Tom -

it (the Sabbath) was expanded to 24/7

If this is the case, then the verse I quoted above doesn't make sense. It is obvious that Jesus is referring to one specific day. He was speaking to His disciples, who were Israelites, and knew that He speaking about the 7th day Sabbath.

~ Chesed

[Sabbath]

Question:

Why would Jesus say this: Mt 24:20 - "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath."
Why would it matter if the Sabbath would be done away with?

[the one who works]

Bronzesnake –

Okay, here it goes...

The "Jews" I am refering to, are the Old Testament Jews my friend. How could they be saved through the blood of Jesus, before He came? Do you believe those O.T. Jews are saved? If so, how are they saved? They were under a different dispensational period, where they had to obey God's Law.

I know that you don’t believe that salvation can be earned by one’s works – you and I agree there. But I don’t believe anyone has ever been saved by works.  Paul refuting the idea that salvation is/was by works in Romans 4 uses the First Testament (OT) to back him up:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered" Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised…”

Galatians 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

So obviously the law didn’t have anything thing to do with Abraham’s salvation, he was saved by his faith, even before the Messiah came and died for us. Abraham’s obedience to God’s Law came after he was declared righteous by faith.

Eph 2:19, used metaphorically in a spiritual sense. 2:19, used metaphorically in a spiritual sense.

Yes it is in a spiritual sense, exactly!

I doubt very seriously that merely being joined to a country (Israel) is sufficient to make anyone eligible for salvation.

It’s not about being eligible for salvation, but it is what salvation means. Israel is not just a country but a people, God’s chosen people. God calls Israel His bride. The people Israel are the ones He chose to represent Him to the world, the ones He chose to dwell in their midst, the ones He addressed His promises to. We gentiles have become part of His people by adoption through the blood of Messiah, we share those promises, we choose to represent God to the world, He does and He will dwell in our midst.  When gentiles came to faith, we joined Israel.

Romans 9:6  But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Gal. 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God

I strongly disagree with you on this point my friend. The Jews were never under that authority - at least they weren't supposed to be.

How can you say the Jews of the First Testament weren’t supposed to be under the authority of the Sanhedrin and the Levitical priests? God commanded them to submit to the authority of the Sanhedrin and the Priest in His Torah:

Deuteronomy 17:9-12 "So you shall come to the Levitical priest or the judge who is {in office} in those days, and you shall inquire {of them} and they will declare to you the verdict in the case. "You shall do according to the terms of the verdict which they declare to you from that place which the LORD chooses; and you shall be careful to observe according to all that they teach you. "According to the terms of the law which they teach you, and according to the verdict which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. 12 "The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the LORD your God, nor to the judge, that man shall die; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel.”

Even Jesus tells his disciples to submit to the authority of the Pharisees:

Matt 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, F124 that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

It seems to me that you are minimizing the dispensational age after Jesus arrived.

No, not at all. I want to understand what Jesus did in His life, death and resurrection with the entire scripture in mind. I think when we start compartmentalizing scripture into dispensations (of time) we loose the context of the gospels and the apostolic writings. Paul says all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).

How do you explain Rev.13:8 that says the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?  

Going back to Matt. 5:17-18, I’m still not sure how your understanding of this passage (we both agreed as to how it should be interpreted) can be reconciled with your dispensationalist views. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, that not one Jot or Tittle from the Law, until Heaven and Earth pass away. But correct me if I’m wrong, you believe that with Jesus’ death, and when He said, “It is finished” that the dispensation of Law ended. If this is true, why did Jesus say what He said in Matt 5?

I don’t believe Jesus did away with the Law by His death. Yet I know that by saying this one might misunderstand what I believe about salvation, so I want to make it clear: I don’t believe anyone can earn their salvation by works or by keeping the Torah. I don’t believe anyone can be saved without believing in Jesus. I know that we both agree here. This is the role I think the works of Torah plays in the scheme of salvation:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

***

Well bronzesnake, the ball is now in your court. It is nice discussing this topic with you. Iron sharpens iron you know...

Take care,
Chesed

[you were at that time separate from Messiah, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.]

Bronzesnake -

However, there is a huge difference in the way God deals with sin after Jesus came than there was prior to His coming.

In what way do you think God deals with sin differently now that Jesus has come than before?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"no man" includes the Jews my friend.

I absolutely agree with you here. No one is saved apart from Jesus the Messiah - even the Jewish people.

Do you believe that the Jews can be washed clean and saved through the daily sacrifice of animals?

No, but I don't believe that Jews were ever saved through sacrifice. If you are saying they were saved by sacrificing, then you must be saying that there is or was more than one way of salvation. I believe there has always been only one way of salvation: by grace through faith.

Now let me assert that there is only one people of God- Israel.
I will attempt to support this first, then I'll get back to the dispensation thing-

Eph. 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Messiah, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Messiah Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah.

Note in the above passage, that being excluded from the commonwealth of Israel (national term) made us strangers to the covenants, which left us without hope.  There are no covenants in the Bible made with any entity other than Israel.  It is clear that without being joined to Israel, one has no way to be saved, because that is who the Messiah is sent to save.  Where does that leave gentiles (like myself)?  Check out what Paul says a little further down in Eph.

Eph. 2:18 - 22
18 for through Him (Messiah) we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Messiah Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Fellow Citizen is a national/political term, and what Paul is stating here is that we gentiles are saved because we are now part of Israel through the Messiah.  Note in the Isaiah passage below, that the Messiah is a covenant to the gentiles-

Isa. 42 6:- 9
6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. 8 " I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. 9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim {them} to you."

The salvation of the gentiles is the mystery of the gospel.  Part of that mystery is why God would blind his people Israel, but the purpose was to bring us (gentiles) into the body.  The term dispensation is being used as if it is a period of time, but that is not what it means exactly.  It has more to do with whose authority we are under.  The only change in dispensation was that Israel had a change in management.  Up to the time of Messiah, the sanhedrin and the priesthood had authority over Israel.  Once Messiah resurrected, and ascended, he received the dispensation of Israel (authority/administration over Israel).

Now with that in mind, read the passage in Eph. that Ollie quoted again (in full)-

Eph. 1:5 -
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Messiah to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Messiah, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Messiah would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The above verses also corresponds to Isaiah-

Isaiah 49:1-6
1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. 2 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, " You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory." 4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain, I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity; Yet surely the justice {due} to Me is with the LORD, And My reward with My God." 5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

I find that this truth bears itself out in the story of Joseph, in that he like the Messiah is dispised by his brothers, taken away (like death, especially where Jacob is conserned) and raised in power to the right hand of pharoh.  When his brothers see him again, they do not recognize him (because he looks like a gentile), but he reveals himself to them.  This is how I think the blinding of Israel occured, after Messiah was dispised, he was raised in power, and became great in the gentile world.  He also became un-identifiable to his brothers (he couldn't be our Messiah, he's a gentile!!).  But wait, there's more-
Joseph had two sons: Ephraim, and Manneseh.  These were born of a gentile mother, so they can't be considered part of Israel, right?  Wrong- they were because Jacob adopted them as his sons, making them brothers to the 12.  This is a perfect picture of how the gentiles would come into Israel, and in the blessing Jacob gives them, he states that Ephraim would become a multitude of gentiles (nations)!

Now back to dispensationalism- well there is not much more to say about it since above I already excluded the popular view.  I would like to say however that I know that this a large bite to chew, since if what I am saying is correct, it means there are some major flaws in our mainstram theology, and every block of a theological system is built on other blocks, so when proposing a paradigm shift in understanding, you basically have to rebuild the whole building from the scriptures up...

Bronzesnake -

I don't see how Matt. 5:17-18 supports dispensationalism. In fact, I would use those verses to refute dispensationalism.

It all hinges upon how one defines the word fulfill in this context. The greek word used in 17, plerosai, means literally to fill; the word fulfilled in verse 18 is actually a different Greek word. Some possible meanings for fulfill in 17 could be: "to accomplish, to carry into effect, bring to realisation, to perform." Here is how the verse would read with fulfill being understood this way: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to accomplish, to carry into effect, bring to realisation, to perform." It makes perfect sense.

Some interpret the word fulfill in Matt. 5:17 as "to put an end to." Here is what verse 17 would read according to this understanding: " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to put an end to (the law)." This sounds contradictory.

The same Greek word for fulfill used in Matt. 5:17, is also used in Matt. 3:15 (the baptism of Jesus) "But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."

This verse is evidence that the first interpretation I gave of the word fulfill for Matt. 5:17 is the correct one. To believe the contrary, would lead one to come to the same conclusions as 5:17 applied to 3:15 would mean that Jesus did away with baptism by becoming baptised, or that He "put an end to righteousness." Of course we know this is not true. I think we can all agree this is correct way to understand 3:15: "for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill (accomplish, to carry into effect, bring to realisation, to perform) all righteousness."

The same Greek word used in Matt. 5:17, Matt. 3:15 is also used in the Gospels when Jesus fulfills a Prophecy about Him in the Prophets: Matt. "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet..."

I don't have time now to discuss verse 5:18 and the different Greek word for fulfill, but I can in a future post if you'd like to read what I have to say about that.

~ Chesed

I went to the Picture People to get a portrait done of my baby and my almost 5 year old son. My son told the photographer, "We know God but YOU don't." I was laughing so hard that it was difficult to explain to him that he shouldn't assume someone doesn't know God.