BETWEEN THE LINES and letting it mean whatever the heck I want it to mean (absolutely nothing at all).

Abortion is wrong because KILLING IS WRONG.  PRESIDENT BUSH SUPPORTS KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN TRYING TO INCREASE OUR COUNTRY'S POWER IN THE WORLD.  No Christian should ever support killing and invoke God's name as his mission to do so.

President Bush is a killer.  His armies kill babies and innocent people.  If we support President Bush we support killing babies and innocent people too.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

Bush also supports the death penalty.  Many convicted criminals have been put do death on his watch as governor of Texas (and they continue today).

French.....  Useless, you of course miss the point of what God says.  So then it is no small thing.  Of course anything of God is small to you, most likely.  Everything of God is big to those that believe in the LORD and his word.

I just refuse to let my religious views affect my political views.  This is important to me.  Especially, in our "democratic" society where my vote can affect others.  I love my fellow Americans and keep them in my thoughts when I cast my votes.

Does this make sense to you?  It must not, because you were able to so quickly summarize my post (before it was edited) in two words, "gay garbage".  And that I think is a shame.  Shame on you.

Oh, and what is wrong with the French?

[More"gay"Garbage]

More"gay"Garbage

I've edited my previous post.

Instead I'll post a quote :

"Small minds are much distressed by little things. Great minds see them all but are not upset by them."
  - Francois de La Rochefoucauld

I'm guessing you all know about the 11 states that voted against gay marriage's or unions as well?

EDITED!

did arafat become a Christian?

Um, no.