Im yet to have a single individual announce to me that he is a prophet and it turned out to be true. And in my pentecostal background  is not an unusual occurance.

I would go for the salt when anyone calls himself a prophet.

Take care

Hitch

You think hes dead? On the other hand do you think Jacob is alive?

H

It has long been a mainstay of DF thought that the 'unconditional' nature of Abe's covenant with God regarding the Land is the primary reason to extend land
 claims to modern Israel.

With that in mind:

Why is Esau excluded?

Take care

Hitch

Well... thats good advise.

Hitch

 

           


 

                               Recalling that the Jews used the scripture against the Lord and
                               the church lets look at another vile action. The epitome of
                               idolatry/adultery. They falsely accused our Lord, but fulfilling the
                               Word in Matt.23;35 they commit the final act of national
                               apostasy,  the eternal shame of the once holy nation and city,
                               led by no less than the chief priest...

                               John 19:15 15 But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with
                               Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your
                               King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but
                               Caesar!" (NKJ)

                               Knowing this beforehand we see Jesus weeping over the city
                               (Matt 23;37)The Judge of Israel knows that there is no appeal, no
                               more hope for the city, terrible judgement will come.

                               Ok so far but so what?

                               This treatment of our Lord is prophetic in that the same
                               argument was used against the church by the Jews. The False
                               Prophet has denied the true faith and ran after foreign gods.
                               Namely Caesar. In filthy apostasy they continued the practice of
                               choosing the god of State,Ceaser, over the God of Abe. Pursuing
                               and killing church leaders and organizing economic sanctions
                               against all who would defiantly call on Jesus(acts 20;19,
                               ,,4;1-3,,,5;17,18 acts is full of such references)

                               So the Mark (the frontal) that should have set them apart to God,
                               and helped incur the greatest blessings, become the mark that
                               seals their doom, even as Christ the Deliverer becomes Christ
                               the Wrathful Judge. They had a 'day' in which to choose whom
                               they would serve, they chose poorly and paid dearly.



                               So I reckon the MOB found in the Revelation was the once
                               glorious Word of God, so abused as to become the device for the
                               regicide and thus becoming a witness as the blood of Abel. But
                               whether the frontal was actually the mark or not makes no
                               difference.

                               Whether a literal mark existed or not makes no difference. The
                               point is; at that particular time in history the last generation of
                               Old Covenant Jews murdered the Great King's Son, and His
                               servants as well. And that not being evil enough they did their
                               best to see that all in Israel had to make the same choice...

                               And some took the Mark, we will not see them. Some were
                               faithful to the end and we are blessed by their bravery and faith
                               today as they are the foundation of the church.



Apologies for the editing and if you have been bored by this previously.

take care

Hitch

The first ‘mark’ I know of is from Gen. 3; 19, and it
                       Interesting just where its found,,, on the forehead. The
                       'Mark of the Beast' (MOB) though, is a counterfeit of
                       the marks found in Duet, 6; 8 and Ex. 28;36. The first
                       is a simple idea of a sort of bracelet with the
                       Commandments written in the design and worn on
                       the  right wrist. There is also mention of the 'frontal'
                       the little box you may have seen modern Jews wearing
                       , on their foreheads in photos from the 'Wailing Wall'.
                       In Exodus we see the High Priest with golden
                       letters,again across the forehead, HOLY TO THE
                       LORD.


                       Reading the Sermon on the Mount should leave us
                       with little left to question. The real value of the seal is
                       contained in the thoughts and intents of heart of the
                       individual. Remember Jesus told the viperous brood
                       "You search the scriptures daily." To no avail. But
                       this seal would be an outward show of the devotion of
                       a devout believer. A proclamation of God's greatness
                       and protective will. It is the lawyer class (Pharisees) that
                       ineveitibly elevates the seal over the intent. Well that
                       class was the religious elite in Jesus day and we are all
                       well aware of their various problems. They ,no doubt
                       were sure to wear the frontal and make every
                       outward show. The first century audience of the
Revelation was well aquainted with the seal of God, as
                       described above, and thus the allusion to a sorry
                       counterfeit of the same by the enemy wouldn’t seem
                       strange at all. And as Christ is the Stumbling Block to
                       unbelievers so becomes the frontal of scripture to
                       apostate Jews bent on persecuting our Lord through
                       His church. The very thing which sets apart the
                       believer,the Word, becomes a witness against the
                       Scribe.

                         I wonder if there has ever been and end time sermon
                       on Christian TV or radio concerned with the 'Mark of
                       the Believer". In contrast practically every day one of
                       the 'gang' has a new reason to extol the anti-Christ
                       (Anti-Christ does not appear in any text) But what’s
                       really cute is that the biblical 'Mark of the Beast' is
                       attributed  to the anti-Christ. (These terms appear in
                       entirely  different books of the bible.) And always in the
                       name of literalism! Go figure...

Well that way Dan's 'time of the end' makes sense.  Time of the end of the old system, specifically the daily animal sacrifices, one of the very few antediluvian traditions that survived untl Jesus time.

Perf Ollie.


Take care

Hitch

I read somewhere that the Ashkenazi Jews are descended from a group of people in what is now southern Russia that converted to Judaism in the 9th century or so. They speak Yiddish, which is a Germanic language, and the claim is that they are unrelated to the Israelites. Whether this is true or not I don't know. I brought it up on another forum and all hell broke loose!

Thanx Knox I couldnt remember the word Ashkenazi

Oddly enough I had exactly the opposite reaction.  I was told by a strongly pro-Israel dispensationalist that this was common knowledge and had no bearing whatsover eschatologically speaking.

My piont here is that I would think modern science could prove this one way or another. And let the chips fall where they may.

I know the mormons have claimed that American Indians are the Ten Lost Tribes, but I dounbt anyone ever took it seriously enough to setle it through DNA.

take care

Hitch

[Semitic]

Semitic: 1) Of, or relating to the Semites, esp. the Jews. 2) Of or relating to the languages of the family including Hebrew and Arabic.

Who are these 'many' that are doing the arguing, what evidence if any do they have for this argument and what is the motivation behind it?

I've heard this ever since I can remember and never paid much attention.

I do know the basic premise. :  The people we normally recognize as 'jews'  by cultural factors and appearence are jews by conversion rather than blood. Originating in Eastern Europe .

Of course I would have no idea wrt anyone's motivations.

The purpose here is not to examine whether the idea itself is valid, but to examine the 'what if'. especially as to how this could,or not, relate to eschatology.

Take care


Hitch

[The world is inspired to write love songs and script about his character, performed in movie and on stage. He wants to tell us his real name. He wants to throw off his cape and shout “I am Yours Truly.” Soon and very soon he will.]

The world is inspired to write love songs and script about his character, performed in movie and on stage. He wants to tell us his real name.  He wants to throw off his cape and shout “I am Yours Truly.”  Soon and very soon he will.



The above in not a reference to the Second Advent

If women ran the world, our bathrooms would always be clean and we'd always have hot dinners.

As any previous or current janitor would tell you, women's bathrooms are ALWAYS the worst.

And all the people said AMEN!

[Let both grow together until the harvest]

Coming to maturity?  No silly its the Kingdom of God that is coming to maturity. And that because the one you grant so much power to was thrown out of power at the cross.

First of all, please don't call me silly or use any other negative adjectives when referring to me.  It comes off very superior, and frankly, you have not earned that yet, although I find your questions very clever and deeply probing .
Here's your answer on maturity:
Matt 13:26-30
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
the above parable of Jesus is a reflection of the growing process of the believers and non-believers, therefore there is a maturing process of both.  To address the hierarchy of rulership both good and bad additional scriptures follow:

Is it reasonable to say since God is the rewarder of those who seek him and cuttsoff the wicked and blesses the righteous that even though evil will be present the spiritual and cultural effects of the work of the cross will prevail in history?The work of the crfoss is iether greater or lesser than the fall of Adam...What do you say?

Eph 6:12,13
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

And as during the conquest, the battle was the Lord's and essentially already won. Since our battle is historical ,as was Christ's while in the flesh, our victory is historical as well. The simple fact that God has called us to battle should be enough for us to understand who the victor will be, God cannot fail.

------->>>Hitch writes:
You addressed your 'soon and very soon' but I coulndt grasp what you were trying to say. How a bout a simple down to earth  time frame?

I will put a time frame if I get a divine visit from Gabriel. Of course I don't have a time frame, but Paul said this:
1 Thes 5:1-6
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. edited for space .

Just as the surrounding natural elements change drastically with the four seasons, which narrow the months into 4 separate and short spans of forward moving time, and they are very clearly recognized, so are the times we live in when ALL the scripture is pieced together.  Jesus, himself, NEVER clear gave a date of a time of his death or resurrection, nor the day of Pentecost's gather in which 120 (including Mary, Jesus' mother) were all filled with the Holy Ghost.  One had to gather the facts together.  It is this gathering of scripture that I originally was hoping to discuss when I started this subject on the coming World ruler.

Undefined terms are meaningless. You used 'soon and very soon' to convey some idea. What was that idea in real terms ?

------------>>>Hitch writes
Also I asked why you think the scripture tell you the antichrist boogey-man is alive today.  Nothing in your answer so far supports the notion than any specific person is alive today and up to  the specific mischief.

Someone has been trying to control others, individual;s and nations  and this is common among fallen men, nothing special to the current generation.

So there remains two basic questions.

Why do you personalize 'antichrist' when the Scriptures do not.

In fact the scriptures DO personalize him:
2 Thes 2:3-5
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

This describes every Roman Emporer as well as many other despots of the biblical era

------------->>Again Hitch
And as above;

What Scripture narrows the ages down to this generation? (as you have previously stated this person is living today,,,as opposed ot antichristian spiritual adversaries)

Again piecing together old and new testament information, we see the dispersing and regathering of the Jews.  In 1948, Israel was declared a state, and not since 605BC were they in control of that territory, not even in the days of Jesus. Rome was in control then.  This small piece of the prophetic pie is one of few reasons why Hitler could not have been the world ruler, although he implemented many of the characteristics.

What prophecy involes the events of 1948? There has been no prophecy of return to the land since the Babylonian captivity. And in this case repentence in the land of capitivty was required before restoration.



IKing 8:47-48
47   Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48   And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
(KJV)


This pattern is also used by Jery:

Jer 29:12-14
12   Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13   And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14   And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
(KJV)


These things have long since happened ,but the pattern is clear. Repentance before restoration.
Modern Israel is not repentant. And as an antichristian state has no claims whatever to God's blessings.

The peace process, Iraq war, and more to come are all implements of the rise to power of the person, that is alive today.[/color]

Well what Scripture says this? What Scripture mentions a realitively small war to take place in Iraq thousands of years  future ,from the point of the prophecy?

This looks so familiar.

 If we read of war the prophecy mongers come out shouting the end is near.. and they never define near ...

If we read of peace the prophecy mongers come out shouting the end is near...

Its not as though you have made some orginal claim.This same thing has been said  since the earlisest days of the church and in every case the 'generation' has been moved further into the future. As was the case for LaHaye when he claimed the terminal generation saw WWI, and we all know Hal's recent meanderings, altering his 'time guide' by as many years as needed. and gee ,,would it be fair to even mention Jack the Impe?,,,,

Am I supposed to be the original on prophecy?

You brought this on yourself in your 'soon and very soon' claim. The implication is that you understand above any one who disagreees the will of God wrt the realatively near future, its up to you to support such a claim

Don't think so. I am NOT a follower of Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe or any of these guys, though I have read many of their books, and others, including Marvin Rosenthal, Grant Jeffries (sp).  I have formed my own take on this subject with much constant study for years, much prayer, and patience waiting for the Lord to confirm, in the witness of two or more, for my conclusions.  I am committed to follow Jesus.

With only what is on this thread its easy enough to see your conclusions are a rehash of Walvoord's expectations expressed in Armageddon Oil and the Middle East Crisisin 1974. Which failed to come to pass, not once but twice with the 1990 revision and reprint.( I m not saying you took your ideas from that work, but obviously you have heard and read enough of a similar nature and have been influenced by them) The only problem being that in every case in all history, short term expectations, which yours certainly is, based on futuristic outlooks have been proven wrong. And a common factor is the 'it couldnt have been then it must be now'...fill in the blank reasoning.

Thanks
sunodino - travailing for the lost[/color]

Take care

Hitch

[Scriptures show the spirit of antichrist has been in the world since we entered into the "last days" and is coming to maturity:]

Scriptures show the spirit of antichrist has been in the world since we entered into the "last days" and is coming to maturity:


Coming to maturity?  No silly its the Kingdom of God that is coming to maturity. And that because the one you grant so much power to was thrown out of power at the cross.

You addressed your 'soon and very soon' but I coulndt grasp what you were trying to say. How a bout a simple down to earth  time frame?

Also I asked why you think the scripture tell you the antichrist boogey-man is alive today.  Nothing in your answer so far supports the notion than any specific person is alive today and up to  the specific mischief.

Someone has been trying to control others, individual;s and nations  and this is common among fallen men, nothing special to the current generation.

So there remains two basic questions.

Why do you personalize 'antichrist' when the Scriptures do not.


And as above;

What Scripture narrows the ages down to this generation? (as you have previously stated this person is living today,,,as opposed ot antichristian spiritual adversaries)


Its not as though you have made some orginal claim.This same thing has been said  since the earlisest days of the church and in every case the 'generation' has been moved further into the future. As was the case for LaHaye when he claimed the terminal generation saw WWI, and we all know Hal's recent meanderings, altering his 'time guide' by as many years as needed. and gee ,,would it be fair to even mention Jack the Impe?,,,,

Take care

Hitch

According to scripture GOD is the GOD of earth.

Reba, I think Dino got you on this one.  Think about when Jesus was tempted in the desert.  The devil said (paraphrased), "If you bow to me, I will give you everything that you see."

Now, Jesus did not say, "You can't give it to me!  It's not yours!"  You know why he didn't say that?  Because he knew that the earth was Satan's.  It was forfeited to him in the garden.  He is even referred to as "the ruler of the world" (see John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11).  BTW, those are quotes of Jesus.

Quotes of Jesus....


John 12:31-33
31   Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32   And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33   This he said, signifying what death he should die.
(KJV)


Seems you have forgotten the value of the work of the cross.

take care

H