Ben5, yes i do. How about you, and Christopher, Tibby, ibea,
Nickolai, Michael?

Why shouldn't i call him holy? If it is God that makes him holy,
he is still holy is he not? As stated before its all Gods doings.
   Look up holy in the dictionary again please.

Wrong again Heidi, we give God all the credit for making the Pope the loveable, good, kindhearted, little Holy Father he is!
He would be the first to give God credit too. You really should
read his writings, very interesting good stuff.

How can God NOT do anything intentionally, He is after all God.
The leader of our church is Christ also, remember the church is not just here on earth, the Pope is our spiritual leader here
on earth who is governed by the Holy Spirit, that does not diminish Christ in anyway. Do we trust the Popes words and Catholic doctrine? Well yes we do, after all they are led by
the Holy Spirit, and we don't really believe that God would
leave us poor sinners to our own demise and folly. Why do you think there are teachers in schools, if we just handed books to the kids and say figure this out, we'd be in world of hurt, much like what happens when people set themselves
up as their own infallible sorce of Biblical knowledge. Christ's
word are what Catholic doctrine is all about, contrary to what you might think and claim. Can you imagine what would happen to a country if they had no guidance, no rules, no laws, and no one to oversee the whole thing? Chaos comes to mind, something like what we see in protestant circles.

WE do know EXACTLY what it means, you don't, does that mean you don't have the Holy Spirit in you. It is NOT just the Catholics who believe this, all the early churches do. So are you telling us that the Holy Spirit left for 1800 years and now
has just come forth again in the last 200 years or so, and givin
all you 'true Christians' all knowledge and understanding and
your going to correct us poor misled ignorant sinners? You need to take a long hard look at the facts before you go inventing new doctrines, as stated before you REALLY need
to take up studying the early church fathers and Christians,
i'll put more stock in what they say and teach anyday, after all they were around shortly after Christ and were instructed
by the apostles.
    Now who is the one coming up w/ man made doctrines and
rules, now put your predjudices aside, and think it through.
 
 

She's always talking about faith, may'be she doesn't have enough to accept what he really means by it.

Nickolai, i second the motion.
Lets see her get out of this one, it should be real interesting.
There really arn't many scripture passages or much evidence
we can use to defend this one ya know. Heehee,NOT.

Tibby & ebia,
       Not to worry anymore, i've got a phone call into the Pope
He'll be hittin the button to shut their computers down anytime now! He can do that you know. Yea he's got a whole underground army of computer nerds that can do it at a moments notice. That'll show 'em you just wait and see.
                                                 Rich

    Candice,
         Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe the topic is about the title 'father' or 'holy father' , and for which she has been given many responses. Once again ignorance is rearing its ugly head, the Pope does NOT call himself infallible, and would correct any man or woman who worshipped him. He does not put himself between God and man, the only people i see doing that are the misinformed folks that keep claiming he does.For some reason they keep trying to place him there to fit their anti-Catholic agenda. So be it, as long as I know the difference,and all 1,000,000,001 Catholics Know the difference thats fine with me. Oops, i forgot, subtract one
justme's mother-in law is a little confused on how the whole thing works too.
       If your interested to know, the Pope is not infallible,
if he was to say for instance that the Red Sox were going to win the world series, or that it was going to rain cats and dogs, or anything relating to everyday things, its not any different than you or i saying it. If however he is talking from
the chair  of Peter  and it has to be matter of faith and morals
well then yes it is infallible, which is very Biblical, but i'm sure
i will get told otherwise. If you do some checking i'm not sure will find where Pope John Paul II has even made any infallible
statements.It just goes to show that people are once again making statements about what it is THEY think THEY know about the Catholic Church.
         I'm the one being judgemental eh? I have not once said that any of you were not Christian, or the anti-Christ,
just because people try to correct misconceptions and out right lies that are being said, and then asking for said people
to back up their claims. If thats the case than color me judgmental, but i guess that shouldn't matter anyway since
i'm not a ' true born again Christian' as Heidi pointed out.
        As said before you really should try to get your info
from someplace other than Jack Chick tracts, or if your not
getting it from there may'be you should help him write some new material, i hear he's looking for a few good writers.
       Obviously this whole debate is going nowhere so i
wish you peace and happiness and hope you will alwys stay
so committed to loving the Lord.
                                                Peace in Christ,
                                                           Rich

You are right i don't know what you've studied, but If you used the same approch to studying the catechism as you apparently do the Bible i can can see how your having problems. Jesus all but ignored his mother eh? On what do you base this conclusion? Do you honestly think everything that happened in Jesus life is written in the Bible? I'm pretty sure that even the Bible says otherwise. You may need to break out that old dictionary on the word good also you seem
have a misunderstanding on that as well. One more question for you, what did the first Christians use for a Bible since it wasn't compiled as we know until several hundered after Christs death? Do you think that they may have used Sacred Tradition, word of mouth and so on? Or is that anouther one of those bizzare Catholic inventions? No need to answer i'm pretty sure i know your response to that.

               Justme, thats a pretty broad assumption that most Catholics are not well educated in the Bible.I've met more than my share of evangelical, fundamentalist, mainline protestant, and any number of the other so called 'word church' members who don't have a clue either.  Obviously if reading scripture and having it be simlpe to understand were the case,there wouldn't be 20,000-30,000 different sects all
with a different take on things now would there? I'm sure that the churches you and Heidi attend have the full truth above all others and are the fast lane to Heaven, or until something pops up that doesn't fit your way of thinking, and then you can always go church shopping for another that better fits what YOU want to hear.
                   
 Heidi, while you have the dicionary out look up venerate, and worship just so you know the difference, you seem to have trouble telling the differences between certain words and how
they can be used.

Darn, and i thought we were all perfect! Just kidding. There are bound to be people of every church or religous group who take things to extremes or are ill informed. May'be she should do a little studying of her own on what the Church teaches.

I could point out many verses that will show that the Church is indeed infallible, but you would just spew more worn out anti-Catholic notions. Just as there are many verses that show calling a man 'father' is not going against what the Lord said. It doesn't matter, as Tibby said you will not listen nor take the time to investigate the info given you. There seems to be alot of people here that claim they know what the Catholic Church is, but from their posts they know very little and sadly even less about scripture or the meaning behind what is being taught. It would help if you would at least pick up copy of the catechisim, not to try to convert you mind you, but at least than you could look for yourself what it is that she teaches instead what it is you think she teaches.


Once again would you please look the word holy up in the dictionary,- ' living according to a strict or highly moral religous
or spiritual system, saintly'. Now if i get this right you have just stated Paul was refering to earthly fathers, so you admit that it is alright to call certain people 'father'. Well if thats the case than when we add 'holy' as used in the description above it does nothing to take away from God our HOLY FATHER. Just because you can't tell in which context to use holy, don't assume that everyone has that problem. The context that Mathew is addressing in 23 is the sin of pride among the scribes and Pharisees. In their pride they pointed to themselves rather than to God the Father from whom they received their true fatherhood. As stated by, Tibby i know of no Catholic who thinks the Pope has not sinned, he goes to confesion just like the rest of us do. By the way he does not call himself holy father, we do (but we mean it in the definition used above).

You are the one who keeps saying it it blasphamy to call any one on earth father. It has been pointed out to you that you are not taking the whole context of what Jesus was saying at that particular time and place, and to whom he was addressing. Read ALL of Mathew 23: 1-11, if you have too,read several times. It has also been pointed out that Paul
used the word father on numerous occasions, my guess is thats because he knew what Jesus was talking about and  in what context. Was he a blasphemer? Its not our fault that certain individuals read scripture in a very dangerous way. Thats why the Church has had to use the term heresy, to
correct problems that have came up because of private interpretation, misinterpretaions, personal agendas etc.
As for denying communion to John Kerry, read 1 cor.11:17-34
it can't be any clearer than that, yes we are all sinners, but before we are to receive the Lords Body and Blood we are to examine ourselves, admit that we are sinners and ask for his forgiveness. John Kerry seems to think his pro abortion stance is not a very grave sin, so it would be taking communion in an unworthy manner. So if the actions of the Church upset you on this issue it is you who is not heeding
the Lords words. The Church is following them just as she should in this case. As you say we are accountable for our actions, i'm very secure in my actions and those of the Catholic Church, yes members of the Church have made mistakes, done terrible things, acted in manners unfitting their positions, but as you said we are all sinners and only the good Lord knows what is in each mans heart, everyone will have to answer for their actions. You can't blame the Catholic Church for the actions of her members anymore than you can say that because we're Americans we're all greedy, have no morals, and think that if it feels good do it type people, even though hollywood would like to portray us as so.
 

By what fruit would we recognize you by? It seems that if somebody has a different interpretation of something from you they are blasphemous, lying, idol worshipping, bunch of heathens. It would be nice to know how long you've had the
gift of reading mens hearts, and the even more impressive gift of being able to judge them. I have always been taught that that was Gods place. So in answer to your question yes we surely will be recognized by our fruits. I don't claim to be anything more than a sinner in need of the the gift that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ gave to us by going to the cross.
But i can't sit by and allow people to make such utterly ignorant statements that they apparently know little about without trying to correct their mistaken ideas on what i believe. By the way what is it that makes a true born again Christian? As i asked you before have you been born again the Biblical way? You really do need to do a little homework
on what it is you think the Catholic Church teaches. You really do need to look at the whole context of scripture before you make the claims you do.
                                        ps
                                          i wonder why we were told in
                                         the ten commandments to
                                       " honor our mother and father "
                                           hmm maybe that should be
                                               pops, dad, sir, anything
                                               but 'father'
                                                                       

Heidi,
    The only one i see that is apparently infallible is you. Anyone can take scripture out of context and use it for what they claim to be the truth. The Jehovah's Whitnesses will quote 1 Timothy 2:5 as proof Jesus is not God, but we know thats not true don't we? Just before Mathew 23:9 in Mathew 23:8 it says to call no man teacher (rabbi) yet everyone seems to use that term with no problem. Let me ask you this, do you believe in the real presence in the communion you recieve or is just a symbol? Was He talking symbolically or when He said in John 6 "My flesh is real food:My blood is true
drink,"etc. everyone listening to Him understood he meant them literally many left because they couldn't grasp this teaching, did He go after them and say no I'm only talking symbolically or did he let them go? There are texts in the Bible that say Jesus is man and others that say he is God. We don't throw out either, both are true. Jesus says we are to call no man 'father', yet Christ Himself, St. Stephen,St. James, and St. Paul all refer to men as 'father'. I am guessing
by your statements that you think we believe the Pope is infallible in every thing he says and does? If thats the case you really should study up on what you think it is the Catholic
Church teaches. You have yet to show where what the Church teaches contradicts scripture, seem just seem to get very upset when someone points out that YOUR interpretation may not be correct. As far as personally attacking you, i used the same words you used to ebia. If there is any attacking going on its usually on your end. If you say its not a matter of right and wrong and that your more interested in the truth than in being right i guess i always tought that the truth and right would be the samething, because if your wrong and what you claim is wrong it can't be the truth. I suggest that in your search for the truth you
try not to be so judgmental of others, and please may'be tke the time to read the whole context of something before you
start making accusations. Remember that anyone can take a single verse out of the Bible and make it say what THEY want.
This happens rather frequently anymore just look how many
'word churches' there are out there now, and they each have a little differant understanding of scripture than the one they left before.