FWIW:
Consider the purpose of a yoke...as in used on a brace of oxen (or mules). It is so that they will walk step in step....when one (the lead)  turns right, the other does too...when the lead stops, the other stops. In that context, consider:
Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

When we are yoked with Jesus, He is the leader...via the Holy Spirit and His Word we are led into that which is righteous and pleasing in His sight.

Of course, we can always be like Saul...and kick against the goads. (sometimes it feels more like a cattle prod!)

You say that but your quote Romans 10:9-10 and even it tells us that we must do something to be saved.
It says we have to confess with the mouth (a works of man) and believe in our heart (more works of man as it requires us to do more than merely make a mental assent to the idea but actually incorporate His teachings into our life).  So the very verse you use to prove your point contradicts the very point you make.  And that verse is not alone there are dozens of verses that make it very clear that acceptance of the free gift is not done through faith alone.

Ahhhh.,..only from one who insists that we must "complete" the "incomplete" work of Christ could we see the understanding that the "work" of confession and belief is indeed a work of the flesh. Please consider:
Eph 2:8   For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9   Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Plainly declares that a gift (grace) saves us by faith, and that faith is not something that comes from us, but is also a gift (grace) from God. As Jesus said to Peter, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you, but my Father which is in heaven". In addition, Jesus also said that "no man cometh (to me) except the Father draw him", which again removes it from the category of "works".
Finally, consider again what you say...."acceptance of the free gift is not done through faith alone", which is somewhat oxymoronic. If we must accomplish a task, or a series of tasks to receive a gift, then that gift is not free...it is being bought and paid for by the fulfillment of the tasks. A gift is either free, or it is not...it cannot be both (law of non-contradiction).
"Works" of grace are completely distinguishable from works of the flesh, or will.


*snip* long series of scriptures designed to "reinforce" the requirement of work to receive salvation.


   

No you are mistaken we must do something to accept the gift, otherwise we would all be saved.  That something would be a living faith, one inseparable from works.

As shown above, we do not "do", He does it....we acknowledge it....and that is not a "work", it is grace. That "works meet for repentence" flow naturally from the grace received is the living faith you refer to, but to reiterate...it comes from, rather than preceeding grace...and the grace is not contingent upon that living faith, since such contingency would automatically make it "works (upon which) man could boast".

But we have to realize that not all works imply merit.

Abundantly agreed. The preacher who preaches the same tired old sermon on the same day every year for 35 years just because a calendar says to falls into that category...the same as the person who makes a special donation to a church so that a new wing, or library, or book, or pew can be named after them.

If you give a helium balloon to your 3 year old and tell them to hold on tight and not let go - they do not suddenly merit this free gift, you gave them out of love, just because they obeyed you and accept the gift in the manner you instructed them to.  The same is true of the works we are told to do in the Gospel.

Why did I give my 3 year old a balloon? Because I loved him (her)? Or because they had done something special? And if I gave it to them out of love (as you specify), did I then accompany it with a long list of "honey-do's" before they could keep it? Pardon, but this is not a particularly good analogy...especially with the phraseology used.

Actually to think the play on words is Greek is a beginners understanding of the verse.  The play on words is in Aramaic and that is why your analysis that Peter is a movable form of stone is erroneous.

Just a quick note about the play being in Aramaic. There are no extant Aramaic texts considered to be original...only copies of well documented GREEK texts, which contain the "petros" "petras" appellations. Since the Aramaic also does not contain a gender pointer for "ke-phas", it was necessary to be translated (into Aramaic from the Greek) as identical in both instances.

The rock on which the Church is founded is not Peter, but Peter's confession, "thou art the Christ". (Matt. 16:16).  Matt. 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8 unambiguously states that Christ is the Rock. Paul explicitly states, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". (1 Cor. 3:11). To take Peter as the foundation flatly contradicts this passage.
It is clear that a difference between Peter and the foundation is meant or the word "petros" would simply have been repeated. "Petros", therefore, shows Peter's instability, (e.g., Matt. 16:22-23) while "petra" indicates the immovable rock-like character of Christ, or the confession of Peter, "thou art the Christ."

This is I do not deny.  The Church is all these things and I even some Popes may spend eternity in hell (it is not for me to judge though).  But the Church is something more than that, there are good leaders in the Church as well and God has promised that the Church (it's hierarchy who we go to for resolution of disagreements and who feed the sheep) will be protected from error in matters of doctrine.  That the Church as an organization would always be blessed with leaders who would be protected from leading Christ's Church into error and unorthodoxy.

How, if the RCC has been promised divine protection to prevent false leadership (and interpretation), could there be  "sme Popes (who) may spend eternity in hell..."?

The Church has always seen Jesus Christ as it's head.  They recognize salvation only comes through Christ.

Isn't this statement at odds with all the scriptures you posted concerning what we have to do?

Phi 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
When was the last time you saw a Protestant do that routinely?

With ADR, let's please not do such body slams to scripture in wresting them completely out of context. Aside from that, is that the criteria for determining whether or not one belongs to Christ? Does bowing the knee at the mention of His name automatically make one a "better" or "more-saved" Christian?


Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura.
 

Michael:
Let me begin by saying I am not, and did not intend anything to be taken as RCC bashing....so please try to adopt a little less defensive/offensive tone. Second, on the assumption that you ascribe to Jesus' atonement and resurrection as the basis of your salvation, then I recognize (assume, accept) that you are a brother in Christ, not an enemy.  Considering that a recent encyclical reiterated the RCC position that salvation cannot be found outside of the RCC, I doubt you would accord me the same honor, and therein lies the crux of disagreement.

Quote:
What God does not like is anyone with the unmitigated gall to declare that their church is the "one true church" and the only holder of truth.

Do you have scripture to back up that claim or is it just your personal opinion (putting words in God's mouth if it comes from outside of sola scriptura).

Isa 10:1 Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness [which] they have prescribed;
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].
Luk 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Rev 2:6   But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 2:9   I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:15   So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:20   Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 3:9   Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Eze 8:12   Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
Eze 8:13   He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, [and] thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
Eze 8:14   Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which [was] toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
Eze 8:15   Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man? turn thee yet again, [and] thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
Eze 8:16   And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, [were] about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
Eze 8:17   Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
Eze 8:18   Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, [yet] will I not hear them.

There are many more verses in scripture that are plainly an indictment by God against those who claim to speak for Him when they indeed do not...and that includes (see Nicaolaitans) those who claim they are the sole holder of truth.

But guess what I did not declare the Church I attend to be the "oone true Church" - Jesus did in the very first verse where the word appears.
Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

An open declaration was unnecessary, since what you say is the same thing promulgated by the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox church, and the Mormons, and the Branch Davidians, and the JW's, and ........on and on. As to your interpretation of what Jesus meant, that is dealt with later.

Due to post length, it is continued below

Fats:
My priviledge and honor.

The rest of the reply, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is an argument for the Teleological Proof for the existence of God. I have been aware of the pros and cons behind the 3 main different arguments for the existence of God, namely the Cosmological argument, the Teleological argument and the Ontological argument.

Just mho...although both the cosmological and ontological arguments are soundly constructed, they tend to be  more circular and thus less rational than the teological. Also, the teleo argument is the one single argument that finds itself in complete harmony with the Word of God.

Look forward to more.

[One shall say, I [am] the LORD'S; and another shall call [himself] by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe [with] his hand unto the LORD, and surname [himself] by the name of Israel.]

Michael Legna says:

Certainly there can be no division in God’s one true Church but God certainly is smart enough to recognize that what man recognizes as divisions are indeed true divisions cutting each Church that suffers under these erroneous doctrines off from the one true Church.  So yes God does recognize these divisions, He just doesn’t recognize them as being within the one true Church.

Isa 44:3   For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
Isa 44:4   And they shall spring up [as] among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
Isa 44:5   One shall say, I [am] the LORD'S; and another shall call [himself] by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe [with] his hand unto the LORD, and surname [himself] by the name of Israel.
Isa 44:6   Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

1Cr 12:5   And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cr 12:6   And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

What God does not like is anyone with the unmitigated gall to declare that their church is the "one true church" and the only holder of truth.

No where in the scriptures doe it tell us that Christ’s finished work was all that was needed for us to be saved

"Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it" (Ecclesiastes 3:14).

Rom 10:9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now, if Christ's wonderful work of paying for our forgiveness and salvation is finished, what is there left for us to do to implement it for ourselves personally?

There is nothing left for us to do! "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). One does not receive a free gift by working for it, or by doing something more to be sure he gets it.

He can refuse to accept it, of course, if he does not want it. But if he considers the proffered gift to be desirable, and truly wants to have it, he must simply accept it gratefully, thanking the one providing it. "In (Christ) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7).

We are saved, of course, entirely by God's grace, plus nothing. We then, however, become "His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

[that which may be known of God is manifest in them]

Hi Fats:

Welcome to the board.

As a self-confessed agnostic, I take it that you "don't know that there is, or is not, a God". Secondly, what you don't want to hear is some kind of recitation of doctrine.

Ok...first off the bat, we need to establish whether there is, or is not, a God, a supreme being worthy of being called God, and I think what I hear you saying is that you want some kind of "proof". What kind of proof do you want, Fats? Are you wanting empirical proof, like a scientist would want, or will a reasoned and rational look at things that exist suffice to tilt you one way or the other?

Without being dogmatic about it, I would like to present you with some scripture.

First, you've probably heard it said that in the book of Genesis, it is said that God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them. It also says that until a certain point, there was nothing (void), and that God spoke the worlds and things into existence.

Here's a scripture from the book of Romans, where it says:
Rom 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them

Here, God is simply saying that all things that exist show His hand in their creation, and that God is (and has) shown those things to us. Of course, there are a lot of people who deny any possibility of "intelligent design", or "special creation", and insist that we, and everything, just happened....a fortuitous set of circumstances resulting in.....us!

 
Rom 1:20   For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here, God is saying that although He is invisible, He has left His imprint and mark on everything that is, and that we (and the animals, and the earth, and the heavens) KNOW this, deep down inside.  Because we know it (even if we deny it), we are then left with no excuse before Him of denying His existence.

OK...so what? Well, take a little trip. Go outside. If you have a flower bed, so much the better...if not, just sit down in some grass, or grab a leaf from a tree.  Begin to examine it...carefully. Consider how it works, and what it does. That leaf, which is full of chlorophyll, has the ability to pass off oxygen, which it makes fromt he sugars produced by the root system which absorbs minerals and water and converts them into that sugar....and at the same time, the leaf absorbs carbon dioxide (very deadly to us, whereas oxygen is good!). And, surprises of all surprises, that carbon dioxide happens to be the primary ingredient required by the root system to convert minerals and water into sugar.  Quite a system, don't you think?

Now, look around....if it weren't for trees, and grass, and other good green things doing all this metabolizing, then the oxygen content on this ole earth would be different. Are you aware that if the oxy content were 1.5% higher than it is, or 1.5% lower than it is, then all life as we know it would cease to exist? Conversely, if the CO2 were off by a percent or two, the same thing?

And that's just the beginning. Life on this earth is wondrously wrought life, complex beyond imagination, and so absolutely interrelated and interdependent that it boggles the mind to consider that....it was all an accident...life....just happened.

Space doesn't really permit examining so many other things....such as the way the water cycle works....or how the planets balance each other...or the fact that if this earth were just a few thousand miles closer or further from the sun, we would not be here.....or the way the universe is expanding....faster, not slower as was thought for so long....or the way everything seems to be held together (and apart) by some mysterious form of energy.

God is. While science may never find adequate "proof", rationalism and reason can.

The ball is in your court...we're here to help you in whatever way we can.

Was Jonah a real person?

Consider this passage from 2 Kings:

2Ki 14:23   In the fifteenth year of Amaziah the son of Joash king of Judah Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel began to reign in Samaria, [and reigned] forty and one years.
2Ki 14:24   And he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD: he departed not from all the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin.
2Ki 14:25   He restored the coast of Israel from the entering of Hamath unto the sea of the plain, according to the word of the LORD God of Israel, which he spake by the hand of his servant Jonah, the son of Amittai, the prophet, which [was] of Gathhepher.

Note that here the scribes were speaking of, and recording the names of people about whom no question arises concerning their existence. Historical records denote that Amaziah indeed was the son of Joash, and that he had a brother Jeroboam who began to reign in a a real place called Judah. In verse 25, we see that Jeroboam received a word from the LORD via a prophet from Gathhepher (an actual place), this prophets name was Jonah, and he was the son of Amittai, also a prophet.

Why, if Jonah were not a real person, would the scribes have inserted a fictitious name into an account of real people and places? Does it make sense that they would do so?

Now, consider what Jesus said:

Mat 12:38   Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39   But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40   For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41   The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Mat 12:42   The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.

Notice that Jesus is speaking to real people, and He makes reference to a prophet by the name of Jonas (Jonah). Further, He specifically mentions the great sign that attaches to Jonah, namely that he was swallowed (in the belly of) a whale (sea monster), and Jesus also specifically names Nineveh (a real place) as being people who heard the preaching of this (supposedly) non-existent figment of someones overactive imagination. Jesus also makes reference to the queen of the south (the Queen of Sheba), a real person, and another very well known and attested to personage.....Solomon.

Why would Jesus (the way, the TRUTH and the life) pass off as real a person who didn't exist? Especially right in the middle of mentioning so many other real people and places?

Finally, consider this:
Jon 1:1   Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
Jon 1:2   Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Here we see that Jonah claims as his father a man named Amittai....exactly the same as spoken in 2 Kings 14:25.  He then says that he was sent by God to Nineveh, just as Jesus recounts in Mat. 12:41.

It stands to reason that not only was Jonah a real person, but that he probably wrote the book also, even though the book does not claim he is the author...but it is certainly more "first person" in knowledge and style than otherwise.

Finally, did Jonah really get swallowed and then spit up by a big fish? Well, according to the skeptics and scholars, that would be a physical impossibility. At the very least, according to them, 3 days and nites in the digestive juices of a sea dwelling creature would have probably reduced him to a formless mass of protoplasm....or at least have wrinkled his skin pretty severely, and caused massive hair loss!

Let's look at:
Jon 1:4   But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
Jon 1:17   Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Doesn't it make sense that a mighty and powerful God who could create a storm, and send it just to bug this ship that had His fleeing prophet on it,  and had also appointed a great fish to be there at the right place and time to swallow Jonah, could (and would) MIRACULOUSLY PROTECT Jonah? We're talking here about a God who could have put a Sheraton Suites room with a jacuzzi in that fishes belly!!

Well...it seems that from scripture, we have our answer as to whether or not Jonah was real. And if he was real, why should we doubt that he wrote about what happened? And if that is also true, why should we doubt that what he says happened, actually happened?

Uh-oh....I just heard someone say "well, you're using the Bible to prove the Bible...and that's circular reasoning, and that's a fallacy".

The Bible is not one book....it is 66 books. It doesn't have one author...it has at least 44.  And it wasn't written all at one time....it took 1500 years to be completed.  So when  one book (Matthew) cites one person (Jesus) as attesting to the reality of another person (Jonah), and a second book (2Kings) also attests to that same person, that is called independent verification....not circular reasoning.

Jonah was real. And so was de fish, and so is de story!!

Thus saith the LORD.

Hi all....some good answers along the way.

If I may, I would like to point something out, from scripture, that could possibly give us a little bit of a handle as the "when" aspect.  

Read with me:
Act 16:16   And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Act 16:17   The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:18   And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Please notice, from verse 18, that this damsel, possessed, followed them around for "many" days. How many is many? I dunno....but probably more than 2.  So what we have is a spirit filled, multiple gifted Apostle by the name of Paul being dogged for many days by a demonically influenced person.

I'm pretty sure that Paul knew what was going on, and knew it from the get-go. He wasn't exactly a dum-dum, especially in the spiritual arena.

So why? Why did he "allow" it to continue?

I'm convinced (and this is MHO) that it was simply because he did not have the release from the Holy Spirit to rebuke and dispossess that spirit. But when the Spirit gave Paul the nod, and said "do it", Paul did it.
I'm pretty sure that Paul was grieved because he had to chafe under the mocking for several days, but also knew that until he had release, whatever he did would have been in his own power, and therefore not in the will of God.

Jesus went to the Temple many times during His ministry, and I'm sure the money-changers and offering sellers were there....but He only did a number on them twice. Why?

Listen for (and to) that still, small voice, then be assured that whatever is done is in the Father's will.

With all the recent "examination" of various parts of scripture (mostly relating to Jesus, John and Paul) by the media, there have been a lot of postulations (and posturing) by some so-called "scholars".

The book of Jonah, according to most of these scholars, is (A) not about a real person, (B) not written by a real person, and (C) tells a story that is impossible, therefore it also can't be real.

What's your take on Jonah?  And did a big fish really swallow him up?

I think that I like the idea of an armed pastor (just a little humor until later)

Thanks for the welcome BEP. Actually, it didn't used to be that humorous. Back in the 1800's there were a lot of the old Methodist circuit riders that wore badges too! They figured as long as they were riding and preaching, they could be "God's appointed servant" and help enforce the law of the land.  Wrote a song about 'em, once upon a time.

Blessings

Name of the church is Conoley Community Church (and school). It was started back in 1859, so it's been around a while.

Hi Wolf...
Thanks for the welcome.
The church is located outside of Thorndale, in the Conoley Community (little farming area), that was settled in the 1830's...Church was founded in 1859. Most of the members were in the original group of founders  

If you need directions, just holler. We've got some who come from Bryan, Taylor and Elgin.

Blessings

Hi all:
I'm BroHank, but that doesn't mean anything at all.
I'm a follower of and believer in Jesus Christ, and that means everything.

Currently, I'm pastor of a small independent community church located in central Texas, editor and co-publisher of a monthly Christian newspaper, webmaster of two Christian websites, Gospel musician/singer along with my bride of 37 years, and evangelist. I also make tents by being a graphic artist.

In my spare time.................

In my past, I've been: a law enforcement officer (large metro agency), professional and recording studio musician, music store manager and music teacher, insurance salesman, car salesman (how bad can it get?), and a few other things I'd rather not mention.

Hope to get to know all of you better, especially at homecoming.