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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
286809 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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57931  Prayer / General Discussion / Re:Hey! I just got PROMOTED! on: November 30, 2005, 06:07:10 PM
Congratulations!!

57932  Prayer / General Discussion / Re:"Happy Holidays" on: November 30, 2005, 06:05:30 PM
Hi Terri,

This has just been a small portion of what gripes me. The ACLU and other groups that are in association with them are doing all they can to take Christ/God out of our public. Even to the point of changing history in our American history books. If you look in the "Parenting" or "Politics and Political Issues" you will see that I am not hesitant in the least to preach against them and to get the truth out.

It tears at my heart to see children do not know of our Christian heritage and only know the lies that these people want them to know. You will also see many groups that I have listed and what they are doing to fight against this abomination.


Quote
Where is the ACLU for Christians?

They are the primary ones fighting against us and then boldly saying that they are not.

57933  Fellowship / You name it!! / Re:Look out, everyone for airIam2worship...... on: November 30, 2005, 04:57:56 PM
Hi air,

Glad to hear you had a good time with your daughter and that everyone is safe.

Haven't heard anything from Bronzesnake or his family. My brother is doing fine. Thank you for asking.

57934  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Prophecy, Drought, Earthquakes, Famine, Pestilence, War, and Strange Weather. on: November 30, 2005, 01:50:00 PM
Experts: Next Hurricane Season Likely to be as Active
By VOA News
30 November 2005

The busiest Atlantic hurricane season on record ends Wednesday, but forecasters say next year's season could be just as active.

Since the season began June 1, a record 26 storms have achieved wind speeds high enough to be classified as tropical storms.  The latest, tropical storm Epsilon, formed in the Atlantic Tuesday.  Thirteen of those 26 reached hurricane force.

Three hurricanes: Katrina, Rita and Wilma -- temporarily became Category Five storms, featuring winds of at least 249 kilometers per hour.  All three weakened before making landfall.

Experts say Katrina was responsible for the deaths of some 1,300 people as well as tens of billions of dollars' worth of property damage.  It wiped out some Gulf Coast towns and left at least 80 percent of New Orleans under water.

Some experts say this year's severe storm activity is part of an active cycle that will last more than a decade.  Others contend it is the result of global warming.

57935  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:News, happening today on: November 30, 2005, 01:36:01 PM
Economy Grows at Robust Pace Despite Storms

WASHINGTON (AP) - The economy grew at a lively 4.3 percent pace in the third quarter, the best showing in more than a year. The performance offered fresh testimony that the country's overall economic health managed to improve despite the destructive force of Gulf Coast hurricanes.

The new snapshot of economic activity, released by the Commerce Department on Wednesday, showed the growth at an even faster pace than the 3.8 percent annual rate first reported for the July-to-September quarter a month ago.

The upgraded performance reflects more brisk spending by consumers and businesses as well as more robust investment on residential projects than initial estimates revealed.

"In anybody's book this is an outstanding performance for the economy," said Ken Mayland, president of ClearView Economics.

On Wall Street, the positive report gave stocks a lift. The Dow Jones industrials gained 28 points and the Nasdaq was up 7 in morning trading.

The third-quarter's showing marked a sizable pickup from the 3.3 percent increase in gross domestic product registered in the second quarter of this year.

GDP measures the value of all goods and services produced within the United States and is the best barometer of the nation's economic standing.

The 4.3 percent growth rate matched the performance posted in the first quarter of 2004. The last time economic activity was higher was in the third quarter of 2003, when the GDP soared at a blistering 7.2 percent pace.

The upwardly revised reading for GDP in the third quarter also exceeded the expectations of business analysts. Before the report was released, they were forecasting the economy to clock in at a 4 percent pace.

Consumers and businesses did their part to keep the economy rolling - even as they coped with elevated energy prices during the third quarter.

The lifeblood of the economy, consumer spending, grew at a sprightly 4.2 percent pace in the third quarter, stronger than the 3.9 percent growth rate previously estimated. The new figure marked the fastest pace in consumer spending since the final quarter of 2004.

Businesses boosted spending on equipment and software at a 10.8 percent annual rate in the third quarter. That was better than the 8.9 percent growth rate first estimated for the period and close to the 10.9 percent growth rate seen in the second quarter.

Investment in housing construction and other residential projects grew at a brisk 8.4 percent pace in the third quarter. That was up considerably from the 4.8 percent growth rate initially estimated but was down from the 10.8 percent pace registered in the second quarter.

An inflation gauge tied to the GDP report showed prices rising at a 3.6 percent rate in the third quarter, slightly less than initially estimated for the period.

When food and energy prices are excluded, "core" inflation- which the Federal Reserve watches closely - actually moderated. Core inflation rose at a rate of 1.2 percent in the third quarter, a tad less than first estimated and down from a 1.7 percent pace in the second quarter.

The good news on the economy, however, hasn't helped President Bush's approval ratings in polls, which have sunk to some of the lowest levels of his presidency.

While the overall economy has weathered fallout from the hurricanes well, the labor market has felt more deeply the devastation from the storms.

Employment in September declined for the first time in two years; In October payrolls grew by just 56,000 - an anemic performance.

When the government's new employment report for November is released Friday, many economists are forecasting a healthy rebound, with the economy adding more than 200,000 jobs during the month.

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and his colleagues, at their Nov. 1 meeting, said the hurricanes only "temporarily depressed" employment and production and that rebuilding efforts would energize activity going forward.

Mayland and other economists believe the economy in the October-to-December quarter will grow at a pace of around 4 percent.

More worried about the prospects of inflation flaring - rather than any serious business slowdown - in the wake of the hurricanes, the Fed opted to boost interest rates in November and signaled another rate increase was likely at its next meeting, Dec. 13.

Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast in late August, with Rita following in late September. Those storms, which battered crucial oil and gas facilities, choked off commerce and destroyed businesses, sent energy prices skyward and fanned inflation fears.

After Katrina, energy prices surged to record highs. Oil prices shot up past $70 a barrel in late August and gasoline prices topped $3 a gallon. They have moderated since then. That's helping to lift consumer confidence along with retailers' hopes for a brighter holiday sales season.

Meanwhile, a measure of corporate profits tied to the GDP report showed after-tax profits falling by 3.7 percent in the third quarter from the prior quarter, reflecting the impact of the hurricanes. Over the year, however, profits are up a healthy 9.4 percent.

57936  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:News, happening today on: November 30, 2005, 01:31:24 PM
Huge natural gas field 'discovered' in Texas
Major energy firms seeing benefit in developing domestic sources
Posted: November 30, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Though it's been in production for nearly 25 years, a huge natural gas field in Texas is now drawing the attention of major energy companies – but only after independent operations proved its worth.

Fort Worth, Texas, is built on top the Barnett Shale natural gas field, a field so vast that the U.S. Geological Service estimates it contains some 26 trillion cubic feet of yet-to-be-discovered natural gas. Estimates are that as much as 160 billion cubic feet of natural gas are in place per square mile in the Barnett Shale formation. The Barnett Shale field is the largest gas-producing field in Texas, covering some 15 counties in the northern part of the state. The core area comprises about 120,000 net acres that stretch north from Fort Worth to the western outskirts of Denton.

The field was undiscovered until 1981 when independent Mitchell Energy drilled the first well. The largest operator in the Barnett Shale field is Devon Energy Corporation, one of America's largest and most successful independent oil and natural gas companies, headquartered in Oklahoma City. In January 2002, Devon completed the acquisition of the field's pioneer, Mitchell Energy. Today, Devon operates more than 1,700 wells into the Barnett Shale core area, wells that today produce more than 550 million cubic feet of natural gas per day.

According to Brian Engel, manager of public affairs for Devon, the company's success in large part derives from developing a light sand, water fracturing technology that permits efficient natural gas exploration from the field.

"The Barnett Shale formation," says Mr. Engel, "has rightfully emerged as the largest natural gas field in Texas and one of the most important natural gas fields in the nation."

Now that the independents have proven Barnett Shale to be hugely productive, major companies including ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, ConocoPhillips, BP and Shell have moved in to buy up production rights.

"It makes sense," explained Tom Biracree, senior financial editor with John S. Herold Inc., an energy research and investment valuation firm based in Norwalk, Conn. "The industry is seeing a decided trend moving toward the development of on-shore natural gas resources in the continental U.S."

Why? "It's an economic market play," explained Biracree. "With the price of natural gas at $10 per thousand cubic feet, not $2, it becomes very attractive for the major industry players to focus more attention on exploring for natural gas right here at home."

Biracree continued, "Developing natural gas resources in the continental U.S. also permits the major companies to avoid the political risk of working overseas. The rules of the game don't change here like they can when you're dealing with a foreign government."

Biracree noted that the industry is learning today how to explore deeper and extract more natural gas profitably from what, in years past, were considered riskier enterprises.

"We have growing expertise in the technologies which make extraction of natural gas from shale profitable," said Biracree. "Besides, today the demand for natural gas is growing in the United States and the market has established very attractive prices. It's the same principle why Wal-Mart trucks in snow shovels in a snow storm." In other words, opportunities like Barnett Shale are market-driven.

Technically, the U.S. Geological Survey describes the Barnet Shale formation as the "Greater Newark East Frac-Barrier Continuous Barnett Shale Gas Assessment Unit." The rock is identified as a Mississippian formation, dating back some 330 million years. Geologists describe the formation as "source rock" or "reservoir rock," assuming that the organic material in the metamorphic shale has morphed into the "kerogen" traditionally assumed as needed to produce natural gas.

Barnett Shale is deeply fractured, with fissures that tended to be sealed by calcium carbonate. The field went undiscovered until Mitchell Energy experimented with employing large gel fracture methods to open the wells to natural gas. The full potential of the field waited for the light sand, water fracture technology developed by Devon Energy Corporation, a technology that fractures the shale so the natural gas can be extracted. The Barnett Shale formation lies at a depth of between 1 to 2 miles below the surface, with the shale running some 400 to 500 feet thick.

Commented Jerome Corsi, Ph.D., co-author of "Black Gold Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of Oil": "With the field only discovered in 1981, the Barnett Shale natural gas resources were not known when Shell Oil geologist M. King Hubbert started worrying about 'peak production.' With natural gas resources this abundant, we can be reasonably assured there remains a large quantity of natural gas to be extracted at home, right on the continental U.S. That abundance should be apparent even to those who want to maintain the doctrinaire position that the Barnett Shale natural gas is organic in nature."

57937  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Another school censoring Christmas? on: November 30, 2005, 01:27:53 PM
Another school
censoring Christmas?
Teachers reportedly prohibited from wearing pins, using C-word
Posted: November 30, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Teachers at a Georgia elementary school reportedly were told to nix any religious pins and refrain from referring to a party as a "Christmas" party, while the local district has censored certain religious Christmas songs from its "winter" program.

The Alliance Defense Fund, a religious-liberties law group, wrote a letter to the district yesterday informing the Jackson County School System in Jefferson, Ga., that it stands on shaky constitutional ground due to its actions.

"Frankly, it's ridiculous that we're even discussing whether it's OK to say 'Merry Christmas.' I'm sure just about everyone would rather have a merry Christmas than a meaningless winter holiday," said ADF senior legal counsel David Cortman in a statement.

Cortman penned the letter to the chairman of the board of education and the superintendent of the school district. According to ADF, the letter was written on behalf of a teacher in the after-school program at Benton Elementary School.

The district has reportedly prohibited teachers from wearing "any pins, angels, crosses, clothing" that contain any religious connotation or affiliation, referring to any party as a "Christmas" party, or displaying a Bible in their rooms. ADF says the district has also removed certain religious Christmas songs from a "winter" concert and censored the word "God" from another song.

"Jackson County school officials are attempting to prohibit teachers from expressing any religious aspect of Christmas," Cortman stated in the letter. "Classroom decorations may no longer include nativity scenes and angels. Jackson County has gone so far as to prohibit the common greeting 'Merry Christmas,' and also now refers to the Christmas break as 'Winter Break.'"

Says the attorney: "Many school districts aren't trying to be difficult; they simply don't know the facts about the law. The fear, disinformation and intimidation that the ACLU and other groups like them have promoted over the years with regard to religious expression on public property at Christmastime have led to such misconceptions. ADF desires to educate schools, teachers, and students on the truth about what the law really says."

As part of ADF's Christmas Project, attorneys allied with the organization have contacted more than 9,100 school districts nationwide this year to inform them of what is constitutionally protected religious expression at Christmastime.

57938  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Louisiana hails Judge Moore-inspired bill on: November 30, 2005, 01:22:30 PM
Louisiana hails Judge Moore-inspired bill
Act would prevent courts from ruling on acknowledgement-of-God issues
Posted: November 30, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Ron Strom
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

The Louisiana Legislature has approved a resolution urging Congress to pass the Constitution Restoration Act, a bill that would prohibit federal courts from ruling in cases involving government officials who acknowledge God "as the sovereign source of law, liberty or government."

During a special session this month to address Katrina recovery issues, Sen. Mike Smith, a Democrat, introduced Senate Concurrent Resolution 30, which passed the body by a 34-0 vote. The measure passed the state House by acclamation.

The first of its kind in the nation, the resolution finds that "… the federal judiciary has overstepped its constitutional boundaries and ruled against the acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty and government by local and state officers and other state institutions, including state schools. …"

The measure urges Congress to pass the Constitution Restoration Act of 2005, saying that by doing so lawmakers would be "protecting the ability of the people of Louisiana to display the Ten Commandments in public places, to express their faith in public, to retain God in the Pledge of Allegiance, to retain 'In God We Trust' as our national motto, and to use Article III, Section 2.2 of the United States Constitution to except these areas from the jurisdiction of the United States Supreme Court."

As WorldNetDaily reported, the legislation, H.R. 1070 and S. 520, sponsored in the House by Rep Robert Aderholt, R-Ala., and in the Senate by Sen Richard Shelby, R-Ala., was birthed in the aftermath of the ouster of former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who was sanctioned by the courts for acknowledging God by way of a Ten Commandments monument in the state's judicial building. Moore, now a Republican candidate for governor, is a constituent of both lawmakers and was instrumental in drafting the measure.

Touted by some supporters as one of the most important pieces of legislation in U.S. history, the bill states:

    The Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element's or officer's acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.

The legislation also addresses what many high-court watchers consider a dangerous trend: Supreme Court justices looking to foreign law and rulings for guidance when deciding cases. States the bill:

    In interpreting and applying the Constitution of the United States, a court of the United States may not rely upon any constitution, law, administrative rule, Executive order, directive, policy, judicial decision, or any other action of any foreign state or international organization or agency, other than the constitutional law and English common law.

Under the bill, any judge who violates the proposed rule by making "extrajurisdictional" decisions will have committed an offense that is grounds for impeachment.

The House version currently has 44 co-sponsors, while the Senate bill has eight.

Retired Judge Darrell White, who lives in Baton Rouge, La., and is founder of Retired Judges of America, praised the Legislature's action, highlighting on his blog a recent survey by the Anti-Defamation League showing that 64 percent of the American people believe religion is "under attack," and 53 percent say religion as a whole is "losing its influence in American life."

Wrote White in a op-ed piece published in the Baton Rouge Advocate: "[The Constitution Restoration Act] – the ACLU's worst nightmare – would eliminate Michael Newdow as a topic of conversation. We should have done it a generation ago."

A step in restoring Christian America?


57939  Fellowship / Parenting / Who owns your kids? on: November 30, 2005, 01:16:13 PM
Who owns
your kids?
Parents ask full 9th Circuit Court to rehear school sex-survey case
Posted: November 30, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Seven California parents filed a petition with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals to set aside its controversial decision declaring they had no right to be "exclusive providers of information about sexual matters."

Ruling on a complaint against a sexually charged student survey, the three-judge panel concluded Nov. 2 parents "have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students."

With the new filing, the parents are requesting that the case be reheard before the full panel of judges.

Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of Florida-based Liberty Counsel, which represents the parents, said the 9th Circuit's ruling "strips parents of their constitutional rights to protect their children."

"This ruling is an assault on every parent whose child attends public school," he said. "Parents do not cease being parents when their child walks through the schoolhouse gate."

There is no set timetable for the 9th Circuit to rule on the petition, Staver noted.

The petition says that if the Fields v. Palmdale School District ruling stands, the public schools must come with a warning that, with the exception of treason, "the school has absolute authority to teach whatever it decides, no matter how objectionable or inappropriate, to any child, at any age, at any time, in any manner."

Questions in the survey, which was conducted in class, included asking children as young as 7 years old about the frequency of:

    * Touching my private parts too much

    * Thinking about having sex

    * Thinking about touching other people's private parts

    * Thinking about sex when I don't want to

    * Washing myself because I feel dirty on the inside

    * Not trusting people because they might want sex

    * Getting scared or upset when I think about sex

    * Having sex feelings in my body

    * Can't stop thinking about sex

    * Getting upset when people talk about sex

Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote in the the unanimous opinion for the court [pdf file]:

    We agree [with the previous ruling], and hold that there is no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children, either independent of their right to direct the upbringing and education of their children or encompassed by it. We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students.

The controversy began in 2001 when a volunteer "mental health counselor" at Mesquite Elementary School set out to conduct a psychological assessment test of students in the first, third and fifth grades.

A letter to parents asked for their consent to conduct the study but did not indicate that questions of a sexual nature would be asked. The survey included 79 questions divided into four parts. Ten of those questions were of a sexual nature.

According to the court's opinion, the plaintiffs took action after their children participated in the survey and later told their parents about the sexual questions. Seeking damages and injunctive relief, the parents charged the district violated their federal constitutional right to privacy.

57940  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Prophecy and End Time Series. - Israel on: November 30, 2005, 01:12:07 PM
 Rabbi: Disengage from State

In new book, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe says Israel should be replaced with ‘true Kingdom of David,’ calls on followers to refrain from praying for Jewish state’s wellbeing. ‘We are now in exile,’ he says
Efrat Weiss

A prominent Jewish messianist has called for religious Jews to disengage from the State of Israel due to the evacuation of Jewish communities in the Gaza Strip last summer.

 
In a new book entitled "Between Light and Darkness," Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe, a leader of the Chabad Chassidic sect that believes its chief rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah, says religious Jews should view the secular government as an "administrative body, like the British government who controlled Israel before the country’s establishment.

 
Wolpe also says, "The religious Zionist public should prove that the State is unholy, and cannot serve as a means for achieving salvation. It must not pray for the country's wellbeing. We are now in exile and are waiting for the kingdom of the house of David."

 
Wolpe's call represents a sharp change from traditional Chabad-Lubavich thinking and match similar calls by some segments of the national-religious community to disengage from the State in reaction to the Gaza disengagement. While Chabad, like most ultra-orthodox groups, has always been reticent about secular Zionism, group members serve in the army and have rejected insular approach of other orthodox groups in favor of engaging the secular world in order to encourage Jews to observe the mitzvoth, or commandments

 

Sharon a 'false Messiah'

 
The cover of "Between Light and Darkness" carries a picture of the lit Temple's Menorah, and underneath it a darkened picture of the Knesset's building.

 
In the book itself, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is referred to as a "false Messiah" and as Haman, the historic nemesis of the Jewish people.

 
The bulk of the book is dedicated to the disengagement plan and to the uncertainties it spurred within the religious Zionist public.

 
"So many prayers were said from the bottom of the heart in the last year, in a bid to prevent the eviction and destruction," Wolpe writes. "The heart must wonder, why did God do this to this land? How is it possible that such a wicked man like the prime minister was able to jump over so many political hurdles, until he achieved his goal, the crime of the withdrawal" he asks, and answers:

 
"It is we that gave him the power. We determined that him, his state and his government are the beginning of our salvation. We blessed him before an open bible every Saturday. With such powers, it is no wonder that the false messiah storms forward without stopping, while taking his devotees and the rest of the Israeli people down to the abyss with him."

 
‘Replace Israel with true Kingdom of David’

 
According to Wolpe, the pullout was a sign from God that there is no relation between the existence of the democratic state and salvation, and that the religious public should therefore cease to believe in the holiness of the State and its institutions.

 
Referring to the religious Zionist teens who forcefully attempted to prevent the disengagement, Wolpe writes that "the Orange youth prays only for one thing: That the current rule, which is called 'the State of Israel' is abolished and replaced with the true Kingdom of David."

 
In the post-pullout period, Wolpe's ideas are not a rare sight among the rightist public. In a conference held in Jerusalem a few days ago, the participants wholeheartedly supported the principles expressed in the book, and thousands danced to the words of the song, "we do not believe in the rule of the heretics, and disregard their laws."

 

57941  Welcome / About You! / Re:I am the new person on: November 30, 2005, 11:02:37 AM
Hi Praise1,

Welcome to Christians Unite. I am one of those other grandparents that Brother Tom mentioned. I have three grandchildren now with a set of twins on the way.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts also.



57942  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:News, happening today on: November 30, 2005, 09:42:37 AM
I understand what you mean about not much money to spend, however if each and every Christian did the same thing it would amount to a whole lot. There is an organization in my area that puts out a book, advertising of sorts, that lists all the Christian owned businesses. It helps a lot when trying to decide on where to go shopping.

All of my family already has at least one book shelf loaded with study Bibles so I am trying to come up with something else along the same line instead. I do like your ideas though. If more people would do these things it wouldn't take long to get our message across.



57943  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re:Lowe's listens:'Christmas trees' on: November 30, 2005, 09:26:57 AM
Amen Brother Tom,

Jesus is the reason for every season!


57944  Entertainment / Computer Hardware and Software / Re:Firefox 1.5 released today on: November 30, 2005, 09:20:25 AM
Hi Joey,

Yes I have it downloaded and installed. So far the only extension that is not working is "Smiley Xtra". I tried to download an upgrade for it that claimed to be compatible but it kept coming up not compatible. I am going to wait a few days and see if another upgrade will be available for it. Sometimes it takes awhile for the extensions to be upgraded correctly.

Everything else is working just great.

57945  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:News, happening today on: November 29, 2005, 11:00:48 PM
It's away with the manger

Novi subdivision tells family to get baby Jesus off lawn; homeowners say Christ belongs in Christmas.

Jennifer Chambers and Brad Heath / The Detroit News

NOVI -- The multicolored nativity scene on the Samona family's front yard is under attack.

The Samonas' neighborhood association has ordered the Novi family to remove its seven-piece plastic display or face possible fines of $25 to $100 per week.

The family isn't budging and neither are its three wise men. The Samonas have vowed not only to keep the display, but also are threatening to enhance it."If you take this out, it's not Christmas anymore," said Joe Samona, 16, as he reached down and scooped baby Jesus from the creche on his parents' front lawn.

A letter sent by the association to the Samonas has brought to their front yard the nation's latest skirmish over just how and where the Christianity of Christmas should be on display.

Already this year, religious groups have taken aim at retail giants such as Wal-Mart and Target for replacing Christmas with fuzzier "holiday" greetings, to say nothing of the annual battles over local governments building nativity scenes in the public square.

The dispute also reinvigorates the issue of what rights homeowners have to wear their beliefs on their front yards. When homeowners join neighborhood or condominium associations, Michigan courts have said they must abide by the rules the group sets. Early this year, for example, a judge said a Macomb Township veteran could not fly a Marine Corps flag from the front of his condominium because having it there violated association rules.

Last week, Joe's parents, Betty and Frank Samona, received a notice from the community association that sets regulations in their upscale Tollgate Woods subdivision. It said the family may be violating rules that prohibit lawn ornaments, statues or outdoor art from being placed on the lot without prior approval of the board of directors.

Then it simply says: "Please remove the nativity scene display from your front yard."

Joe, an outspoken high school student, said the family takes great pride in the holiday decorations it pulls out of the basement every year, which also include a Santa and Mrs. Claus and Minnie Mouse and Winnie the Pooh outfitted in red for the holidays.

It's not uncommon for people to stop and take photographs of the nearly two dozen figurines displayed across the hilly front yard among the landscaping and brick paver walkway.

"Please remove your nativity scene? That's the part that disturbs us. We have the lion (statue) and the Santa and Mrs. Claus and they specifically point out the nativity scene? That's ridiculous. We refuse to take it down," he said.

Association sends letter

Dean Williams, the community association manager and author of the letter, said according to association rules in place since 2000 and signed by the Samonas when they bought the home in 2002, homeowners must request permission to place statues or lawn ornaments outside their home. The Samonas say they never signed any such document.

Asked why the letter specified that only the nativity scene be removed when several other objects stand on the lawn, Williams said the complainant -- another neighbor in Tollgate Woods -- complained only about the nativity scene.

"As a management firm, we do not go out and police. The community will decide what will be allowed and won't be," Williams said. "It's a community decision. It's not a management decision."

Williams would not reveal the identity of the complaining homeowner but read a portion of the complaint: "Although I'm not offended by it, I take issue about advertising personal beliefs and interests by putting them on display whatever the belief or interest may be."

Although the letter says fines of $25 to $100 will be imposed if the Samonas do not correct the alleged violation, Williams said he will not be fining the family unless the management company receives a second complaint. The Samona family members said they have consulted with a lawyer, but decline to say whether they would appeal to the homeowner association. If they did, the appeal would be reviewed by the association board of directors, which includes only representatives from the developers and the management company, but no homeowners. If the Samonas were to be fined, and they refused to pay, a lien could be placed against their property.

Retailers defend practices

The Novi debate is a new battleground in what already has been a contentious year for purveyors of holiday trees and season's greetings.

One Christian group, the American Family Association, launched a Thanksgiving-weekend boycott of Target because it said the chain had banished the word "Christmas" from its advertising and store displays. Now it's drawing up a naughty-and-nice list of retailers and their policies on mentioning Christmas to customers.

"We'll let the American people decide for themselves whether they want to support someone who sells holiday trees," said Randy Sharp, special projects director for the group. He said about 385,000 people signed up for the online boycott.

"It's part of a big picture to de-Christianize America and secularize it as much as possible," Sharp said. "People are more aware that the retail industry is trying to do away with Christmas. If they were trying to make their customers happy, they'd use the word 'Christmas.' I think that's pretty obvious."

Target insists it's doing no such thing. A spokeswoman, Carolyn Brookster, said the chain has no policy barring employees from saying "Merry Christmas" to anyone. "We have a holiday theme and that's what we look at. We have different themes from year to year. We don't want to push public policy; that's not what our job should be."

Wal-Mart landed in the crosshairs of a similar complaint this year. A Roman Catholic group announced a boycott because it said the chain's Web site treated Christmas differently from Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, and because an employee's e-mail to a customer called Christmas a mix of world religions. Wal-Mart changed its Web site and apologized for the e-mail, and the boycott was quickly called off.

"It seems, in the past few years, people have noticed how much Christmas has become so secular and they're reacting to that, and we're seeing more and more people making a point to ask that stores mention Christmas," said Kiera McCaffrey, a spokeswoman for the Catholic League.

Nativity scenes a hot topic

Controversies have raged for years over nativity scenes on courthouse lawns and in city parks, and schools have debated how much of the holiday's spiritual message to present to their students.

This year, the American Family Association sent pamphlets to county officials around the country explaining their rights to erect nativity scenes on public land.

"Some people might suggest we're in the midst of a religious revival of sorts, so it's not surprising that some groups would find the public celebration of Christmas to be inappropriate, and not in keeping with tradition," said Sam Thomas, a Michigan State University history professor. "But that's a tough argument to make because traditions are always changing."

Display is family tradition

Every year for the last three years, Betty Samona set up the display the week before Thanksgiving outside her home near Meadowbrook and 12 Mile roads.

She said the display is important to her because it symbolizes what Christmas is about and it's a tradition for her Christian-Iraqi family.

"I cried when I heard what they wanted me to do," Betty said. "How I am going to take out Jesus, Joseph and Mary?" she said, near tears.

"I feel like putting out more things."

Family members say they have received nothing but praise and support from neighbors they know and from strangers who pass by and encourage them to keep the display. On Monday, a neighbor drove by the display and expressed her support for the creche.

Sheryl Walsh, community relations manager for Novi, said the city does not have a local ordinance against holiday decorations and has not received a complaint about a homeowner's nativity scene display in the last decade.

"We are a multicultural community and we afford everyone the opportunity to celebrate the holidays," Walsh said.

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