Silver Surfer,

You didn't list the Commandments of Jesus Christ, and I didn't think that you would or could. I'll list them for you with Scripture, Chapter, and Verse in a message I will post later today.

Your overall problem appears to be works and the law, Israel confused with the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and denial of the purpose and meaning of the CROSS.

I have as much trouble with the Law as Paul did:
"Do we make void the law through faith ?"
GOD FORBID"
"Yea, we (Christians) establish the Law", (Romans 3:31).

It is the UNconverted person who ignores or rejects the Law of God:
"Because the carnal mind (UNconverted) mind is emnity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be", (Romans 8:7).

I plan to treat you like a Brother in Christ and help you with the TRUTH. In the meantime, I'll repost a post for your thought and study while you are waiting.

Tom

Jesus said: "I pray, not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil", (John 17:15).
Jesus told his followers, "In the world you shall have tribulation", (John 16:33).


Many people use these verses to argue that the Church must go through tribulation.  If you read farther down in Jesus prayer he says....

Joh 17:24  Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Note:  Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

They had work to do before they would go to the fathers house, just like Jesus did.  So this verse does not refute a rapture.

Act 14:22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Much tribulation.  Daily life struggles, persecutions etc.  Not tribulation such as the world has never seen nor ever will.

OK, some people might respond by saying: Yes, but those verses are talking about tribulation....not 'the' tribulation.
Really ?
If the majority of Bible texts (tribulation) refer to what the believers go thru...why would God's word suddenly shift by teaching that, 'the' tribulation is something believers will not go thru ?
Notice what it says in Revelation 20:4,5.....
"..and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ and the word of God ...."are they Christians ?

Silver Surfer:
I would appreciate a response to my post #23 above. Would appreciate an answer to my question on the later portion.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord?

If you can show me from scripture where God (Jesus Christ) changed the ',7th day' Sabbath to an 24/7 deal...then I might believe what you are implying....which would make the 4th commandment null and void.

Silver Surfer Said:

Yes, Because Jesus is the creator of this world and the universe.
And, he is the re-creator of men, giving them the born-again experince to become new creatures in Christ, enabling them to living a sinless lifestyle, in preparation for the Kingdom of heaven.

Well, I would say that you did fair on the important part of the test. Inquiring minds will wish to know if you are one of those people who think they live in perfection without sin.

I believe Jesus Christ when he said, 'go and sin no more', (John 5:14....8:11).
I believe the Bible, when it says:
"Whosoever is born of God ...does not...commit sin", (1 John 3:9).
I believe the Bible when it says: "These are redeemed from among men...being the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.....for they are without fault, before the throne of God", (Revelation 14:4,5).

If so, this would represent another part of the Holy Bible that you either ignore, disbelieve, or are confused with beyond measure. You would also be completely unique and be Jesus Christ, the ONLY ONE who ever walked this earth in sinless perfection.

I never said I was sinless.....the Bible (IF...you believe it) says, that it is possible.
And, God points out a people who have done it, thru the power of Jesus Christ.

UM?? - I'm positive that you are NOT Jesus Christ. You deny the catching up (RAPTURE) of HIS CHURCH, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

No, I believe in the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ (the word, Adventist, means...belief in the 2nd coming)

You also appear to be TRYING?? to live under the law,

"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).
QUESTION: Are 'saints' ...Christians ?
And, the Bible says, that they are keeping God's commanbdments.
Is it because of what Jesus Christ said ?
"IF..you love me, kep my commandments", (John 14:15).

ignoring the purpose and GIFT of Jesus Christ on the CROSS.

Is the purpose of Jesus Christ, to keep right on committing sinful practices ?
Had you understood what Romans 10:4 said:
"For Christ is the 'end' of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth".
Look up what the word 'end', means in Greek !
 

[Revelation 3:10]

One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.
"Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth."

Jesus said: "I pray, not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil", (John 17:15).
Jesus told his followers, "In the world you shall have tribulation", (John 16:33).
Paul told his early Christian converts...."..we must thru many tribulations enter the Kingdom of God", (Acts 14:22).

This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia.  The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the "great tribulation, Matthew 24:21 such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be".

And Christians ..are going thru it as Jesus said in John 17:15.

There are many verses in the Bible that describe the rapture.  Christians in the first century church were so driven by the coming of their Lord and savior in the end-times that they shared their faith everywhere.  Paul wrote to the Thessalonian church in I Thessalonians 1:6-10
And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe.  For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place.  Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything.  For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and  true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Again....John 17:15..."I pray, not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, that that thou shouldest keep them from the evil".

This belief in being taken up to meet Christ is the essence of hope.  A hope that Satan will fight and challenge with all of his might.

That's why Satan invented the 'Secret Rapture' theory....to make people believe that they might have a 2nd chance.

We also read the following in I Thessalonians 4:16-18
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up int he air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore encourage each other with these words."

'dead raised first'....This being the 1st resurrection...which occurs 'after' the Mark of the Beast scenerio,(Revelation 20:4,5).

The Lord will shout a loud command as he descends from heaven, and we will hear the voice of the archangel, perhaps to lead Israel during the seven years of tribulation as he did in the Old Testament.  It should be an encouragement to all of us in these times of lust, greed, corruption, self-centeredness and resistance to all things that are of God.

remembering that the dead in Christ rise first....on the 'LAST DAY' (of the world), (John 6:40,44,54......John 11:24)

I Corinthians 15:51-53 "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.  For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

And the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming, (2 Thessaloninans 2:.
 

 Martha believed Jesus when he challenged her to understand the coming resurrection of the dead.  She responded to Jesus, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day."

The last day...of the world, (John 6:40,44,54).

When the rapture does occur, billions of people will be left behind full of surprise and shock at the disappearances of their loved ones, friends, and acquaintances.

Wrong....."As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the day of the coming of the son of man", (Matthew 24:37-42).
One group wassaved...the other group was destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Who knows what explanation the Antichrist will use to explain away the disappearances of millions of believers.  But, one thing is for certain, with the main obstacle to his plan for the world removed, the way will be clear for the Antichrist to implement his evil plan for the world as is prophesied in the Bible.  With the followers of Christ gone, few would stand in the way of a world religion that deifies man, and a world government that criminalizes belief in God.

[ONLY WAY!]

Silver Surfer,

You might agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY for Salvation. I really don't know about you, but I'm 100% certain that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY!

What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? Please list them.

Exodus  20:3   Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  
  20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:  
  20:5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;  
  20:6   And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.  
  20:7   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
 
  20:8   Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.  
  20:9   Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:  
  20:10   But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:  
  20:11   For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
  20:12   Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.  
  20:13   Thou shalt not kill.  
  20:14   Thou shalt not commit adultery.  
  20:15   Thou shalt not steal.  
  20:16   Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.  
  20:17   Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's
  Duet.5:22   These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: ....and he added no more....... And, he wrote them in two tables of stone..."

QUESTION: was Christ there on Mt. Sinai ?
ANSWER:  1 Corithians 10:1   Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  
  10:2   And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  
  10:3   And did all eat the same spiritual meat;  
  10:4   And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  

The sabbath rest is in Christ and it is 24/7. It has nothing to do with protestant or catholic, but Christian.

ollie

Yes, the Sabbath is the test of loyalty to God.
 http://home.earthlink.net/~se7en_7/

There is no secret return of Jesus Christ......there is no 7 year Tribulation period, either.

I am quoting this so you can't change your post later.

I think you need to study your Bible. With this statement, you have just admitted you are trying to cause trouble.
The Bible says it, I believe it.

Acts 1:9   And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  
  1:10   And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;  
  1:11   Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven".
 
QUESTION: Did they see him go up into the cloud ?
   The Bible verse says.....that they saw him go....and the verses says that Jesus will return the same way....visibly.


Now,
 1 Thessalonians  4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
  4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

QUESTION: Does it seem to you that Jesus comes again secretly, from these verses ?


Again:
  24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  
  24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

QUESTION: 'ALL' ....the tribes of the earth shall mourn?
   Who doesn't see Christ returning from these Bible verses ?

 Yes, I am causing trouble ....for Satan, who promotes false doctrines, throughout the Christian world.

I will not stand by idly, while Satan promotes his ideas.

Silver Surfer,

Here's a Bible Test for you:

Is Jesus Christ Almighty God?

Easy question (Yes, No, Why?).

Tom

Yes, Because Jesus is the creator of this world and the universe.
And, he is the re-creator of men, giving them the born-again experince to become new creatures in Christ, enabling them to living a sinless lifestyle, in preparation for the Kingdom of heaven.

I'm beginning to think that fear, is the one single most contributing factor, behind the Rapture theory.

Christ warned people 4 times about the 2nd coming of Christ, (Matthew 24.....'Be Not Deceived')...and yet the Christian world acts as though they never read a single word he said.

No one can base their theory of the secret rapture on what the Bible teaches, because....it is not there !

There is no secret return of Jesus Christ......there is no 7 year Tribulation period, either.

Silver Surfer Said:

I'll give you $100 if you can show one verse from the Bible, about any 7 year tribulation.

Read the threads already on the forum and send your donation to Christians Unite. In fact, send a $100 donation for each and every Bible Scripture.

Tom

It must be remembered that the majority are always wrong regarding religious matters, (Matthew 7:13,14, 21-23)

Silver Surfer,

I will simply be nice and say that you should study your Bible once in a while. I doubt you will find much interest in the Sabbath argument here. We've had it so many times that it is nauseating. I rest in Jesus 24/7, and you can too. Use the search function for "Sabbath", and you will have all the material you can stand to study. Those who love to study the Holy Bible do so without the edicts and instructions of Prophetess Elen G. White.

Reference the tribulation period, you can do a similar search on the forum and find a host of Bible Scriptures that most definitely address a 7 year tribulation period. They are fairly difficult portions of Scripture, and they really aren't very appropriate for beginners or babes. Those who love to study the Holy Bible do so without the edicts and instructions of Prophetess Elen G. White.

If you are really interested in these topics, study the mass of information already on the forum.

Tom

I'll give you $100 if you can show one verse from the Bible, about any 7 year tribulation.

Ex 20:8-10

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
KJV


  Silver do you labour 6 days? And in those 6 days you do ALL thy work, nothing is left undone correct?

What I don't get done, I leave til Sunday or Monday.

Surly you would never cause a 'stranger' to labour... Like the guy who works so the computers can be on line or the sanatation guy when you use water. or the folks at the electric company no lights, hair driers etc. on in your home from sundown to Friday to sundown Saturday?

Most people don't work the weekends anyway.

I'm a Christian, and I love the Lord, so....I do as he asks me, as Jesus said:
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).


The true Christian can always pass the Bible test:
""To the Law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them", (Isaiah 8:20).


God identifies his people:
"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus ", (Revelation 14:12).
 

I believe he's one of the two witnesses from Revelation.

Bronzesnake

I agree BRNZ, I believe Moses is the other witness.

Nah.  Gotta be Enoch.  "It's appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment."  Neither Elijah nor Enoch died...yet.  Speculation, but a worthy one I think.

The 2 witnesses are: The Law and the testimony.
"To the Law and to the tesimony, is they speak not accirduing to this word, it is because thee is no light in them", (Isaiah 8:20).

This Bible verse is the test ...whereby every pastor, every prophet, every person is tested as to who has the truth of God.

Revelation 12:17 ...tells us that Satan goes to make ...WAR...against those who keep the commandments of God, and have the tesimony...of Jesus Christ.

We are saved by faith and rewarded according to our works.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Yes, Faith is believing in what God says.
It takes faith, to believe God, when he says: "REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.."

There is no faith in Sunday worship services, as God's day...because there is nowhere God ever said it.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Yes, after the Judgment, (Revelation 22:11,12)

Bronzesnake