Very good post, sincereheart.  It is true that many miss the whole idea of grace and turn back to a law, usually one of their own creation, not even God's Law.  

This whole thing seems to me to be the reason that Paul wrote such a strong explanation in Galations.  Just a few years after Jesus' ascension, there were those who were telling Christians they had to become Jews first and observe the Law.   There were a lot of problems early churches were having, but the strongest letter is to those who are considering it necessary to follow the Law.  The same problem continues to this day.

Thank you,
Marv

Why would God tell you what the woman should do?  I would expect him to tell the women what they should do, and the men what they should do.  So you should be hearing God tell you to love your wife as Jesus loves the church.  If you are hearing that the wife should obey the husband, and not hearing that the husband should love the wife as Jesus loved the church, maybe you are hearing Satan twist the scripture to mess up your life.

Marv

Hi,

The concern I have over much of these types of discussions is that usually they are of this type.
1.  This is good (according to what the person knows or thinks)
2.  Christians should do good.
3.  Therefore, Christians should do this.

We end up being Pharisees all over again, creating a law of behavior that isn't correct and doesn't produce holiness or salvation, just rules to live by.

As for fur from animals, is the problem with fur or with the idea of fashion, showing oneself off as a better dresser, or is there a problem at all?  Using fur is one way to use something from animals that often have to be removed for public safety anyway.  Is it worse to trap raccoons and use their fur, or trap raccoons for public safety to control rabies and throw the whole animal away because noone wants the fur or meat?  If you don't want to wear fur, don't for the glory of God.  If someone else wants to, let them for the glory of God.

With fur or meat we go down the is it right to only use the animal for that road, then if someone tries not to "waste" the leftovers, then we go down the "it's not right to feed animals to animals" road.  I would agree that we shouldn't be feeding parts of cattle to other cattle as a health control measure, but now there are those that want to forbid feeding those parts to cats and dogs, based on their view that it isn't right.  Would you prefer the fur farm ground the carcasses and included them in your burger?  After all, wouldn't that be the right thing if it is wrong to "waste" them.  And look at all the cat and dog carcasses that go to waste every year.  Many people in the world would eat them, let's set up packing plants to use those animals instead of wasting them.

We can talk health effects.  It hurts ones health to be exposed to air pollution.  Maybe we should have a rule that no Christian should live where there is air pollution.  Ridiculous, you say.  Only until you look at the number that want to control others' diets and exercise and smoking and drinking etc.

Isn't one of the major points of the Bible that we are to be concerned foremost with our personal sins and our personal behavior?

If corn is fed to cattle it isn't because it must be, it is because the cattle feeder buys it.  If you think it should be fed to people and that would be the right thing to do.  Then your responsibility (and if you think that is what is right, it is your responsibility) is to spend your money to provide it to people.  Just outbid the cattle feeder and ship it to the people you want to help.  Simple, easy, no law.

It is easy to say that a farmer should grow vegetables for people on his irrigated land, and not alfalfa for forage for cattle.  But alfalfa breaks pest cycles, gets deep nitrogen back out of the ground (preventing nitrates in drinking water) and improves soil tilth and health.  In addition it reduces erosion from what vegetable crops would have.  So is it wrong or right to grow alfalfa?  It can be both or neither.  The farmer tries to maintain a balanced system producing what works in his situation.  There are many that want to make the decision of how he farms for him.  They often don't have a clue about his land and farm and often the rules and laws choose one evil over another.  Often the farmer's decision comes down to balancing good things against bad things.  Eliminating options often results in poorer conditions than before.

It is easy to say the cornbelt should grow wheat and not corn.  It did at one time.  The wheat largely left the cornbelt because diseases made it.  You force the farmers to grow wheat, you better be willing to eat wheat full of toxins produced from fungal infections (all natural, some pretty toxic, some carcinogenic).  So is it better for that farmer to grow wheat instead of corn when we have to throw the wheat away due to it's poor quality?

What I believe is wrong from a Christian perspective is people deciding on their limited knowledge that something is wasteful or morally wrong and expecting others to follow their beliefs.

If you don't want to eat meat, fine.
If you don't want to wear fur, fine.
If you don't want to have over 200 square feet of living space per person in your house, fine.
If you don't want to ever take the smallest drink of alcohol, fine.
If you want to run 6 miles a day, fine.
If you want your vehicle to get at least 40 mpg, fine.
If you want to keep the temperature in your house at 50 degree in the winter and 85 in the summer, fine.
If you want to homeschool, fine.

Where it would be wrong is to take your decisions and impose them on others.  That is not fine.

Marv

Slow Graffiti,

It seems to me there is a problem in discussing religion with your friend the way you are going about it.

Trying to answer the questions that come up results in flying willy nilly all over based on misunderstandings of Christianity and the Bible and you never really get to start with the foundational truths and go from there.  

I would suggest getting a good basic truths study and going through it with him.  Or maybe there is a church where you are at that provides a beginning Chrisitians class that covers those things in a short period of time.

I would approach it something like this:  I really enjoy being able to talk with you about religion, and truths.  I have learned from our discussions that I really need to do some Bible study myself on just what the Bible says and where it says it.  I have found this study (or class) and intend to go through it to help my own understanding, would you be willing to study (or go) with me?

I think that would be more productive than how you are currently witnessing, because as the discussions are currently going, all religions tend to be given similar strength.  From my college days, those discussions would tend to be almost some New Age, pick whatever from whereever, or turn into a worship God any way you want.  It is enough years since my college days that I don't really have a good recommendation for a study right off the top of my head.  But my real first choice would be a class on the fundamentals, it adds the positional authority of the teacher, many campuses have Christian organizations which are very active.  I would really suggest contacting them for help on finding such a class.  I would think they would be offering such a class on a fairly regular basis.

Thank you for caring enough about your friend to ask for help, you are reflecting God's love.  Best wishes in your walk.

Marv

Slow Graffiti,

I wanted to say one other thing.

Your friend is troubled about a "fair" God and asks how God could condemn someone that leads a good life.

I would ask your friend what happens if he keeps all of man's laws except he murders one person.  Is he given a free ride because he has done such a good job the rest of the time?

Can your friend ever remember one time when he has sinned?  Then he is condemned to death because the wages of sin is death.  But we are fortunate indeed that God is not fair, for to be fair he would let us perish, it would be the only fair thing to do.  Instead he loves us so much he took our penalty on himself by dieing for our sins, not his own sin, but as an innocent man he was executed'.  So your friends sin is already paid for if he but puts his faith in Jesus, then Jesus takes his place.

Going back to our laws, it would be as if your friend had committed a murder, and someone else was willing to be executed to pay for his crime while he goes free.

Currently, your friend is on death row awaiting execution.   If he puts his faith in Jesus (not just believe there was a Jesus, but really trust Jesus to be his Lord), the cell door will fly open and he will be a free man.  Free like he has never been.

Praise God that he is not fair.

Marv

Read Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.

So we see the creator through the creation.  Even without the Bible, we see the creator.  God is evident if you open your eyes and look around.  Note that there were people who were saved before there was a Bible, like Abraham.  We are to take the Bible to all people, but even if they do not see a Bible or hear it preached, they are still without excuse.

This also accounts for why so many religions tend to share things with Christianity.  The people who started the religion could see the truth, but also missed part of the truth.

I hope that helps.

Marv

[Book of Life]

Brother Love,

It seems you, and others here as well are still clinging to the idea that the KJV is God-breathed.

Then please answer this,
Why in Revelation 22:19 is the proper wording the wording of the KJV where it talks about the book of life and not the tree of life as other translations render it.  (Translations not based on the KJV or the Textus Receptus)

KJV Rev 22:19  And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.

Eramus' text for Revelation was the basis for the book of life rendering in the Textus Receptus.  When his work came out, he only had one manuscript with Revelations, and some of Revelations such as the last 6 verses weren't even in that manuscript.

So he back translated from a Latin manuscript.

The Latin words for book and tree are similar so a relatively easy mistake to make especially since the book of life is referred to in other well known verses.  The Greek words are very different so it would be an unlikely error in Greek.  The original Vulgate had tree(ligno) not book(libro) 19et si quis deminuerit de verbis libri prophetiae huius auferet Deus partem eius de ligno vitae et de civitate sancta et de his quae scripta sunt in libro isto , but the Latin manuscript he had had an mistaken libro for the bold faced word ligno.

When you study Greek manuscripts, there is no support for the word book even the majority text has tree, so the Textus Receptus, which is really based on no Greek at all at this place in the Bible stands alone.  It is a case not of some evidence against some evidence but of no evidence against all evidence.

So why should we accept the word based on a mistake in a Latin Manuscript and reject the word found in the Greek manuscripts, including the Majority text, not to mention the original Vulgate?

Marv

Allinall,

A good point.

I would like to add one other.

If the KJV was inspired (God-breathed) then why would the traslators have needed any other writings?  They could have written God's message to the English speaking people without consulting the Greek text, or the Latin Vulgate, or Martin Luther's German translation, or Tyndale's, or the Bishop's Bible which they were supposed to retain the wording of when possible.

The answer of course, is they wouldn't have needed those other writings.  There would be no need to translate since God's inspiration would have assured agreement.

Sometimes people will use the word inspired for when someone does something very well.  Like Wilt Chamberlain's individual high scoring basketball game.  I could agree that the KJV was inspired in that sense, but the KJV only people do indeed seem to use the word inspired in the God breathed sense, and that is just incorrect.

Marv

I think a Palestinian state is a necessary part of the war on terror.  The current situation is so perfect to create new terrorists.  There will be plenty of bumps along the way yet.  So many gain power from feeding off the situation.  They will do everything they can to derail meaningful solutions.

If Bush could pull that off, it would be a major accomplishment.

Marv

I am sorry to see him go, but he was clearly on the outside of the administration so I was actually surprised he stayed this long.

I would agree that Rice is probably the front-runner.

Marv

Hi all,

I was online in the wee hours (product of my fibromyalgia, can't sleep sometimes) when suddenly the most digusting porn started showing up.  The site was under a major attack.  I reported it at that time and quit because I didn't want to see more.  I knew a couple of the threads attacked that way and they are among the missing threads this morning.

Marv

Noone said that people should read and study only the NIV.

The basic question would be why do you seem to believe that only a small subset of the Byzantine Greek Manuscripts should be used and all others excluded?  Actually, the translators did not use Greek manuscripts they used a Greek text, the Stephanus text of 1550 (third edition), which, in turn, relied essentially on Erasmus’ third edition of 1522.

The Greek used for the KJV relied heavily on the work of Eramus, a Catholic Priest.  He back-translated the end of Revelation from the Latin Vulgate.  That is why in Revelation 22:19 Eramus had that "God shall take away his part out of the book of life"  and book should be tree.  Book only appears in Latin manuscripts not in Greek.  

So again why should a translation be based on a text from about a half a dozen manuscripts when we currently have thousands of manuscripts available.  Why just those few?

Marv

blackeyedpeas,

I did not say there was anything wrong with the KJV.  It is a good translation, especially with the limited resources available to the translators.  Most of it follows Tynsdale.  I think many people think the traslators had this great big pile of Greek manuscripts from which they worked.  They actually were rather limited,

The article was about the NIV and commented about if the original translators were inspired, why keep changing it.  I assumed the article would be referring as if the NIV were inspired.  Reading it several times.  I can see were the person might be referring to the KJV as inspired.  Would be a couple of problems with that.

First the traslators themselves clearly did not claim it, and even expected the work they did to continue.

Secondly, they weren't the original translators, as I said above, they mostly followed Tynsdale.  So if it would be the "original" that would be inspired, then you would have to say Tynsdale was inspired, and then you would be caught in the problem of if Tynsdale was inspired why the revision by the KJV?  People might find this series on the traslation into English of the Bible helpful
 http://www.bible.org/series.asp?series_id=117

Thirdly, I will just point to 1 John 5:7-8, the verse as it is used in the KJV was from a Greek manuscript clearly fabricated to get Erasmus to put it into his Greek New Testament that way.  Now having it the correct way, doesn't change that the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, what it does do is show that there was an error in the KJV and as such the KJV is not inspired by definition.  Here is a link to an article on this very thing.  
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=665

Last, I would point to Matthew 23:24 Instead of the "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" in the KJV it clearly should be "strain out a gnat and swallow a camel".  Those who can read Greek can check it for themselves.  It is an error in translation.  Nothing great, just shows again that the translators were not inspired and without errror.

The KJV is a fine translation, and there is nothing particularly wrong with it especially for those who study enough to be able to know, for instance, what "by and by" means and the other words that have changed their meanings.  It should not be elevated to something it is not, it is a tool to help trasmit God's word to English speaking people.  It has been a good tool for that.

The problem would be if one claimed the KJV is inspired and hence infallible, or if one claimed the KJV is the only English Bible to read.

The Protestant reformation was in large part a call away from tradition, it would be too bad that one of the great fruits of the Reformation would itself be used to establish another traditon.  Which, as you know, has already happened.   So once again people insist on a tradition, insist on rejecting God's grace by creating another law.  It is so sad.

Marv

From the article above.

"One might ask, if the translators were inspired the first time, why do they need to keep changing it?"

No Bible translator other than cults has claimed to be inspired in their translation work, including the translators who produced the KJV.

Marv

Grace,

Is it kind to him to continue this longer?  When you realize that it's not right is the time to stop.  Continuing in it will separate you further from God.  Your heart will harden, sin will do it's work.  It's not going to get easier as the wedding approaches, invitations are sent, you get married, maybe have kids.  It will never be any easier than it is now.

Yes it's hard, but I'm really concerned with your excuses, let's look at them.

1. "This man is a good man"  Not from what you've shared.  I'm not saying he is all bad, but he is not ready for marriage to you.  We can find a lot of good in people but that doesn't mean they are the right person for us.  Even bad people can love others, it doesn't make them good.  It does him no favor to continue, it just costs him more of his life.  He has problems that you staying just helps him deny.  If you had trouble finding the right guy before, maybe it's because you haven't been the right woman.  The right guy is never going to find you when you're living with someone.

2. "Right now we live together and he pays for everything. I wouldn't have a car to drive to work, or a place. I am pretty stuck. I can't go to my parents"  Finances often rears it's ugly head, but are you just living with him to get the bills paid?  Money is a lot of his power over you, it's only going to get worse if you marry or stay with him.  As for your parents, I have a daughter not much different in age than you, if I were your father, I would much prefer you coming home for awhile than continuing what you are doing.  I don't know what you've said or done with them in the past, maybe they were against what you were doing, and you just don't want to admit to them that you have been making mistakes.  
   All that, and they still love you.  Maybe conficts have been because they have seen your mistakes and wanted better for you, and you didn't respect that, if you are afraid of them "preaching" to you, I tell you a serious repentance goes a long way towards stopping that.

3."I think he will react very bad if I just decide one day I am leaving him."  Are you saying you are afraid of his reaction, that he might hurt you?  If you can even believe that that is a small possibility, you need to leave suddenly and not go back.  I would recommend a call to the abuse hotline to receive some counseling as to resources in your local area.  If you mean you will hurt his feelings, better now than 10 years from now, he has his friends to help him get through it.

4.  "I got a ring and now I should return it?"  Yes, you never should have taken it.  The ring symbolizes that good marriage you will never have if you stay, it is worthless in itself, it's just cold stone.  Get yourself right with God and there will be another ring, only that marriage you've always wanted will be there too.  I tell you my wife is not perfect, but she is the perfect wife for me, I waited for her, and we waited til marriage.  We have been blessed by two children that I am so proud of I can't even say how much.  If I had settled for less, I would have it.  You have less, but you can make the choice to have more.

5.  "I am even afraid what would happen to me if I am single. I know I am surrounded by temptation, too. Being with him inhibits me from trying anything with another man"  That really sounds like an alcoholic that drinks only beer justifying that he is better than the alcoholic that drinks wiskey.  You need a different man, a good man.  Yes, we are all tempted, but feeding your sin like you are doing now only makes it stronger.  Don't run from him into the arms of another, you need some time to work on yourself.  You are not going to be alone, God will be with you.  You aren't going to try things with another man because you don't have the opportunity, you aren't going to because you are God's beloved Grace, and you would not dishoner his love so, he will give you sufficient strength when you need it.

You are going to get right with God, it's not going to happen continuing what you are doing.  God is faithful, he will honor your sincerity.  You will find that you are giving up nothing, nothing, and receiving everything, but Satan will fill you with doubt, he will make you scared to turn away from sin.  Right now your sin removes you from God.  You are alone because you run away.  Turn to God and he will strengthen you and never leave you.

There is one verse right now that describes you perfectly,
Proverbs 26:11  As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.

You ever watch a dog vomit and then turn around and eat it again, that is exactly what you are doing.  You think about that, if you waver, visualize that dog.  It's time not to be that dog anymore Grace.  It's time.  Living with him, that's your vomit.  Are you just going to keep eating it and being sick.  How many times are you going to eat it?

Grace, you need to pray, ask forgiveness, ask for God's help.  Just spend some time talking to God, let it all pour out.  Give it to God, it doesn't need to burden you anymore.  You'll be free Grace.

Afterwards, I would recommend calling your parents.  Apologize for what you have been.  Tell them you are done living the way you have.  Ask them what they think you should do, ask for their help, but let them decide what to do.  If they tell you that they can't help, so be it.  If they can, great.  If they can't you thank them anyway.  You pick up the phone, call the hotline for help.    Maybe thay can't help a lot, maybe they can, but you are now a responsible adult, you will make do.

Maybe you know some people that would help, the more the better.  I don't think it would be good to have one guy come, that would look like you are dumping the current guy for him and that would be bad, but a group would be great.  Don't neglect to tell them what is happening, people will help if you are honest.

If you don't feel safe, call the police.  They will come so you can get out safely.  They would much prefer to prevent something bad from happening than to be brought in afterwards.

Things not to do:
1.  Don't worry too much about material things.  Your belongings aren't nearly as important as you are.  Don't risk yourself for them.  If you can, take what you can.  You are what's important.  Christ died for you, not for a stereo system.

2.  Don't take his things, or destroy them.   Don't break the law.  Don't make a big scene.  Behave as God would have you.  It isn't really his fault, you have made bad decisions.

3.  Absolutely no good bye sex.  What would be the point?  Turning back to sin at this point might, probably will, doom everything.

4.  Don't keep putting it off, Grace, once the Holy Spirit has convicted us and we know what we need to do, putting it off is a sin in itself.  If you keep putting it off, sin will weaken you, and you will never go.  Wait until it is reasonably safe, no longer.

Grace, you might be embarrassed and afraid to ask people to help you.  I tell you that not a single one of us hasn't done something that we are not proud of.  What people don't like is to help someone and then that person dishonors that by continuing in sin.  Maybe the church you've been going to will give some help.  People won't help if you don't ask because they won't know.  Make it clear to yourself and them, that the help is temporary until you get going the right way.

Once you are out, you need work.  Probably a couple of part-time jobs.  Keep looking for full-time.  It wasn't clear if you finished university before, if you didn't.  I would seriously consider going back, living in the dorm and working your way through.  If you did, I hope you can find better than part-time work.

You may need some help from Social Services for awhile.  This is exactly what they are for.  Temporary help til you get going so you can contribute to society.

Find a good church.  It would be difficult to continue where D and the others are, and I would not recommend it.  Maybe it will be back where you came from, maybe somewhere else, you will find it.

Study the Bible.  Use it as your guide.

I will pray for you, God will bless your faith.

Marv