[Well, just to be picky -]

Well, just to be picky -

Surly you would never cause a 'stranger' to labour... Like the guy who works so the computers can be on line or the sanatation guy when you use water. or the folks at the electric company no lights, hair driers etc. on in your home from sundown to Friday to sundown Saturday?
 
Most people don't work the weekends anyway.

Is that so? Well....grocery store and department store clerks; hairdressers; policemen and firemen; doctors and nurses; child care workers; factory shift workers; car dealerships; car washes; gas stations; convenience stores; fast food employees; coffee shops; restaurant workers; newspaper staff and deliverers; towtruck, taxicab & ambulance drivers; airline pilots, stewardesses and grounds crew; pastors, preachers and priests; I could go on and on, but you get the drift. People do work on the weekends, whether it is Saturday or Sunday.[/b]

And how sad..that no person, who attends Sunday worship services understands that fact !

Sunday keepers resisits the truth, that Jesus spoke !
They deny that he is the way, by their lifestlyes.

Because I attend worship service at a church building on Sunday doesn't mean I don't also worship God every other day of the week and understand fully what that means -

Mar 14:49  I was with you daily in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.

Luk 9:23  And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Act 2:46  And continuing with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
Act 2:47  praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Act 16:5  Then indeed the churches were established in the faith and increased in number daily.

And further, Jesus himself taught/worked and set the example:

Mat 12:1  At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the sabbath day. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the heads of grain and to eat.
Mat 12:2  But when the Pharisees saw, they said to Him, Behold, your disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3  But He said to them, Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him,
Mat 12:4  how he entered into the house of God and ate the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5  Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are blameless?
Mat 12:6  But I say to you that One greater than the temple is in this place.
Mat 12:7  But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.
Mat 12:8  For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.
Mat 12:11  And He said to them, What man among you will be, who will have one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the sabbaths, will he not lay hold on it and lift it out?
Mat 12:12  How much better is a man then than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.


Mar 2:23  And it happened that He went through the grainfields on the sabbath day. And as they walked His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain.
Mar 2:24  And the Pharisees said to Him, Behold, why do they do that which is not lawful on the sabbath day?
Mar 2:25  And He said to them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need and was hungry, he, and those with him?
Mar 2:26  How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat, except for the priests, and also gave to those with him?
Mar 2:27  And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake.
Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.

Mar 3:1  And He again entered into the synagogue. And a man was there who had a withered hand.
Mar 3:2  And they watched Him to see if He would heal him on the sabbath day, so that they might accuse Him.
Mar 3:3  And He said to the man who had the withered hand, Arise! Come into the middle.
Mar 3:4  And He said to them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? To save life, or to kill? But they were silent.


Luk 13:14  And answering, the synagogue ruler, being angry because Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, said to the crowd, There are six days in which it is right to work. Therefore in them come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15  And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen his ox or ass from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink?
Luk 13:16  And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham whom Satan has bound, lo these eighteen years, be loosened from this bond on the Sabbath day?

Joh 5:16  And therefore the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.

Joh 5:18  Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.

Joh 9:14  And it was a sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

Joh 9:16  Therefore some of the Pharisees said, This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath. Others said, How can a man, a sinner, do such miracles? And there was a division among them.  

In Christ
Gracey

Gracey,

What is your take on this poem?  

I'm sure you agree with it being that you posted it.  

Hello, Neil (street preacher).

I do agree with it, actually. I have learned from experience that people will listen and not close you off if you approach them with love....if you show them Christ by example, rather than by mouth....it's easy to talk the love of Christ, but Christ didn't just teach by talking....he set the example that I must live up to.

To me this poem doesn't say that I accept all those things I disagree with; or that I pat the secular world on the back and say it's okay; to me it means that I can accept the person with love, because Christ loved me first (sin and all) and then go from there.

How can you ever plant the seed if you don't get your hands dirty, and get on your knees?

The poem maybe has an overly simplistic way of saying it. But most of the people I have shared with become willing to hear the "curses" if they've first heard the "promises". Maybe that's not the way everywhere, and I think we must approach each individual in whatever way their nature will permit. If Christ did it, so can I.

I think that this poem encompasses much of what is wrong with the modern evangelism in the church today.  Let's not give people Jesus unless....  Unless we accept their views mixed in w/ ours?  Unless we are best friends first?  Unless  we can keep from offending them?  And my personal favorite,,, until they ask us to tell them about Jesus....

I don't believe this poem is about making friends first....It's about attitude; it's about approaching your already friends and family; it's about approaching strangers as you would approach a friend.

Do you think that this poem is condemning certain types of witnessing?  Is it telling me that I have to make friends w/ someone in order to witness to them and that witnessing to strangers is wrong?  Is that what it means to "talk to people about my beliefs (Jesus Christ and his infallible gospel) and walk away".  I talk to people about Jesus all the time and then walk away.  That's what seed planting is.  Does this poem condemn that practice?

I know what seed planting is....I do it all the time, not by preaching at people, but by helping people and speaking with them and getting "in" there....not standing on a soapboax (I'm not saying that you do, please don't get me wrong). I have seen so many people who "preach the bible", but don't preach the Word.

People who have little or nothing in life, people who have no hope, people who have no family or friends....they need more than that. They need a loving hand to touch them; a sandwich and cofee; a new coat or shoes; or just a hug, along with telling them of Jesus - in other words, they need to see "Jesus in action".

I don't believe this poem is condemning street preaching. But if the only thing you ever do is preach Jesus and then walk away without offering anything else, what does that say to these people about the love of Christ?

I am here to plant as much seed as I can until the day that God calls me home.  Is what I am doing wrong according to this poem?

I don't see the poem as saying that is wrong at all. I guess I just see the poem as a way of reminding us that it's one thing to preach, and another to teach.

As for the part regarding being right and being wrong when I give you Jesus?  When could I be wrong when giving someone Jesus?  Giving someone Jesus is always right.

I don't believe the poem says that at all. I believe it's talking about personal opinion....certainly you've met people who think they are right no matter what the situation. I believe this part speaks to our being humble, instead of hauty.

As for giving someone Jesus being always right....I would have to agree, although there are those out there who preach a very twisted view of the word.

I will tell them the dangers and concequences of their opinion with a Holy urgencey.

In my experience "fire and brimstone" scares people and seldom wins a willing soul.

I just do not agree  with the "friendship evangelism" approach to witnessing as the exclusive way to win souls.

I don't believe it's the exclusive way either, and I don't consider it to be "friendship" evangelism, but "love" evangelism, which, from the way I see it, is what Jesus taught us through His loving sacrifice.

We would have to say the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4 was a "stranger" to Jesus.  He didn't wait to establish a meaningful relationship with her in order to be able to speak into her life.  He simply struck up a conversation w/ her and then spoke the truth in love to a woman who didn't even know who he was....and he was effective.  The greatest sermon ever preached in Matthew 5 was spoken to the multitudes in the open air.  Not to a bunch of Jesus' closest friends or to those hanging around the Temple.

I agree with all of this of course. I never said the poem was the most effective way for everyone; on the other hand, not everyone can witness in the same way. God has made ways for all of us.

Suppose it is Sep. 10 2001 and you are in NYC about to deliver a message to 1000 people working in Tower 2 of the World Trade Center.  Your message,,,, The Gospel of Jesus Christ.  You are fully aware of the attacks that are about to take place the following day and you have one chance to deliver the message to these souls about to step into eternity.  How would you approach your message?  
would you mention death, judgement, heaven and hell, concequences of sin, repentance, salvation through Jesus Christ?  Even if meant offending them or "appearing" narrow-minded and judgemental?  I certainly hope so.

It isn't about how we appear; it's about love. I suppose to some it might not matter (not saying this is you...not at all) why a person accepts Christ as their saviour, but the most effective warriors for Christ are definitely those who accept his sacrifice out of thanksgiving for what He did, not those who are scared they will go to hell when they die. I've known many people who accepted Christ out of that fear, and although they might be "saved" from the lake of fire, they are not living a Christian life, nor are they effectively witnessing to anyone. I guess if you only want to count the souls you win, then it doesn't matter (again...I'm not saying this is you...you is such a broad term...I just mean people in general). Helping to change a person's eternity is good (no more lake of fire, instead, blessed heaven). I have always felt the need (desire?) to do more than that though; to show them how they can live their life for Christ's purposes, and not our own. It's more than winning souls....but it does start with seed planting.

Some plant seeds, some water, some weed, etc. Does that mean the concept in this poem is wrong? In your post you said that "friendship evangelism is what is wrong with evangelism" (or something to that effect, sorry I'm doing this from the edit mode and can't look back at it). That's making a judgement on how someone else fits into God's plan. I think we all have a part to play and God equips us to do our part.

From my point of view, though, I don't ever win any souls to Christ....He does that himself. I just show them what Christ is all about.

I just do not accept this poem as the Biblical model of how to reach the lost for Christ.

Well, no one said you have to, but not everybody can witness in the same way. It is but one way that people can reach the lost and shine the light of Jesus on them. We are a varied and diverse people and I believe God uses us and gifts us in whatever way we will be most effective for His purposes. We are not all "preachers"....nor teachers....nor prophets.... I could quote the verse if I need to, but I suspect you already know it.  

I know that your heart is pure before God.  I certainly do not question that.I love you enough to be completely honest.

Likewise.

In all honesty, I didn't see that anyone would take that poem in the way that you had. Although the writer was anonymous, it was written by a teenager who had hoped to help other teens reach out and I felt it was very effective.

I appreciate your honesty and your opinions. Thank you.

In Christ
Gracey

Good advice, Stephen. I agree with you and I believe we all struggle with this....sometimes it's just not easy to love someone whose qualities are, ahhh shall we say, "less than pleasing".

I spent a lot of time and heartache trying to learn this, but God is so gracious to me! One thing He said....one simple but oh so heartwrenching thing; "I have loved you...."

I learned that I don't have to like everyone; I don't have to associate with everyone; but I do have to love everyone, because Christ loves everyone, regardless of sin. I don't have to like the sin, or condone the sin.

For me, the best way is to look at others through the eyes of Christ....I ask myself, how does He see this person? It gets a little easier as time goes by, but, still....there are times....

"from whom much is given, much is expected"

Gracey

I am not into the "tithing" thing....giving back a tenth in my book is kind of a cop out.....

in the bible the widow gave only 2 mites, but it was everything she had and Christ looked on that very small donation as a greater gift than the much given by the rich.

The point really is....are you giving to the church, or are you giving back to God what is really His to begin with?

It isn't always about what you give to "the church". There are many ways to give into God's storehouse....including charities; the poor; streetpeople; missions; etc.

God has provided everything I need in life....if He wants it back, I give it. Before I give any amount I spend time in prayer asking God "what shall I give"....sometimes it's more than I have; sometimes it seems too small, but always we should be obedient to God and His word.

Giving is (or should be) an act of love and gratitude; of praise and worship. If you give grudgingly, rather than joyfully, it is not a pleasing sacrifice to Him.

What you give or don't give should come from your heart and your love for God.

Gracey

In my humble opinion, Maybe stop praying for her to call... and start praying for God to have His will and way in your life concerning this lady!? Maybe also start praying that If she is indeed the rgith lady for you that God will help her to see that, and If indeed she is not the will of God for you. pray that God will help you get over her and help you find the right one for you. I know that might sound to simple or to small a thing to do but i beleive that God answers our every prayer, sometimes its just that we are expecting one answer and we are getting another.. Dont quit praying.,. just maybe change the prayer a little! That my friend is my 2 cents worth!
Tigerlily

I agree with this. Persistence in prayer is an essential, but always our prayers should be for God's will and not our own...

Gracey

???Does anyone else think that God talks to you through your dreams. Maybe sending someone you've lost into your dreams to give you a message??? Almost a year ago, this happend to me!! It was kind of odd, especially when a friend of mine had the same dream, in her own prospective!!!

Peachykeen, if I tell you my dream do you think you could analyze it???

Yes, I believe God does speak to us through dreams. But (this is a big "but") one must be very careful to understand and know the difference between the "stuff of our minds" and the communication of God. It's not an easy thing.

Also, I don't believe that all dreams have meaning....the stuff of our minds creates an incredible about of floatsam in our subconcious .... some dreams are just the clearing of the processor, so to speak.

For me (personally), when God does speak to me through a dream, I know it....absolutely know it. There is a difference between that type of dream and my normal dreams...

I'm not sure about "sending someone you've lost into your dreams to give you a message".....if God wants to speak to you through your dreams, he doesn't need to do that and I would be rather careful about that.

Gracey

NOTE: If you use firefox, do not download the ActiveX plug-in. The ActiveX control in IE is one of it's biggest security flaws. If you go to a website that requires ActiveX (like windows update) then use IE for that website and then go back to firefox when done.

Are you aware that just having IE on your computer affords the same opening as if you were using it, even when you aren't?  For instance, for some people, even with mozilla set as a default, have found when access their "hotmail" acccount (personally, I would ditch hotmail)  msn will automatically use ie to open email. Microsoft is a big pain. I wonder what would happen if  IE wasn't installed? Would msn just use the browser that's there? Or would it not open the mail at all?

There's ways to uninstall  IE(but not without a lot of headaches and then, maybe, windows update won't work and various other ms goodies may not either-personally I don't think that's any big loss), but if not, you should have "protection" provided by outside developers.

There is a program (forgotten the name as you need to purchase it, and I didn't) that was developed to replace IE (something or other lite) and the developers specifically developed it to work on all those sites that will only work with IE.

Personally, when I can find a way to completely uninstall IE without wrecking my op system totally (that would be a miracle since it's pretty crummy to begin with), I probably will do it and put out the money for something else.

I do know, though, that IE is more fully integrated with Windows XP than with previous ops, and that makes it harder to uninstall (although, probably not impossible for one so inclined).

Everyone should run Firefox in my opinion *grin*
http://getfirefox.com

Hi George.....believe it or not, Mozilla browsers are not a happy thing on my computer. I personally like it (mozilla), however, IE seems to have developed a mind of it's own and refuses to allow any other browser....(shades of "Hal").

Actually, I'm quite sure it's the ops, more so than the browser, but anyway, my computer could easily take it's cue from Hal!

Gracey

You left out one choice: all of the above.

Also, "help" is a very broad word....how do you define it? Helping ones enemies can mean praying for them; sharing the good news of Jesus Christ with them, feeding them....it can also mean "aiding and abetting" which you don't want to do.

Jesus died for all of us. How can you pick and choose who to help? How do you know that the enemy has not been put in your path for just such an occasion as to allow him/her to see Christ? Sometimes, it's the wealthy who need help the most. Different help from the poor, maybe, but still they are/can be as lost as the street beggar.

I guess I'd have to say we decide who to help based on who Jesus would help.

When somebody comes across my path who needs help they get it (if I can do it....and I can do all things through Christ) and if it is helpful...the glory doesn't belong to me, but to God.

blessings
Gracey

First off:  There is NOTHING TO FEAR!

THIS MESSAGE IS COMING TO YOU AS A WARNING.

The angels have turned on humanity.  

They have fallen like Lucifer.

The chief among these newly fallen angels is the archangel Michael.

Remember: The best defense is AWARENESS.


Peace of Jesus Christ Be With you.

Where is the proof of this?

your big screen TV!

Don't own one....in fact rarely watch tv, don't go to the movies, either; don't own a big stereo; drive a 1985 ford; live in an old house; buy used clothes....in other words, most of what we do have is pretty basic.

Including your computer

...it was a gift from God...a blessing. Why should I throw it back....I can (and most certainly do) follow Christ even though I own a computer.

I AGREE (Brother Love) with Hebrews 13:8.  Jesus Christ IS the same in every way and every day.

If you agree that He is the same "in every WAY and every day" then the rest of your statement appears to contradict you.

GOD never changes - how he deals with or dealt with mankind has changed.

It is mankind who changes; it is mankind who makes changes in God's word; it is mankind who thinks God deals differently; God's plan is the same as it has always been.

But I must say, it was definitely refreshing and much more pleasureable to see (what I take to be) your own words for a change.  

Gracey

Hallelujah, amen

For instance: In Genesis 1:29 man was told to eat every herb bearing seed and the fruit of trees yielding seed. In Gen. 9:3, he could also eat animals, and later in Leviticus 11, only certain animals. But still later, he may eat anything, I Tim. 4:4, 5. (Note "may"-if there is something that is not helpful to you personally, of course avoid it). No one could obey all of these at the same time, and such is not intended.

This is not a direct biblical quote.

This is:

Gen 1:29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

1Ti 4:4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


But the point is made. You reply with someone else's work. Put aside the word of others and use the word of God, from the word of God, not from another person's bible study.

It would be much more helpful in coming to understand you and your views, personally, than always reading someone else's work (even if you agree with that work).

Gracey

C'mon DW, where's the next one?    

[In other words, book, chapter, verse, folks.]

Let us pray that the debate is backed by the words and doctrines of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Holy Spirit inspired word and not mere men's opinions on these words and doctrines. In other words, book, chapter, verse, folks.

Have at it.

Agreed.

In other words, book, chapter, verse, folks.